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Lack of evil companions (potential spoilers)


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I like the "Machiavellian" archtype. Someone with good intentions but their methods can get downright terrifying when appropriate. Think a sociopath who figures beneficial actions like an equation. Someone who would support terrible people until the "good" that they would do runs out and then dispose of them like they were tending a garden. And then on top of that make them polite, soft spoken, and affable. Like they would give the shirt off their back in the middle of a snowstorm, unless of course you're a detriment to the greater good. And then it's "Oh dear, I like you and all but I don't think we can afford to let you live. You shouldn't fight, if you do I can't promise it'd be painless.".

 

I'm not really a writer but, you know, something to that effect.

Kinda like Tharos in this game? :)

 

Yeah, I agree, but such a character archetype is poorly suited for a companion -- a companion, by their very nature, is a follower, and the only way such a character would put him/herself in such a degrading (from their POV) is if it supported his/her ultimate objectives. And, almost certainly, that would lead to conflict with the PC (for most PC personalities, at least). A companion that CAN betray you might be interesting -- one that inevitably WILL betray you.... Not so much. See poor old Youshi in BG2, for example.

 

Oh I don't know. Being a follower can be useful and during a hallowborn epidemic who is more important? The sloppiest bunch of animancers you can find, or someone who can see and converse with souls? Likely they can chalk the watchers stuff up to the greater good. If their working to stop the hollowborn, then they'd more chance to leave your party than kill you. There is one thing though, if you stop to help too many people out, instead of focusing on the task at hand, you could find a crossbow bolt in the person your trying to help all of a sudden. They wouldn't act against you directly but can betray quests and force you to do as they say, let them go, or kill them. You could even wake up to find them slitting Durance's throat reasoning "There's better priests out there, this one seemed a liability.".

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Without going into the whole D&D crap about alignment, I don't think it's a bad idea to include a character or two that leans more towards the "evil psycho" thing. I mean, I much prefer the writing of someone like Durance where there's a lot of nasty stuff but you can't simply characterize him as being evil. I like the nuances.

 

But it's mostly since that the PC can choose to roleplay that crazy bastard. And there is nothing in terms of the companions that really reinforce that in PoE. For one, they're pretty much OK with whatever you do (aside from GM) which is a huge disappointment (though given the number of companions, I can see why they did it). You can act like a total idiot, being cruel to them and they will just suck it up it seems.

 

But I dunno, it does feel like it needs that mega-evil sidekick. It needs a One-of-Many, it needs something special for the players who really want to roleplay that psycho character.

You can still provide plenty of nuance there of course.

 

Hopefully, *if* they introduce more companions in the expansion, it'd be great if they could introduce a character like that.

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Without going into the whole D&D crap about alignment, I don't think it's a bad idea to include a character or two that leans more towards the "evil psycho" thing. I mean, I much prefer the writing of someone like Durance where there's a lot of nasty stuff but you can't simply characterize him as being evil. I like the nuances.

 

But it's mostly since that the PC can choose to roleplay that crazy bastard. And there is nothing in terms of the companions that really reinforce that in PoE. For one, they're pretty much OK with whatever you do (aside from GM) which is a huge disappointment (though given the number of companions, I can see why they did it). You can act like a total idiot, being cruel to them and they will just suck it up it seems.

 

But I dunno, it does feel like it needs that mega-evil sidekick. It needs a One-of-Many, it needs something special for the players who really want to roleplay that psycho character.

You can still provide plenty of nuance there of course.

 

Hopefully, *if* they introduce more companions in the expansion, it'd be great if they could introduce a character like that.

 

I wouldn't say an evil psycho.  Just plain evil would be more what I think people are looking for. For example, if there was a Rogue NPC, maybe the person was an outright assassin and/or thief.  Such a person wouldn't have to be a "psycho".  In fact, the person could be a stone cold killer rather than a raving lunatic.  But I don't think that many would quibble over whether said person was "evil".

 

Here's an example that I've made up on the fly.

 

The Stone Cold Assassin Rogue evil NPC

 

In fact, one reason why an assassin NPC might join your party is that maybe he/she managed to pi$$ off the wrong person and he's seeking your protection (even if he doesn't tell you this right away).  In fact, this might be part of his personal quest.  The assassin might not be honest and up front about his reasons for joining the party in the first place.  He may pass himself off as an adventuring rogue when he really isn't.  He might be "adventuring" out in the boonies as a way to get out of Defiance Bay and away from those who are after him.  And when he's in your party, when you're in Defiance Bay, the party may be set upon by assassins seeking to kill him, and your party by extension, since you're seen as protecting him.  At some point, maybe your party is approached by a party from the aggrieved other person and the PC ends up in a dialog that starts revealing what's going on here.  Of course, the party has to fight and kill these enemies, but afterwards the PC has to have a long talk with the assassin, who has to explain the charges made against him, and you learn more about his problems.  Actually, I could see there being an option where you might turn over the assassin to the other party without a fight, though you'd be doing it only based on their charges without having heard his side of the story. 

 

The whole thing could be made even more complex by having this stone cold assassin appear to be a very nice, pleasant person, perhaps a beautiful woman.  Maybe human,elf, pale elf, or Orlan.  Someone who uses her good looks to manipulate you into seeing her as anything BUT a stone cold killer and assassin.  At this point, it could go two different ways.  Her appearance as a nice, pleasant person may be entirely honest or just a facade.  Oh, I suppose that one might say that if she truly was a stone cold killer then it's obviously a facade, and that might be true.  But it might be a permanent facade and how she appears all the time.  Or the facade could be that her nice pleasant nature was only a ruse to fool the party into liking her and accepting her into the party.  And that in reality, her "public" personal nature more in keeping with that of the evil female assassin.  And that after the facade is revealed, she may revert to her normal personality, if she stayed in the party. 

 

I actually sort of favor the evil assassin who has a nice personality.  For one thing, it seems to make her more acceptable to keep in the party, because she seems to likeable.  And if you dealt with her "problem", I could see her feeling a fair amount of loyalty towards the PC and be willing to stay on.  OTOH, an interesting "evil" twist could be that once you've resolved her "problem" and there's some question over whether she should stay on with the party, perhaps she requires some "incentive" to stay on, i.e. she wants some money.  "After all, I don't do this for free."  But after paying her price, she stays on and is 100% loyal.  She might not even quibble if the PC seems too goody-goody for her taste.  Or at least not enough to leave the party.  She might make an occasional remark, yet remain absolutely loyal.  You paid her fee and she's good to her word, in addition to a possible sense of loyalty.  Or maybe she's just loyal to your money.

 

EDIT:  After thinking about the choice of race a little longer, I'm not sure that pale elf would be a good one.  My reasoning is that I get the strong impression that pale elves are a fairly rare sight outside of their homeland.  And as such, would stand out in the Dyrwood in general and Defiance Bay specifically.  It seems that either a regular elf or a meadow folk human would blend into the background and seem "invisible" in a crowd, as opposed to orlans or a pale elf, which for an assassin who is trying to hide in plain sight would seem to be necessary.  The same might be sort of true for any orlan or dwarf as well. 

 

 

Anyways, that's an example of an evil NPC that's not a raving psychotic (assuming that one agrees that a person who makes her living as a paid assassin is "evil").

Edited by Crucis
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*blinks*

 

No one would be seeking your protection. You consist of a small band...that is all.

 

The Stronghold never really figures into much in the game - and you only have a max of 8 (8!) Hireling for security.

 

The Domenels would fall over laughing. The Crucible Knights could stomp your little stone hut into dust, and the Dozens could sneeze and blow the walls down.

 

Not buying the "protection" angle (ala DA:O Zeveran). Could be someone on the run - that would be interesting...A land tries to "blend in" with the party, hoping to go largely unnoticed (which could then depend on certain Rep conditions, whatever).

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*blinks*

 

No one would be seeking your protection. You consist of a small band...that is all.

 

The Stronghold never really figures into much in the game - and you only have a max of 8 (8!) Hireling for security.

 

The Domenels would fall over laughing. The Crucible Knights could stomp your little stone hut into dust, and the Dozens could sneeze and blow the walls down.

 

Not buying the "protection" angle (ala DA:O Zeveran). Could be someone on the run - that would be interesting...A land tries to "blend in" with the party, hoping to go largely unnoticed (which could then depend on certain Rep conditions, whatever).

 

Not protection from one of the major factions.  Just a pissed off target or customer.  And for protection, it's not so much that she'd be looking for body guards as feeling safer in the company of a bunch of adventurers, so that she doesn't get caught out alone with no one to help her.

 

But yes, she'd be on the run.  You'd probably first find her in Gilded Vale in a room on the second floor of the Black Hound Inn (hiding from those who were hunting her).  This has the benefit of making her available early on.

 

As for blending in, to a degree, her cover is partially blown since she had to go on the run in the first place.  As a human or an elf, she can blend into Defiance Bay to the degree that she would belong to a common racial group.  But obviously, if she's had to run, that part f the equation is not particularly relevant any longer.  It was more about choosing her initial race for a logical reason.  Everyone other than most humans or wood elves would be uncommon and to some degree or other a little exotic, and stand out more in a crowd than your garden variety human or wood elf.  But once she's on the run or after she joins your party, that's no longer an issue.  And really isn't anything that needs to be part of her background, since after all, she could hardly choose her own race.

 

In terms of a background, I was thinking in terms of either an artist or a merchant.  Merchant is more of a powergaming choice since it would give her a point in Mechanics to start.  But an artist could make for a possible cover for a covert assassin in a city like Defiance Bay.  As could a merchant.  A regular worker could as well, though being able to get away from your "day job" to take time to carry out a contract might make being a "regular worker" not work so well.  I suppose that one might be able to make aristocrat work as well.

 

 

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I don't really understand this assertion some people have that there's no middle ground between "decent person," and, "kill on sight." In real life, there are plenty of people who are pretty evil, but that doesn't mean you can't make polite conversation with them. Business people, lawyers, law enforcement officers, bureaucrats, government officials ... all of us have met genuinely, visibly bad people in these positions who might nonetheless be perfectly nice friends or family members. And this is to say nothing of criminals, fascists, and other "bad elements," who are awful human beings but mostly harmless in a majority of cases.

 

Moreover, evil characters who are believable and functional in society are a thing in CRPGs. Korgan was not some unfathomable character - he was a mercenary who reveled in the killing his job gave him the chance to do. Viconia was a nasty sort who fully believed in "do unto others," but she wasn't about to run around crushing peasant skulls. Edwin abused his authority and hurt people for spite and personal gain, but not in an unusual way. All of these characters were evil by any reasonable metric, but they were also believable.

 

There's precedent, is what I'm saying.

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I think there would be more room for 'evil' companions if there were also more room for 'good' companions- basically more companion reactivity to how the PC does things. The companions aren't so invested in the Watcher's quest that they should stick around the PC no matter what, but they all do except Grieving Mother. Running out of companions isn't really an issue IMO, since you can hire adventurers if you ran off all the story companions. 

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We first need to make very clear that there is no alignment in PoE.

 

That said, most "evils" don't get along without some sort of construct to "force" them together (like mutual gain ala robbery, etc) or organizational with consequences that are quite severe for non-cooperation.

 

Viconia goes along with the party because they save her from death. She still "betrays" the party in BG2 SoA (it was planned in the Underdark but was changed).

 

And so on. Evil just doesn't mix well together.

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Without going into the whole D&D crap about alignment, I don't think it's a bad idea to include a character or two that leans more towards the "evil psycho" thing. I mean, I much prefer the writing of someone like Durance where there's a lot of nasty stuff but you can't simply characterize him as being evil. I like the nuances.

I am not sure I agree.  If you really get to know Durance you will come to realize he is not "moral" by any stretch of the word.  He admits he helped create the Godhammer in part out of ego cause he thought he was "special".  He participated and in fact lead/encouraged Eothasian purges.  He clearly thinks very little of women, animancers, hates watchers by default unless they prove themselves super strong/resilient, and is thoroughly rude and hateful even to followers of his own faith.  When he weighs in on party banter he pretty much always encourages you to choose violent/confrontational reactions.

 

He is pretty easy to fit into the "evil" box.

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Agreed about Durance, he's a racist, bigoted, mass-murderer and torturer.  He brags about it. About torturing people until their souls shatter, about rounding up people for the Purges, and will tell you to your face that your entire race (orlan) is worthless and deserves to be slaves.  

 

There isn't any nuance to him at all.   He is 100% a monster. 

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Agreed about Durance, he's a racist, bigoted, mass-murderer and torturer.  He brags about it. About torturing people until their souls shatter, about rounding up people for the Purges, and will tell you to your face that your entire race (orlan) is worthless and deserves to be slaves.  

 

There isn't any nuance to him at all.   He is 100% a monster. 

 

Durance has a disease, and that disease's name is Magran. And he knows she's a terrible, hateful thing who has made him a worse person and the world a worse place, and he hates her for it, but he can't bring himself to give her up because he is what she's made him, and abandoning her would require him to acknowledge just how bad he is. To paraphrase Roger Zelazny, he knows he has a degenerative disease, but he's convinced that it looks good on him.

 

And that is why he works as a character, in spite of being really, really evil.

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If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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Durance has a disease, and that disease's name is Magran. And he knows she's a terrible, hateful thing who has made him a worse person and the world a worse place, and he hates her for it, but he can't bring himself to give her up because he is what she's made him, and abandoning her would require him to acknowledge just how bad he is. To paraphrase Roger Zelazny, he knows he has a degenerative disease, but he's convinced that it looks good on him.

 

And that is why he works as a character, in spite of being really, really evil.

On the aside he can abandon his worship of Magran in the post game, but he is no less a lunatic and or revenge crazed psycho for abandoning it.  If anything he even gets worse and becomes more vile.

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I think the devs should give people what they want here. A fully evil psychopath. Then, the first time you rest, he or she guts you in your sleep. Or, the first time you equip an item they want, they demand it or attack you. Or, they assault the healer in the party because they were looking at them funny. Or, you run low on finds once and aren't able to pay them. Or, in the big final fight, you find your enemy has bribed them.

 

And none of this you have won their loyalty crap and they decide not to sabotage you and walk off all noble and principled in the distance. They have been pissing in your wine skin, broke all your arrows, wiped poo all over Aloth's grimior and then stab you in throat. 

 

Again, this is the same argument had about being a complete psychopath. People who claim they want an evil companion, by which they mean something of sociopath (which I don't understand, technically your entire party borders on the mentally deranged and you slaughter your way along most of the game quite merrily) don't really because their game would be short, unless you want to play the entirety of acts 2 and 3 strapped to a bed in a cabin in the woods being slowly tortured to death by that really cool and edgy evil companion you picked up because they have developed a somewhat unhealthy (for you at least) obsession with you. 

 

Frankly, the character you're describing here isn't a joiner, or sure doesn't seem like one.  There's a difference between your fully evil psychopath and just being plain ol' greedy, for example.  The kind of character you're describing is probably someone even a lot of "evil" PC's wouldn't want around.  He sounds like a perpetual loose cannon or a rabid dog that needs to be put down, rather than anyone you'd actually be willing to risk letting into your party.

 

I think that it's entirely possible to create an "evil" NPC that's nowhere near that extreme and still be what most people would see as evil.

 

 

 

But you see, we already have that kind of character. We have Durance. He is a completely reprehensible human being. Aloth himself can come across as something less than a shining example of humanity (elfanity, whatever). All your companions have more then the usual level of blood thirstiness (except Eder, and he is just adorable) , so I am not sure what people want in terms of their "evil" companion. 

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I am not sure I agree.  If you really get to know Durance you will come to realize he is not "moral" by any stretch of the word.  He admits he helped create the Godhammer in part out of ego cause he thought he was "special".  He participated and in fact lead/encouraged Eothasian purges.  He clearly thinks very little of women, animancers, hates watchers by default unless they prove themselves super strong/resilient, and is thoroughly rude and hateful even to followers of his own faith.  When he weighs in on party banter he pretty much always encourages you to choose violent/confrontational reactions.

 

He is pretty easy to fit into the "evil" box.

Agreed about Durance, he's a racist, bigoted, mass-murderer and torturer.  He brags about it. About torturing people until their souls shatter, about rounding up people for the Purges, and will tell you to your face that your entire race (orlan) is worthless and deserves to be slaves.  

 

There isn't any nuance to him at all.   He is 100% a monster.

Bla bla bla bigoted bla bla bla racist bla bla.

 

My only wish for the story is that I'd be able to turn Durance into a living god.

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I think the devs should give people what they want here. A fully evil psychopath. Then, the first time you rest, he or she guts you in your sleep. Or, the first time you equip an item they want, they demand it or attack you. Or, they assault the healer in the party because they were looking at them funny. Or, you run low on finds once and aren't able to pay them. Or, in the big final fight, you find your enemy has bribed them.

 

And none of this you have won their loyalty crap and they decide not to sabotage you and walk off all noble and principled in the distance. They have been pissing in your wine skin, broke all your arrows, wiped poo all over Aloth's grimior and then stab you in throat. 

 

Again, this is the same argument had about being a complete psychopath. People who claim they want an evil companion, by which they mean something of sociopath (which I don't understand, technically your entire party borders on the mentally deranged and you slaughter your way along most of the game quite merrily) don't really because their game would be short, unless you want to play the entirety of acts 2 and 3 strapped to a bed in a cabin in the woods being slowly tortured to death by that really cool and edgy evil companion you picked up because they have developed a somewhat unhealthy (for you at least) obsession with you. 

 

Frankly, the character you're describing here isn't a joiner, or sure doesn't seem like one.  There's a difference between your fully evil psychopath and just being plain ol' greedy, for example.  The kind of character you're describing is probably someone even a lot of "evil" PC's wouldn't want around.  He sounds like a perpetual loose cannon or a rabid dog that needs to be put down, rather than anyone you'd actually be willing to risk letting into your party.

 

I think that it's entirely possible to create an "evil" NPC that's nowhere near that extreme and still be what most people would see as evil.

 

 

 

But you see, we already have that kind of character. We have Durance. He is a completely reprehensible human being. Aloth himself can come across as something less than a shining example of humanity (elfanity, whatever). All your companions have more then the usual level of blood thirstiness (except Eder, and he is just adorable) , so I am not sure what people want in terms of their "evil" companion. 

 

 

Durance is an Ignis. What some people (like me) want want are Edwin/Korgan/Viconia/Vhailor types.

 

This has been expressed repeatedly.

If I'm typing in red, it means I'm being sarcastic. But not this time.

Dark green, on the other hand, is for jokes and irony in general.

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I think the devs should give people what they want here. A fully evil psychopath. Then, the first time you rest, he or she guts you in your sleep. Or, the first time you equip an item they want, they demand it or attack you. Or, they assault the healer in the party because they were looking at them funny. Or, you run low on finds once and aren't able to pay them. Or, in the big final fight, you find your enemy has bribed them.

 

And none of this you have won their loyalty crap and they decide not to sabotage you and walk off all noble and principled in the distance. They have been pissing in your wine skin, broke all your arrows, wiped poo all over Aloth's grimior and then stab you in throat. 

 

Again, this is the same argument had about being a complete psychopath. People who claim they want an evil companion, by which they mean something of sociopath (which I don't understand, technically your entire party borders on the mentally deranged and you slaughter your way along most of the game quite merrily) don't really because their game would be short, unless you want to play the entirety of acts 2 and 3 strapped to a bed in a cabin in the woods being slowly tortured to death by that really cool and edgy evil companion you picked up because they have developed a somewhat unhealthy (for you at least) obsession with you. 

 

Frankly, the character you're describing here isn't a joiner, or sure doesn't seem like one.  There's a difference between your fully evil psychopath and just being plain ol' greedy, for example.  The kind of character you're describing is probably someone even a lot of "evil" PC's wouldn't want around.  He sounds like a perpetual loose cannon or a rabid dog that needs to be put down, rather than anyone you'd actually be willing to risk letting into your party.

 

I think that it's entirely possible to create an "evil" NPC that's nowhere near that extreme and still be what most people would see as evil.

 

 

 

But you see, we already have that kind of character. We have Durance. He is a completely reprehensible human being. Aloth himself can come across as something less than a shining example of humanity (elfanity, whatever). All your companions have more then the usual level of blood thirstiness (except Eder, and he is just adorable) , so I am not sure what people want in terms of their "evil" companion. 

 

 

Durance is an Ignis. What some people (like me) want want are Edwin/Korgan/Viconia/Vhailor types.

 

This has been expressed repeatedly.

 

 

No way is Durance an Ignis. Ignis is a socio/psychopath that burns people for fun, and arguably a schizo - although he's got a pretty good argument to his belief that he's on fire, fine. There's a fair argument that Durance isn't good, fine, there's probably a good argument that he's got questionable motives and moral virtues, fine. But he's pretty far from Chaotic-Evil-Ignis-level of crazy.

 

I'd call him a Vhailor, at worst, although with a very different level of sentience and interaction.

 

That being said, I'd kill for another Vhailor. Or another Ignis. Hell, I'd kill for a Morte.

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What about companions you can push to be really nasty ? How about Pellegrina ?

 

The ambassador orders Pellegrina to reach Twin Elms and broker a new trade deal with Glanfathans. The idea is that Valians can exploit the weakness of Dyrwood, which was traditionally the main trade partner of Glanfathans, and replace them. Because Dyrwood is going down anyway due to Waidwen's Legacy and so on.

 

She objects and thinks this is low, but it seems mostly because she thinks it would be bad for Vailian republics in the long run, and Dyrwood is going to recover. She is not sentimental, and if she feels some empathy for Dyrwood she's hiding it.

 

Anyway, you can tell her:

 

If you don't exploit Dyrwood, someone else will. (I don't remember the exact wording)

No one ever got in trouble for following orders.

 

These have been used thorough history to justify major war crimes and other atrocities. You can push Pellegrina to become a monster.

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I think the devs should give people what they want here. A fully evil psychopath. Then, the first time you rest, he or she guts you in your sleep. Or, the first time you equip an item they want, they demand it or attack you. Or, they assault the healer in the party because they were looking at them funny. Or, you run low on finds once and aren't able to pay them. Or, in the big final fight, you find your enemy has bribed them.

 

And none of this you have won their loyalty crap and they decide not to sabotage you and walk off all noble and principled in the distance. They have been pissing in your wine skin, broke all your arrows, wiped poo all over Aloth's grimior and then stab you in throat. 

 

Again, this is the same argument had about being a complete psychopath. People who claim they want an evil companion, by which they mean something of sociopath (which I don't understand, technically your entire party borders on the mentally deranged and you slaughter your way along most of the game quite merrily) don't really because their game would be short, unless you want to play the entirety of acts 2 and 3 strapped to a bed in a cabin in the woods being slowly tortured to death by that really cool and edgy evil companion you picked up because they have developed a somewhat unhealthy (for you at least) obsession with you. 

 

Frankly, the character you're describing here isn't a joiner, or sure doesn't seem like one.  There's a difference between your fully evil psychopath and just being plain ol' greedy, for example.  The kind of character you're describing is probably someone even a lot of "evil" PC's wouldn't want around.  He sounds like a perpetual loose cannon or a rabid dog that needs to be put down, rather than anyone you'd actually be willing to risk letting into your party.

 

I think that it's entirely possible to create an "evil" NPC that's nowhere near that extreme and still be what most people would see as evil.

 

 

 

But you see, we already have that kind of character. We have Durance. He is a completely reprehensible human being. Aloth himself can come across as something less than a shining example of humanity (elfanity, whatever). All your companions have more then the usual level of blood thirstiness (except Eder, and he is just adorable) , so I am not sure what people want in terms of their "evil" companion. 

 

 

Durance is an Ignis. What some people (like me) want want are Edwin/Korgan/Viconia/Vhailor types.

 

This has been expressed repeatedly.

 

That being said, I'd kill for another Vhailor. Or another Ignis. Hell, I'd kill for a Morte.

 

 

Heck, give me companions like all in PS:T companions.  That game did "quality over quanity"  companions better than PoE. 

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