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yea ranged attackers(bows/crossbows/firearms and sometimes spellcasters) attack squishies. not sure if they target lowest armor (none on rogue, aloths armor on cypher) lowest hp, lowest defence, by class or by position

PIllars of eternty (Hard) 1st playtrough: 155h, 38 m (main Ranger with bear(bow), Eder, Durance(off tank), Hirvais(off tank), Kana(ranged), Aloth/GM)
PIllars of eternty (PtoD) 2nd playtrough: 88h 30 m (main Bleak Walker Paladin, Eder, Barbarian, Monk, Rogue (ranged) Cypher(wand)
(not counting reloads and experimenting)
status i love the game, hate the bugs, and wish for better AI and Pathfinding

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/78749-needed-qualyty-of-life-improvements-information-and-transparency/

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Second Chance items change knockouts, especially when they want to avoid losing too much health as they allow that character to disengage, come back and return ignored. If health is low enough once they come back I switch them out to ranged or burn spells which leaves Eder and Pallegina somewhat screwed if get taking out because they're the only ones without ranged weps for my party.

 

As for what I think of engagement. My second game with IE mod installed and it disabled has  made the combat more interesting if only because it's more dynamic now allowing me to send in squishable high DPS melees and then work out ways of saving them, sometimes with them having to kite mobs chasing them while the rest of the party is busy, IMO something I love to see and haven't experienced since playing Everquest.

 

For me the game drops off both story wise and gameplay wise once you get to the third town in Act III and it actually feels more like the middle of a game than nearing the ending of one (but then again, the entire game feels like an Act I). The antagonist and his group are a big left down. Given how much he factors into the early game, Raedric and resolving the problem in Gilded Vale come off feeling like they have more impact and the crisis has more urgency given the short-term inevitability that there''ll be almost no one left alive soon enough if nothing is done.

 

Actually when I think about it, having the game be centered around Raedric might have been better, been a smaller, more focused conflict within a greater crisis that is seemingly inexplicable and remote. To extend that story beyond one act, just change it to where you need to travel to the other parts of realm for plot reasons like needing to gather political support in order to resolve things in the manner you want.

 

Characters are interesting, there's just not much done with them with them talking about us being a party together and doing stuff when it feels like almost nothings been done with them. Durance and Grieving Mother seem to be the only ones you really have conversations and evolution. Tana's storyline can be wrapped up very quickly while Aloth's story seems poorly paced with too little hinting and foreshadowing and an underwhelming ending (worst than most, all companion quests are underwhelming given how little is done and given how they all seem to conclude in the same manner).

Edited by Beastro
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[...]

 

But the worst as I see it, is how people compare the 'boring' PoE combat to that of BG1-2. If one of those games had same combat tactics over and over, tha would definitely be BG(1 and 2). If you had casters, you had to play rock-paper-scissors to break their defenses, or have a berserker rush them, or have the Paladin kit's strong dispel turn them to puppies.

 

[...]

 

I think it's funny that you criticize it, yet you mention no less than three distinct ways to deal with them. Three ways out of a small mountain.

 

In PoE? What do you do? You.. tank them, and spank them. Preferably in a doorway.

t50aJUd.jpg

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Having the same problems with the enemy A.I. and pathfinding..

 

Three lions 'stuck' and can't figure out how to go around a tree to my ranged characters. So they're standing there doing nothing. Here's a video of it.

 

 

 

 

Took on some feral druids. My ranged characters don't wear any armour and just let them walk into enemy AoE's. I understand why the aoe's and afflictions cease to continue after combat because they're combat spells. Once combat ends, everything ends including aoe's and afflictions. And the best way to end afflictions and aoe's is to end combat as fast as possible.

 

 

 

Edited by Hiro Protagonist II
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Saving combat will take more than some AI tweekes.

They need to return Health as only resource that be healed by per rest spells, per rest talents or one use potions.

They need to add immunities to monsters and more abilities like stun, knockdown, petrify, charm or confuse or give those to more enemies.

Put in more interesting encounters with traps, ambushes, unreachable archers and such.

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[...]

 

But the worst as I see it, is how people compare the 'boring' PoE combat to that of BG1-2. If one of those games had same combat tactics over and over, tha would definitely be BG(1 and 2). If you had casters, you had to play rock-paper-scissors to break their defenses, or have a berserker rush them, or have the Paladin kit's strong dispel turn them to puppies.

 

[...]

 

I think it's funny that you criticize it, yet you mention no less than three distinct ways to deal with them. Three ways out of a small mountain.

 

In PoE? What do you do? You.. tank them, and spank them. Preferably in a doorway.

 

 

You know, I agree with most of your thoughts on the weaknesses of PoE's combat, but reducing the ideal strategy to a little rhyme like that doesn't actually make an argument for how simple it is.

 

In PoE, you tank them and spank them.

In BG1, you sight them and kite them.

In BG2, you breach them and teach them (a lesson in pain).

 

Rhyming is fun, but each of these rhyming words is representative of a larger concept.

"Forsooth, methinks you are no ordinary talking chicken!"

-Protagonist, Baldur's Gate

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You're not really trying to compare PoE's combat with Bg2's in any way, are you.

 

Because that would be Absurd.

 

Edit: And, objectively speaking, it would also be unfair for both titles, since in BG2's case, developers had the benefit of being able to refine and build upon both a previous title, and an already existing Ruleset, while PoE doesn't have the luxury of either one.

 

And of course there's the Obvious unfairness: PoE was SPCIFICALLY designed to have one, straight-forward, uniform combat system, while BG2's is based on 2nd Edition AD&D, which is about as convoluted and NON-uniform as a combat system can be and still be called a system. Add to this the extreme ADDED mutations and arbitrary alterations bioware took with BG2, which was, by itself, designed from the ground up to have dozens upon dozens of additional individual systems dumped upon the AD&D rule set, which all came together to produce a conceptual combat system soup with near limitless combinations of combat strategies, rules, rules breakages, methods, counter methods, approaches and anti-approaches. ("Breach and Teach" for example, will not work on some mindflayers, or Golems, or Liches, or some Beholders, or Kangaxx, or some fire giants, or some Vampires, or some dragons, or on some creatures within the species family of any of the above)

Edited by Stun
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In BG2, you breach them and teach them (a lesson in pain).

 

Are you kidding? BG2 has no silver bullet tactic that works on everything. As opposed to PoE.

 

Breach and teach won't work on everything. Trolls for example. It's not enough to breach and teach to beat them. Golems either.

 

Please name one encounter in PoE the Tank & Spank strategy won't work on.

Edited by Namutree
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"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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You're not really trying to compare PoE's combat with Bg2's in any way, are you.

 

Because that would be Absurd.

 

Is that what you think I'm doing? Did you read what I wrote? The comments I was replying to were making the comparison, I was simply pointing out the flaws of the "this combat system is reducible to a little rhyme and is therefore simple" argument.

 

However, I don't think that comparing the combat in PoE to the combat in BG2 in any way would be absurd, but to each their own I suppose. Comparing things helps us to understand their similarities and differences. I'm sorry if it offends your sensibilities to compare BG2's combat to PoE's combat, but that's pretty much what everyone on this forum has been doing for the last couple of years.

 

 

 

 

In BG2, you breach them and teach them (a lesson in pain).

 

Are you kidding? BG2 has no silver bullet tactic that works on everything. As opposed to PoE.

 

Breach and teach won't work on everything. Trolls for example. It's not enough to breach and teach to beat them. Golems either.

 

Please name one encounter in PoE the Tank & Spank strategy won't work on.

 

 

Yes, I am aware that there is no universal tactic that will win every BG2 battle. That was in fact my entire point, that the ability to reduce it to a rhyme does not make it simple. My rhyme was flawed for BG2, let's just change it to 'Locate and Obliterate!" See how that works on everything? You find the enemy and then you destroy the enemy. The ridiculousness of saying that "tank and spank" works on everything is that 'tank' will be a different setup in different players' parties and 'spank,' if you're playing ideally, will be different depending on the enemy. Do you not choose offensive spells and switch weapon sets based on the specific damage resistances of your enemies? Hmm, those sound like tactical responses to me.

 

I fully agree that PoE combat focuses considerably more on strategy than on tactical responses and I think that the combat can be improved a great deal by increasing the amount of tactical response that is required to deal with different scenarios, among other things. However, I don't think that reducing the ideal strategy to the little rhyme 'tank and spank" is any sort of valid argument which proves the simplicity or faults of the system.

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"Forsooth, methinks you are no ordinary talking chicken!"

-Protagonist, Baldur's Gate

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 The ridiculousness of saying that "tank and spank" works on everything is that 'tank' will be a different setup in different players' parties and 'spank,' if you're playing ideally, will be different depending on the enemy. Do you not choose offensive spells and switch weapon sets based on the specific damage resistances of your enemies?

No, not really. I do the same thing every fight. Same weapons, same abilities, and same spells (if the fight warrants using spells). Beat the whole game, no problem.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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However, I don't think that comparing the combat in PoE to the combat in BG2 in any way would be absurd, but to each their own I suppose. Comparing things helps us to understand their similarities and differences.

But it doesn't. It's not useful. It wouldn't help us learn anything. And In the case of a PoE vs. BG2 comparison, it wouldn't even be conducive to healthy debate.

 

Again, Objectively speaking, comparing PoE's combat with BG2's would be unfair....to PoE. PoE's Combat system is in its first stage of infancy (it was literally created less than 3 years ago). It hasn't had time to mature, to be built upon, to be refined, tweaked, and reiterated.

 

They haven't even invented the rules for Level 13+ yet.

 

It's like taking a toddler and matching him up with Floyd Mayweather and then saying "Well, Ok, lets do the Tale of the Tape and see who's the better fighter!"

Edited by Stun
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In BG2, you breach them and teach them (a lesson in pain).

 

Are you kidding? BG2 has no silver bullet tactic that works on everything. As opposed to PoE.

 

Breach and teach won't work on everything. Trolls for example. It's not enough to breach and teach to beat them. Golems either.

 

Please name one encounter in PoE the Tank & Spank strategy won't work on.

 

 

Well it depends what you mean by "Spank and Tank"

 

If you mean put tank upfront while everyone behind uses missile weapons and maybe some AoE spells without moving, then there are many fights that meat your criteria:

 

Any fight involving spirits! 

The last fight in the Skaen temple where a well placed trap defeats the door jam strategy

The Worm fight in Searing Bluffs

The Ogre Matron fight (if you're at appropriate level)

The Evil Playhouse Fight (at least on hard you're attacked on both sides)

The last battle in the Game 

 

Also, at least theoretically Flame Blights should make this strategy impossible, but they simply don't do enough damage when they explode

 

If you mean use some characters to absorb enemy attacks while the rest unleash havoc, I mean that's just tactics!  There are 3 basic forms of attack (direct, enveloping, and turning) and all of them involve holding the enemy in position, while you bring forward in some way your big guns.  The trick is to force the player to pick which of these methods (or playing defensively!) is appropriate for the fight at hand.

 The problem with combat in PoE is that one method, playing defensively, seems to work far to often, and unfortunately its also the least interesting tactic.  It's harder to write AI that attacks well, which is why hex wargames like Unity of Command force the player to attack with techniques like turn limits.  There is also simply more variety in attack then defense, and more room for sh*t to hit the fan (and PoE is awesome when you're trying to correct a mistake!)  Interestingly enough, most enemies are designed to force attack (i.e. the Banshee wail that will kill you all unless you shut the banshee down first, monsters that summon minions like Menpwngras or Shades, monsters that are hard to tank like Ogres), but still defense is to powerful, and I don't know exactly what it is the cause.  

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[...]

 

But the worst as I see it, is how people compare the 'boring' PoE combat to that of BG1-2. If one of those games had same combat tactics over and over, tha would definitely be BG(1 and 2). If you had casters, you had to play rock-paper-scissors to break their defenses, or have a berserker rush them, or have the Paladin kit's strong dispel turn them to puppies.

 

[...]

I think it's funny that you criticize it, yet you mention no less than three distinct ways to deal with them. Three ways out of a small mountain.

 

In PoE? What do you do? You.. tank them, and spank them. Preferably in a doorway.

Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

 

Yes, harder, not impossible. Anyways, fighting in doorways has always been a valid tactic, I even try to do it in pen-and-paper D&D.

 

My ultimate point is, PoE is not the enemy, it does some things different- why not try to accept them and move on and enjoy the game ? After all, we were all aware that there wasn't time to develop enemy AI.

Matilda is a Natlan woman born and raised in Old Vailia. She managed to earn status as a mercenary for being a professional who gets the job done, more so when the job involves putting her excellent fighting abilities to good use.

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I find the combat to be repetitive especially if you do the side quests and become overleveled and it's also same in PotD. I send in the tank cast buffs/debuffs send in melee dps start nuking and it's done. For me around %50 of the fights are like this. %40 of the fights i don't even cast any spells just use per encounter abilities. The remaining %10 are fights that are tactically challenging such as the ones in the early game against shades/phantoms and some rare encounters like bounty quests/adra dragon etc. And the bears at start lol.

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Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

You mean easier to exploit.

 

Easier to exploit because of the engagement mechanic (and the group stealth mechanic). Have you....played PoE?

Edited by Stun
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[...]

 

But the worst as I see it, is how people compare the 'boring' PoE combat to that of BG1-2. If one of those games had same combat tactics over and over, tha would definitely be BG(1 and 2). If you had casters, you had to play rock-paper-scissors to break their defenses, or have a berserker rush them, or have the Paladin kit's strong dispel turn them to puppies.

 

[...]

I think it's funny that you criticize it, yet you mention no less than three distinct ways to deal with them. Three ways out of a small mountain.

 

In PoE? What do you do? You.. tank them, and spank them. Preferably in a doorway.

 

Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

 

Yes, harder, not impossible. Anyways, fighting in doorways has always been a valid tactic, I even try to do it in pen-and-paper D&D.

 

My ultimate point is, PoE is not the enemy, it does some things different- why not try to accept them and move on and enjoy the game ? After all, we were all aware that there wasn't time to develop enemy AI.

 

In the old game, in any fight that mattered enemy had attacks that punished your doorway tactics (horror, web, lightning bolt, confusion, domination and so on).
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At first I was a pretty staunch defender of this game and it's changes to the IE style, but the closer I get to the end, the harder it becomes for me to even want to boot this game up and complete it.

 

There have been many people suggesting that the combat quickly becomes formulaic and follows a flowchart of - Sneak -> Position -> Tank and Spank and win

 

This is pretty much the case. Once you get a full party and get into the mid game, this is what every combat encounter becomes. Sensuki said it best in another topic that there is no dynamic shift or any strategy involved, it's just a set of motions that you go through almost every fight, you don't have to adapt to combat at all, because once your Tank is engaged with the mob of dumb enemies up front, you simply lay down all the AoE CC you have and you move onto the next exact same group battle. It's the same thing, over and over again.

 

I started to get a little concerned with this combat system in Act 2, and I never ran into a situation where combat became different or engaging. You level up and get new spells and abilities but early game spells remain really good for most of the game, and there are a lot of priest, Wizard and Druid spells that are never really worth casting in battle. The fact that you can't pre-buff in this game also reduces strategy and combat dynamic IMO.

 

So I keep trucking along because of the story, but even that is nowhere near the level I was expecting to get when I pre-ordered the game. I have a couple well written characters and fairly simple fantasy story going, with a pretty boring Antagonist. It just doesn't grab me and keep me moving like Baldurs Gate or BG2 did, and it's nowhere near as impressive as Planescape: Torment.

 

I don't expect PoE to be at the same level of those games but it just doesn't seem like they put enough heart into the story. I don't know how else to describe it. 

 

I like certain things about this game, I really do, but when I tally up all the things I dislike, such as the combat, the attribute system and some parts of the story, overall I just find myself struggling to finish and I don't think this will be a game I start up again after completing it like I did with Baldurs Gate 2, and Planescape.

 

Bring on the flames!

 

No flames. The ADnD 2nd Edition is the greatest RPG ruleset ever made.  Everything since then has been MMO influenced munchkinism.  No game today could compare with the tactical variety of BG2

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[...]

 

But the worst as I see it, is how people compare the 'boring' PoE combat to that of BG1-2. If one of those games had same combat tactics over and over, tha would definitely be BG(1 and 2). If you had casters, you had to play rock-paper-scissors to break their defenses, or have a berserker rush them, or have the Paladin kit's strong dispel turn them to puppies.

 

[...]

I think it's funny that you criticize it, yet you mention no less than three distinct ways to deal with them. Three ways out of a small mountain.

 

In PoE? What do you do? You.. tank them, and spank them. Preferably in a doorway.

 

Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

 

Yes, harder, not impossible. Anyways, fighting in doorways has always been a valid tactic, I even try to do it in pen-and-paper D&D.

 

My ultimate point is, PoE is not the enemy, it does some things different- why not try to accept them and move on and enjoy the game ? After all, we were all aware that there wasn't time to develop enemy AI.

 

In the old game, in any fight that mattered enemy had attacks that punished your doorway tactics (horror, web, lightning bolt, confusion, domination and so on).

 

 

Nothing like a Hold Person to **** up your cluster of units. :(

Edited by View619
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The fact that you can't pre-buff in this game also reduces strategy and combat dynamic IMO.

 

Buffing before combat, especially buffing before every combat, was one of the things that made the IE games more tactical and fun

 

 

Truth fixed in italics

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Well it depends what you mean by "Spank and Tank"

 

By Tank & Spank I mean the tactic where you send in one or more character's whose only purpose is to absorb damage; while using non-tanks whose sole purpose is to do damage or screw them up with hostile effects. You know, characters who are 100% defense and the others are 100% offense. I also assume that no adjustment to how you tank or spank is needed. As in, once you create your Tank & Spank strategy (how you Tank & how you Spank), all of the combat in the game can be won with that single strategy (assuming said strategy is good, which unfortunately for me, mine was).

 

 

 

Any fight involving spirits! 

 

Tank & Spank works on spirits. Assuming your spank is good. I used Flame touch or whatever it's called. The level 1 wizard fire spell that does obscene damage.

 

 

 

The last fight in the Skaen temple where a well placed trap defeats the door jam strategy

 

Don't need the door jam strategy.

 

 

 

The Worm fight in Searing Bluffs

The Ogre Matron fight (if you're at appropriate level)

 

 

I don't recall the details of these fights. If either of them was critical path though I know tank & spank works on them as I beat the game using only tank & spank. Also all the Warden battles too (the supposedly challenging fights).

 

 

 

The last battle in the Game 

Tank & Spank works on this fight just fine.

"Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking.

 

I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic.

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Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

You mean easier to exploit.

 

Easier to exploit because of the engagement mechanic (and the group stealth mechanic). Have you....played PoE?

Most encounters in PoE have intelligent positioning (reminding me of IWD times) and occur in open enough spaces to prevent choking.

 

Also, enemies team up on the fight even though they are blocked by fog of war.

 

Do you to play specifically looking for exploits to the systems ? Of course you are going to find some, as you could very easily find in the old games.

 

Why is it so hard for every1 to actually play around how the game is designed to ? I did so in the AD&D games and that game and, newsflash, they are much more enjoyable that way.

Matilda is a Natlan woman born and raised in Old Vailia. She managed to earn status as a mercenary for being a professional who gets the job done, more so when the job involves putting her excellent fighting abilities to good use.

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Shall we begin talking about doorways and choke points in the old games ? At least in PoE encounter design and enemies speed-engagement makes it harder to exploit.

You mean easier to exploit.

 

Easier to exploit because of the engagement mechanic (and the group stealth mechanic). Have you....played PoE?

Most encounters in PoE have intelligent positioning (reminding me of IWD times) and occur in open enough spaces to prevent choking.

 

Also, enemies team up on the fight even though they are blocked by fog of war.

 

Do you to play specifically looking for exploits to the systems ? Of course you are going to find some, as you could very easily find in the old games.

 

Why is it so hard for every1 to actually play around how the game is designed to ? I did so in the AD&D games and that game and, newsflash, they are much more enjoyable that way.

 

It's not really important why people find this annoying/hard/difficult/tedious to play around how the game is designed. It's simply a fact that a lot of people (on these boards) do find it difficult or tedious to avoid taking advantage of the games weaknesses. There might be some interesting deep psychological explanation for why some people do this, and other people don't. But the point of the matter is that for some people, the game is more enjoyable if it is more challenging in it's own right. 

 

I'm one of those people. Though I don't share the view that it's that big of an issue in PoE. But I would prefer if Obsidian did a bit of work on encounter-design.

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At first I was a pretty staunch defender of this game and it's changes to the IE style, but the closer I get to the end, the harder it becomes for me to even want to boot this game up and complete it.

 

There have been many people suggesting that the combat quickly becomes formulaic and follows a flowchart of - Sneak -> Position -> Tank and Spank and win

 

This is pretty much the case. Once you get a full party and get into the mid game, this is what every combat encounter becomes. Sensuki said it best in another topic that there is no dynamic shift or any strategy involved, it's just a set of motions that you go through almost every fight, you don't have to adapt to combat at all, because once your Tank is engaged with the mob of dumb enemies up front, you simply lay down all the AoE CC you have and you move onto the next exact same group battle. It's the same thing, over and over again.

 

I started to get a little concerned with this combat system in Act 2, and I never ran into a situation where combat became different or engaging. You level up and get new spells and abilities but early game spells remain really good for most of the game, and there are a lot of priest, Wizard and Druid spells that are never really worth casting in battle. The fact that you can't pre-buff in this game also reduces strategy and combat dynamic IMO.

 

So I keep trucking along because of the story, but even that is nowhere near the level I was expecting to get when I pre-ordered the game. I have a couple well written characters and fairly simple fantasy story going, with a pretty boring Antagonist. It just doesn't grab me and keep me moving like Baldurs Gate or BG2 did, and it's nowhere near as impressive as Planescape: Torment.

 

I don't expect PoE to be at the same level of those games but it just doesn't seem like they put enough heart into the story. I don't know how else to describe it.

 

I like certain things about this game, I really do, but when I tally up all the things I dislike, such as the combat, the attribute system and some parts of the story, overall I just find myself struggling to finish and I don't think this will be a game I start up again after completing it like I did with Baldurs Gate 2, and Planescape.

 

Bring on the flames!

No flames. The ADnD 2nd Edition is the greatest RPG ruleset ever made. Everything since then has been MMO influenced munchkinism. No game today could compare with the tactical variety of BG2

I've been an advent supporter of AD&D even after 3rd, 3.5 and 4th (bleeeeh) editions, however, late 5th ed hits home, being largely influenced by old AD&D while doing a whole lot of things better (the classes being where it excels) also avoiding being 'gamey' as it's even more 'down-to-earth' than 2nd ed.

 

 

I look forward for a (worthwhile) rpgame using 5th ed ruleset. In the meantime though, I very much enjoy playing pen'n'paper :D

 

Where I'm gonna ask... when will more campaign rulebooks, adventures and supplements be released for 5th ???

Matilda is a Natlan woman born and raised in Old Vailia. She managed to earn status as a mercenary for being a professional who gets the job done, more so when the job involves putting her excellent fighting abilities to good use.

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