So, let's talk 'bout Dungeons

[Eisenheinrich]

Guten Tag!

So, I thought we talk about the dungeons in PoE, because, well, this is the enviroment which spawned RPGs in the first place. The dungoen is essential to a RPG, it's a trope of pop culture almost, and when it comes down to some serious dungeon delving, count me in. I played the **** out of Diablo 1 (wich is, to be honest, one big dungeon), got my share of D&D in mom's basement, loved Durlag's Tower and Watcher's Keep and get my panties wet, when I think about the epicness of Icewind Dale's multileveled vaults of terror. So, I was rather excited to see how PoE would handle this matter. And, what to say: It surprised me. The dungeons are all done very well, they are among the best designed areas (both in terms of artwork and feel) in the game. While I loathed some of the clunky architecture in the game (Caed Nua was a strange place, why does the map icon look so much different? Also not fond of the sterile areas of Defiance Bay), the dungeons where beautiful to look at. Also, they felt like real places with a story that's going on and which you can explore while hacking your way through them.

 

I remember the uninspired dungeons in the first NWN oder even worse, Dragon Age II. A dungeon is more than a bunch of halls and corridors stuffed with monsters. It's a underground adventure playground, deadly and unpredictable, full of traps and dangers. The bigger the better. I was amazed by the 15 levels of Od Nua, each and every layer a unique part in itself. Well done, devs. The feeling of getting deeper and deeper beyond the surface was well developed, also the feeling of an ancient terror waiting deep down below.

But the most memorable dungeons were elsewhere. I remember them, because they were so fun to play and had a cool vibe and story to them. Here's my rating:

4. First engwhihtian temple - first impression, ancient enviroment, some intresting riddles, some lore, hits you on the right spot.

 

3. Temple of Eothas - just good old dungeoncrawling in a forgotten temple. The visions and revealing the story of what went on there really impressed me.

 

2. Skaen Temple - this was such a good place to fight through, really dark and creepy with some really sinister feel to it. Loved the outcome, when you enter the Tower from the backdoor. 

 

3. Raedric's Hold - Maybe best "dungeon" I played since IWD's Dragons Eye. The multiple ways of handling it, all those layers, from rooftop to the deepest cellars were just a blast to play. 


So, what are your favourite dungeons?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Eisenheinrich

[Christliar]

I agree, most of the dungeons were well done. I felt some of them lean too heavily towards the fighting kind though. Some of them felt same-y too, like ALL the Engwithan themed ones, they were also the ones on the combat-heavy side. I don't dislike combat, quite the contrary - I play games (mostly) for the challenges combat can present. Endless Paths had some meh levels with nothing happening in them. The level with the elementals spring to mind. The second to last was just a room with Dank Spores etc. I liked the overall atmosphere of it, some unknown horror lurking down below, though I was disappointed that it was just a dragon and not a very interesting one. Was hoping for some Eldritch abomination or something but eh, you win some, you lose some ;p

Skaen Temple was creepy, I agree, but mostly with nothing happening besides the end. Raedric's was awesome, many ways to finish it, interesting NPCs to talk to inside etc. Temple of Eothas - very good early level dungeon with some good loot, loved it. It remained fresh because of the notes you find and history to uncover, and it wasn't overly long to bore you. Shadows were cheap enemies, but I liked them because they added flavor.

I'll list the ones I didn't like:

Catacombs in Copperlane - pointless and just one long corridor.
Mostly all the Engwithan ones - felt same-y and the architecture was just boring.

...that's about it. All my other criticisms still stand though.

[Crucis]

One criticism that I have with actual dungeons in these games is that they're too well lit.  That's why I found the dungeons around Sun in Shadow interesting ... because they were dark ... very dark.   I liked that I felt like I actually needed to carry a torch to see where I was going (at least a little bit), though it'd have been nice if the torch shed a bit more light.  It seems to me that dungeons seem more mysterious and dungeon-y when they're dark and you can't see much of anything. 

 

Note that I'm not talking about the "fog of war" (or whatever it's called in an RPG) where you can't see or reveal what's on the map beyond 12m or so.  I'm talking about the level of darkness that was seen on Sun in Shadow where you could barely see 3-4m ahead of you and even then it was dark.  Seemed much more real.

[cirdanx]

My biggest problem with the dungeons was the "mechanics talent checking for traps" Even in the end i lacked the stats to remove all. This would be fine if they haven´t said that all matters ( i made a fairly balanced character with focus on mechanics) yet..no chance. No idea how high your mech has to be for this traps but it is stupid not to mention the insane damage some of these do is also out of the ordinary.

 

Otherwise the dungeons were are great experience. The look i had on my face when i used the hook to directly climp down to lvl 5 in endless paths was pure horror when i saw that dragon

 

Endless path was great, but not much going on after the first 12 lvls.

 

Another factor that kinda dimished my fun was the right out dumb ai...it just doesn´t work in small spaces, But thats more for the Tech forum.

[Starwars]

I enjoyed them for the most part. The game overall could've used better encounter design and more interactivity in some places. I guess they didn't have the time. The part in Endless Paths where you could jump down to (maybe) your doom was great. I would've loved more scripted interactions and other stuff generally speaking. More devious trap also. Some of the dungeons (and Endless Paths floors) feel a bit on the "dry" side. Just mostly monsters to cut a path through, maybe a tiny bit of story/lore and little else.

Overall, the Endless Paths were quite epic though.

 

Visually speaking, they look great to me. Especially the Engwithan Ruins had a lovely look to them. The Skaen dungeon is nicely done but feel weirdly overly populated by cultists when in contrast to towns and such. There's a ton of people down there and while it's nice to have a larger dungeon, I think that's actually the one dungeon that I feel could be cut down in size a bit.

[Barleypaper]

I'll echo what criticism others have brought up; the dungeons were often too bright, too mob filled and not interactive enough. I think the thing I most want to see from future dungeons would be more unique set-piece encounters (Vithrac, Xaurip leader, drake, etc) and less trash (I'm sure some people like clearing trash though, and it does give that classic dungeon attrition vibe).

 

But, despite that, I thought that the dungeons were attractive and awesome and generally on-par with those of the IE games.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Barleypaper

[Blovski]

Visually excellent, not as memorable in terms of gameplay as Watcher's Keep. Some of the Endless Paths lore is really nice.

[Exyll]

I enjoy the dungeons for the most part as well, but those traps, some of them are either bugged or too high, I can understand level 9-10 traps in act 3, but I have 7 maybe 8 mechanics in act 2 and the right side of the pathway to Helim (the thing in the catacombs part of the necklace quest) are two traps I can never disarm, level 9 mechanics and cant disarm the trap next to Sul's lair 

[Amfortas]

Dungeons are nice and not long to the point you get tired of them. The endless paths were pretty well done in my opinion, there's a decent amount of story and visual variation, so even though there are 15 levels it never got boring or repetitive to me.

 

But I have to say, I was a bit disappointed by the lack of puzzles or moments where you need to think a bit. The game starts pretty well with the bells in the temple of Eothas, unfortunately that's the only puzzle I encountered in the whole game.

 

The dungeons could do as well, with some places to go back once you've unlocked something in another part of the dungeon or even in another one. Something to prevent clearing levels and advancing through the game from being so routinary: kill everyone, loot everything, explore everything, ok level done, I can now forget about it, next one.

[Eisenheinrich]

Guten Tag!

 

Internet message boards are a funny thing. I wanted to discuss the dungeons you liked, but instead, people feel engaged to concentrate on the things they disliked about them. So funny. Besides, I agree that encounter design could be improved in the next expansion or even a sequel. I remember the bountyhunt-quests and the Vithrac-Encounter in lvl 12 or 13 of Od Nua to be superior compared to most of the random fights in the game.

Edited April 16, 2015 by Eisenheinrich

[Veynn]

I love Endless Nua but there are too many filler dungeons.

[Eisenheinrich]

There can't be to many dungeons!!! Screw that woods and meadows and nature ****, i want me some nice corridors!!!

[Tigranes]

We have a tank-loving, cave-fight-loving fellow called Monte Carlo. You two would do well.

 

Purely from a visual / atmosphere perspective I thought all the Engwithan ruins, especially Cilaban Rilag, were interesting - combining the cave flora (and some appropriate creatures like forest lurkers) with the runes and sometimes remaining texts / spirits. This was particularly good in Level 13 of Od Nua, where you basically get a step by step process of turning Engwithans into Animats.

 

Level 10? The one with the spiked room? Was a good one in terms of the placement of encounters and obstacles, I wish there was more of that. Pretty Durlag in feeling.

[kaiki]

Endless Paths was my favorite dungeon. I really enjoyed how within a contained space there was such variety in enemies and there was not just a story about a long dead civilization, but an ecosystem and rival societies all within one dungeon. It was the first time where I understood why people enjoy dungeon-centric games like IWD.

[Blovski]

Does anyone understand the bit in Cliaban Rilag where you have the choice between picking the door or going left. It seems like when you go left you can either pick up the key and go back or just go in through the open left side of the centre room and there's no meaningful difference/you don't avoid anything by doing so. Really curious as to what the design rationale behind this is? Some cuts late in the process or something?

Also, IIRC there are unavoidable traps on the left, which you need mechanics to take out and obviously picking the door requires mechanics so it's not even a meaningful build decision.

Just struck me as really bizarre if the design's intentional rather than a relic of the development process.