My impressions of the game

[Luj1]

Ditto though keep in mind PoE is Obsidian's B-team project. The only 'senior' that's truly on it is JES as the project lead, and he has some irremediable design fixations  and cant even listen to his own advice.

Considering the young and relatively inexperienced crew PoE turned out a lot better than expected.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luj1

[AndreaColombo]

So Tim Cain, Adam Brennecke, Chris Avellone and Eric Fenstermaker are all juniors?

[Grotesque]

Sensuki has written a number of long posts about the game over at RPGCodex. He seems to dislike everything about it!

 

 

 I know about it but it must be official by starting a thread entitled  "Sensuki's Pillars of Eternity review"

[ComplyOrDie]

 

So don't bother saying anything. He enjoyed the game as many of us did. Keep your bitterness to yourself.

 

Maybe "I am glad you were able to derive enjoyment from a feature I hate so much I cannot stop harping on it" or simply "good for you"?

 

Why do you feel the need to spread your bs on a forum of a game you clearly hate?  Go do something else with your life.

 

 

 

You guys are clueless and have awfully low RPG standards , and I'm gonna show you why.

 

 

1) PoE has no encounter design like I said

 

 

During most battles you just send a tank to engage their melee fighters and have the rest of the party attack them. You rarely face anything that requires a different tactic. There's no swarm of weak enemies to overwhelm your tank, no ogres doing a pincer attack inside a tight corridor, no archers in hard-to-reach places , battles inside traps, NOTHING! The only ambush you'll face the entire game is in the tutorial!

 

Battles in PoE are  memorable due to their context (a lone powerful bear early in game, a big dragon, another big dragon, assaulting a fortress) and not for actual interesting fights. Most of them are just frontal fights with a straightforward approach , which brings us to point two below...

 

 

 

2) laughable "tactical" combat

 

 

 

a) either you are in open areas where you must protect your squishy characters, or

b) you are in tight areas where you block the chokepoint with your tank, while the rest of the party chugs spells and ranged attacks

 

 

The peak of this amazing "tactical" combat are teleporting phantoms and burrowing beetles (which are essentially the same thing, yeah)

 

 

 

 

EDIT:

 

And guys, I am pleasantly surprised by PoE overall . Its far better than I thought it would be . You are really destroying the modern criteria for these games with such remarks.

 

Not sure how much of the game you have played but there are a number of ambushes. I can think of six off the top of my head. I am personally disappointed with the encounters but they are not badly designed per se it is just they are so easy that tank and spank works for the vast majority, and the enemies are quite samey/bland at the moment. It's the best game of its kind for a very long time.

[Luj1]

So Tim Cain, Adam Brennecke, Chris Avellone and Eric Fenstermaker are all juniors?

 

You should do some research before you post.

 

 

 

Timothy did only programming as far as we know

 

Adam handled the PR stuff as the project's CEO and did some programming here and there

 

Fenstermaker did most of the writing (that's why writing is one of the few strong points this game has)

 

Avellone wrote a few (awesome) companions and ingame books. Being the creative lead gives him the freedom to get involved as much as he wants - which is not much

 

 

 

 

So yeah, Pillars was Obsidian's B-team project with JES at the helm.  That was decided before production started. It's not a bad thing. New talent must be forged in fire.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luj1

[Luckmann]

[ removed ]

 

...what? I saw nothing wrong in what he said, but more to the point, why would it be wrong to judge someone over video game mechanics.. when it's their job to work with video game mechanics? It's like saying I judge my gardener over something so trivial and subjective such as landscaping techniques. Well.. yes?

Edited April 15, 2015 by LadyCrimson

[Luj1]

...what? I saw nothing wrong in what he said, but more to the point, why would it be wrong to judge someone over video game mechanics.. when it's their job to work with video game mechanics? It's like saying I judge my gardener over something so trivial and subjective such as landscaping techniques. Well.. yes?

 

Yeah really.

 

 

Instead of addressing a game's weak points (which keeps developers focused on improving) I should just accept anything thrown my way with just gratitude and arse-kissing. He is totally right. That's why most games today don't come close to old classics. Because the audience standard is much lower and they only talk about the stuff they like, and less about stuff done wrong. I prefer to be a harsh critic. IT's better for everyone.

Edited April 15, 2015 by LadyCrimson

[Mebrilia]

My problems with POE (i love the game) are some gameplay decisions.... Like the no immunity policy... Resulting on thing not so believable like creature with no eyes affected by blindness... Flying creatures triggering oil trap.... Those things have no sense to me..

[Luj1]

Amen sister. blinding skeletons? blinding Ooze? Knocking adult dragons prone? Killing a flame blight with fireball?

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luj1

[Leferd]

 

So Tim Cain, Adam Brennecke, Chris Avellone and Eric Fenstermaker are all juniors?

 

 

You should do some research before you post.

 

 

 

Timothy did only programming as far as we know

 

Adam handled the PR stuff as the project's CEO and did some programming here and there

 

Fenstermaker did most of the writing (that's why writing is one of the few strong points this game has)

 

Avellone wrote a few (awesome) companions and ingame books. Being the creative lead gives him the freedom to get involved as much as he wants - which is not much

 

 

 

 

So yeah, Pillars was Obsidian's B-team project with JES at the helm.  That was decided before production started. It's not a bad thing. New talent must be forged in fire.

Cain is a senior programmer but also helped Josh with system and class design and he was responsible for the stronghold.

 

Brennecke is the lead programmer, executive producer, and took lead in concepting and pitching the game.

[Luj1]

That's no different from what I said in any meaningful way. Timothy Cain's work on classes I'm unfamiliar with but I'm betting he didn't get involved much in that. Basically they left 90-95% of system design to JES (as evident from the plethora of developer videos). Which was possibly a little too much for the dude despite his senior status.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luj1

[Leferd]

You're making up those percentages out of air.

 

In those videos, Kickstarter updates, and forum posts -Josh references Tim quite frequently -especially as it relates to the classes.

 

Additionally other designers have say in system design as well -such as Bobby Null.

[Gromnir]

You're making up those percentages out of air.

 

In those videos, Kickstarter updates, and forum posts -Josh references Tim quite frequently -especially as it relates to the classes.

 

Additionally other designers have say in system design as well -such as Bobby Null.

agreed. josh is visible so he gets undue credit and blame.  nevertheless, pointing out that poe mechanics did not spring forth from josh's skull like athena, fully armed and armoured and looking to make grognards suffer for their crpg pretensions, is wasted breath.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Monte Carlo]

Whoah hold on. I thought, as a Kickstarter, this project would have a unique, transparent system of updates where we would see inside the development process and see who did what.

 

Didn't we?

[Gromnir]

Whoah hold on. I thought, as a Kickstarter, this project would have a unique, transparent system of updates where we would see inside the development process and see who did what.

 

Didn't we?

we saw what they (obsidian) were doing.  did you expect to get a blow-by-blow account o' what every team member were doing?  am not recalling that as a kickstarter pledge.

 

*quickly reviews kickstarter page*

 

nope.  nothing such as what mc suggests is on kickstarter page.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[LadyCrimson]

Thread pruned a bit.

Let's try to keep it friendly and on point.

[Monte Carlo]

 

Whoah hold on. I thought, as a Kickstarter, this project would have a unique, transparent system of updates where we would see inside the development process and see who did what.

 

Didn't we?

we saw what they (obsidian) were doing.  did you expect to get a blow-by-blow account o' what every team member were doing?  am not recalling that as a kickstarter pledge.

 

*quickly reviews kickstarter page*

 

nope.  nothing such as what mc suggests is on kickstarter page.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yes, a lawyer's answer indeed.

[Luj1]

 

That's no different from what I said in any meaningful way. Timothy Cain's work on classes I'm unfamiliar with but I'm betting he didn't get involved much in that. Basically they left 90-95% of system design to JES (as evident from the plethora of developer videos). Which was possibly a little too much for the dude despite his senior status.

You're making up those percentages out of air.

 

 

Yes I am but that is how it really is.

 

 

In those videos, Kickstarter updates, and forum posts Josh references Tim quite frequently especially as it relates to the classes.

 

Sure, Tim has a ton of system design experience being (among other things) one of the co-creators of SPECIAL we all know and love. Anyone who denies that has no clue. Therefore he probably was there for Josh as a senior consultant and a walking encyclopedia of knowledge. But he mainly did programming while JES had near-total or total freedom in doing core systems. Had Tim done system design , believe me, Pillars' mechanics would have much more sense. (And I'm not taking a dump on Sawyer, I may or may not like his approach, but it is evident that he had his hands more than full)

 

 

Additionally other designers have say in system design as well -such as Bobby Null.

 

Look everyone can have a say. Developers are people, they work together, talk to each other, eat together, spend time together. Tim, Boby or person X may have influenced some design decisions with their good ideas or good advice. But If everyone did everything this wouldn't be half the game it is. That is not how these companies work. Everyone has his or hers sphere. That being said, JES had the last word on system design. Core systems were JES' job as the design lead, not Cain's or Boby's. Pillars of Eternity was his Trial of Iron, so to speak. Bobby Null as far as I'm aware was the level lead on Pillars and did fine. Od Nua (Mega-dungeon) was his idea and that's great.

[PrimeJunta]

 

 

Whoah hold on. I thought, as a Kickstarter, this project would have a unique, transparent system of updates where we would see inside the development process and see who did what.

 

Didn't we?

we saw what they (obsidian) were doing.  did you expect to get a blow-by-blow account o' what every team member were doing?  am not recalling that as a kickstarter pledge.

 

*quickly reviews kickstarter page*

 

nope.  nothing such as what mc suggests is on kickstarter page.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yes, a lawyer's answer indeed.

 

 

 Nah Gromnir isn't always wrong.

[Luj1]

 

You're making up those percentages out of air.

 

In those videos, Kickstarter updates, and forum posts -Josh references Tim quite frequently -especially as it relates to the classes.

 

Additionally other designers have say in system design as well -such as Bobby Null.

agreed. josh is visible so he gets undue credit and blame.  nevertheless, pointing out that poe mechanics did not spring forth from josh's skull like athena, fully armed and armoured and looking to make grognards suffer for their crpg pretensions, is wasted breath.

 

PoE's mechanics *did* spring from JES' skull moreso than from any other team member's skull.

 

Furthermore if JES gets critiqued (I wouldn't say blamed as you did), it's because he didn't listen to his own advice. However I'm going to cut him some slack because he carried a great burden, perhaps the greatest in his career so far.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luj1

[Luckmann]

 

You're making up those percentages out of air.

 

In those videos, Kickstarter updates, and forum posts -Josh references Tim quite frequently -especially as it relates to the classes.

 

Additionally other designers have say in system design as well -such as Bobby Null.

agreed. josh is visible so he gets undue credit and blame.  nevertheless, pointing out that poe mechanics did not spring forth from josh's skull like athena, fully armed and armoured and looking to make grognards suffer for their crpg pretensions, is wasted breath.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

While yes, Sawyer gets some undue credit and blame, there's no doubt that many defining aspects of PoE that have turned out to be considerable issues are due to Sawyer's pet peeves and hangups. The whole "no hard counters"-thing, the lack of counterspelling, the war on movement, and the irrational hatred of buffs. No, he can't be blamed for all flaws, but a couple of defining ones rests squarely on his shoulders.

 

For example, I don't think he's responsible for the issues with Party Scouting and No In-Combat Stealth, the lopsided Attribute system, or the armour dichotomy. Or at least, I don't know a way to blame him yet.

Edited April 15, 2015 by Luckmann

[Mebrilia]

In the end i don't think blaming someone will be usefull i love the game but clearly some issue are created by design decision... Wrong one apparently...

 

Now i am not a game designer but i expect consistency on some things... The immunity lack argument is a strong flaw of this game some people can find it arguably more tactical but i don't agree at all..

 

Tactics means also change your approach if is not effective... Some creature should be Immune to some effect also by logic...Maybe divinity original sin is not top notch in fact of narration.. But as gameplay it have strong tactics elements....

 

The game should punish not so briliant decision... Attacking a fire made creature with fire attack? No matter how excuse you use but if the creature will be damaged will result to be stupid and terribile lacking on logic and consistency.... But this is only a issue... When we talk about creature that have no eyes that can be blinded... Now that is almost game breaking....

 

And not is not tactics if ennemy have only resistance but can be harmed  even on things that should not affect them... I hope Obsidian will see this and will fix it properly..

 

Adding immunity will add challenge on the game but also will make the setting more believable...

 

Flying creature should not affected by oil traps.... No eyes creature should not affected by blindness

[Gromnir]

 

 

Whoah hold on. I thought, as a Kickstarter, this project would have a unique, transparent system of updates where we would see inside the development process and see who did what.

 

Didn't we?

we saw what they (obsidian) were doing.  did you expect to get a blow-by-blow account o' what every team member were doing?  am not recalling that as a kickstarter pledge.

 

*quickly reviews kickstarter page*

 

nope.  nothing such as what mc suggests is on kickstarter page.

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

 

Yes, a lawyer's answer indeed.

 

it's a reasonable response to a silly complaint.  is nothing lawyer-like in our response... other than our mild sneer o' disdain, which you can't actual see.  

 

because o' his familiarity with board interactions, josh becomes the default mouthpiece for obsidian.  that sure don't mean that he is sole responsible for all issues he has presented to the community.  and boasts about the transparency o' the project didn't lead us to believe that we would know what were the individual contributions o' all the obsidian folks working on the project... 'cause that would be a ridiculous assumption for us to make.  

 

how much is josh responsible for mechanics o' poe?  more than a smidge?  am knowing he has mentioned the input o' cain more than once.  is hard to believe that all the other developers at obsidian is no more than drones carrying out the will o' the red queen, eh? luckman sees, "no doubt that many defining aspects of PoE that have turned out to be considerable issues are due to Sawyer's pet peeves and hangups."  based on message board drops here and posts at something awful wherein josh supports or defends aspects o' poe mechanics?  such assumptions is clear not based on josh actual taking credit for such stuff.  we would actual be shocked if josh had never been put in the uncomfortable position o' public defending design choices he were private opposed to.  so how much is on josh personal as 'posed to a collaborative effort with multiple obsidian folks?  is hardly being lawyerly to admit that we do not know.

 

perhaps we need a few more lawyers... or at least a few folks who were trained to reason rational.  

 

HA! Good Fun!

[anameforobsidian]

During most battles you just send a tank to engage their melee fighters and have the rest of the party attack them. You rarely face anything that requires a different tactic. There's no swarm of weak enemies to overwhelm your tank, no ogres doing a pincer attack inside a tight corridor, no archers in hard-to-reach places , battles inside traps, NOTHING! The only ambush you'll face the entire game is in the tutorial!

 

 

 

There are many swarms of weak enemies (xaurips), especially during the final fight of the first level of the endless paths.  There are traps in battles.  Ogres absolutely can pull more, which'll lead to a nasty combo.  There are no archer ambushes though. 

 

However, it seems like many of the encounters you want are a bit artificial by design.  They rely on abusing the game designer's control instead of actually being difficult.

 

 I would say that

Raedric 2, the Lighthouse, the chanter bounty, the ardra dragon, the fampyr mobs, the elementals in front of the door, and the spore plants all require fairly different design.

 However, almost all of those are only sparingly in the main game, they require wading through a lot of optional content.

Edited April 16, 2015 by anameforobsidian