Jump to content
Macrae

Obsidian devs after the Limerick controversy..

Recommended Posts

"So, what about all the women who said it was fine and the person who complained was an idiot?  I guess those women do not count huh?"

Please supply me a list or number of how many women thought it was ok.

The point is that there where a number of really high profile women scientists who were horrified by the idiot in the shirt. They wrote incredibly well thought out blogs and posts pointing out why it was so offensive. The fact that some random people were ok with it is completely irrelevant.

So, a few people of importance... their opinions matter, but the opinions of thousands of others--because they aren't someone special-- don't matter? Great logic there.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I read some of these posts, and it's incredible:
 

Nothing else left to do except laughing anyway against feminazism and political correctedness...

 

There are more constructive and fitting labels to apply to them, rather than to tack on what can by now only be described as meaningless nonsense, such as "idiots", "lunatics" and "crazy f***s". 

 

It's pointless to try to logically explain this to SJW's. Their control-freakery is simply a cloak they wrap their own mental health issues and general loserdom in, not something a normie can be expected to fix. 

 

 

Obsidian should just next time piss in their faces and laugh and let these tumblrsexual snowflakes act as unpaid marketing interns for the game as they melt down in narcissistic fury and impotent rage. 

 

The issue is that these loons find everything and anything offensive and "irresponsible". 

 

This is why everyone laughs at SJW's.  Not because they are evil or hate "social justice".

 

So the SJWs who fight against the current status-quo of a patriarchy and privilege, are "feminazis," "idiots," "lunatics," "crazy f***s", and "loons" and also have "mental health issues" and "general loserdom." The status-quo folks who hurled the insults then proceed to tell the SJWs to take a chill-pill and not be so offended.

 

Got it.

 

It's no wonder so many high-profile individuals and organizations, including major video game associations, have been avoiding (more like outright condemning) the GamerGate folks like they were the plague, which undoubtedly many of the posters in this thread share similarities with, if they're not outright already a part of it.

 

Please continue with the blatant insults and sexist remarks (god I pray that you guys do not stop) for all to see. You have no idea how much you're helping people be against your viewpoints, far more than anything that SJWs can do.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

At least this forum isnt as insane as ...

 

5buLqLZ.png

 

Like seriously, its totally aiming for that corpses wooden ass.

Edited by Mungri
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melody: Every Sperm Is Sacred

 

There are Commies in the world

There are Feminists

There are Lib'rals, and Lefties, and then

There are those that follow Sarkeesian, but

I've never been one of them

 

I'm a Gamer Gater

And have been since before it was born

And you know what they say of GG'ers:

'Tis a movement that thinks with its horn

 

You don't have to be a half-tonner.

You don't have to have a neckbeard.

You don't have to live in a basement, you're

A Gamer Gater just like Firedorn

 

Because

 

Every verse is sacred

Every verse is great

If a verse gets changéd

I get quite irate

 

(RPG CODEX:)

Every verse is sacred

Every verse is great

If a verse gets changéd

We get quite irate

 

(MACRAE:)

Let the backers scratch theirs

On the crumbling stone

We shall make THEM pay 

for every verse that can't be found.

 

(RPG CODEX:)

Every verse is wanted

Every verse is good

Every verse is needed

For our morning wood

 

(LUCKMANN:)

Lib'ral, Lefty, Fem'nist

Tweets theirs just anywhere

But we love a studio who treats our

Verses with more care

 

(WAY OFF-TOPIC:)

Every verse is sacred

Every verse is great

(POE GENERAL DISCUSSION:)

If a verse gets wasted

(RPG CODEX:)

...We get quite irate

 

(LUCKMANN:)
Every verse is sacred

(MUNGRI and MACRAE:)

Every verse is good

(NECKBEARDS:)

Every verse is needed

(RICHARD DAWKINS:)

In your neighborhood!

 

(RPG CODEX:)

Every verse is useful,

Every verse is fine.

(FUNERAL CORTEGE:)

We need everybody's

(FIREDORN:)
Mine!
(SARKEESIAN:)

And mine!

(EVERYBODY:)

Not hers!

 

(LONGKNIFE:)

Let the fem'nist tweet hers

On Twitter and Tumblr and blog.

(GAMERGATE:)

We shall strike her down for

Each verse that we don't want.

 

(EVERYONE:)

Every verse is sacred,

Every verse is good

Every verse is needed

For our morning wood.

 

Every verse is sacred

Every verse is great

If a verse gets changéd

We get quite iraaaaaaaate!

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 6

I have a project. It's a tabletop RPG. It's free. It's a work in progress. Find it here: www.brikoleur.com

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you're entertained Obsidian. You've literally invited this war into your very doorstep, just because ignoring one person on Twitter was too hard for you. I hope Obsidian management realizes that you've basically turned your company into a battleground and every party will be now looking at your hands through a microscope. If you pick one side you will antagonize the other, it's a lose-lose situation. These threads will come and go and they will keep popping up here and there and nobody will forget.

 

I'd pity you Obsidian if it wasn't your own fault. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you're entertained Obsidian.

 

 

 

If they actually cared one way or another about the little war you are trying to instigate here, they would lock this thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope you're entertained Obsidian. You've literally invited this war into your very doorstep, just because ignoring one person on Twitter was too hard for you. I hope Obsidian management realizes that you've basically turned your company into a battleground and every party will be now looking at your hands through a microscope. If you pick one side you will antagonize the other, it's a lose-lose situation. These threads will come and go and they will keep popping up here and there and nobody will forget.

 

I'd pity you Obsidian if it wasn't your own fault. 

I'm sure they're very scared.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

I hope you're entertained Obsidian.

 

 

 

If they actually cared one way or another about the little war you are trying to instigate here, they would lock this thread.

 

 

They locked like 5 of these threads if not more, if anything they realized its kind of pointless by now. So yes, of course they care or at least cared. THey will lock this one eventually too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

at least they've got a taboo word in the studio now. the L word.


I see the dreams so marvelously sad

 

The creeks of land so solid and encrusted

 

Where wave and tide against the shore is busted

 

While chanting by the moonlit twilight's bed

 

trees (of Twin Elms) could use more of Magran's touch © Durance

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I hope you're entertained Obsidian.

 

 

 

If they actually cared one way or another about the little war you are trying to instigate here, they would lock this thread.

 

 

They locked like 5 of these threads if not more, if anything they realized its kind of pointless by now. So yes, of course they care or at least cared. THey will lock this one eventually too.

 

 

I disagree, my experience has been the Mods have only closed down or consolidated repetitive threads around this topic

 

And they closed down threads if a Op asked it to be done 


"We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” -  George Bernard Shaw

 

"What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A wise man once said:

 


Oh, the dragon's balls were blazing
As I stepped into his cave
Then I sliced his ****ing ****les
With a long and shiny blade

 

'Twas I who ****ed the dragon
****alizing ****aloo
And if you try to **** with me
Then I shall **** you too

 

Gotta get it on in the party zone
I gotta shoot a load in the party zone
Gotta lick a toad in the party zone
Gotta suck a chode in the party zone

I have absolutely no idea what this has to do with the discussion, but you will probably find meaning in it and comment hereof.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I have a lot to say about SJWs and not much of it is nice, but honestly I think this topic is done and dusted in terms of discussion. We already have a decent timeline of it all and beyond rehashing the same points, I'm not sure what else is there to be said. IMO, once Firedorn started posting and clarified things, that's really where discussion should end, at least in the PoE section.

I would settle for a mere definition at this point, from some of those who position themselves with regards to them.

Keep in mind this is my the way I use the term, rather than an all encompassing one that everyone uses. But I define SJWs as people who hold their hard left identity politics as the core part of their personality and morals to the point where injecting said politics into every part of their lives through "online activism" is the primary way they demonstrate that they are good people. Fighting for "equality" and "social justice" (by getting offended over a poem in a video game, or by a scientist's shirt while he celebrates landing a spacecraft on a moving comet).

 

Not all feminists are SJWs mind you, by definition they are an outspoken minority.

 

The problem is that when you base your entire personality on your politics, then everything is a potential nail that you need to hammer. And SJWs take that idea to an extreme. There's out of context clip of Anita Sarkeesian that describes it surprisingly well.

 

"Everything is sexist, everything is racist and you have to call it all out."

 

Because everything is potentially misogynist, racist, etc then there's no reason to have empathy for people who aren't part of their ingroup or follow their belief structure either. Why would you want to empathise with sexists and rape apologists?

 

The SJW ingroup supposedly a reversal of what society considers the ingroup (privileged), but in practice, really just means straight middle class or richer white women are at the top instead of middle class or richer straight white men. Because generally speaking, your life can't be that bad if you can afford to make online activism your core hobby and personality trait. Or in the case of others, your livelihood.

 

Of course, the lack of empathy and perspective SJWs show for things and people that fall outside their worldview can lead to some strange behaviours that many of them seem to exhibit.

 

Such as doublethink, where people like Erika thinks that the Firedorn poem is an unacceptable joke because it normalises abuse against people (trans people for whatever reason), yet think it's okay to consistently crack jokes about rounding up men into Auschwitz style death camps.

 

Or an ends justify the means rhetoric, like how MovieBob said that there's no bad tactics, only bad targets. It's okay to do or say horrible things to others if they "deserve" it. Like how an anti-SJW webcomics creator was doxxed, threatened with violence in dozens of calls and texts, harassed and temporarily fired due to SJWs spamming her employer with false claims of sexism and racism. SJWs then celebrated their "good" work when the firing become known.

 

Or straight up hypocrisy like Jonathan McIntosh "mansplaining" feminism to women who disagree with him.

 

Don't get me wrong, it is a horseshoe and there's crazies on both sides of the argument. But SJWs seem to carry a flagrant disregard for context and authorial intent when they complain. Meaning that anything can be oppression if they feel it is.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

 

 

Not really because as subjective as those "1-10 pain scale charts" are, physical pain can be measured, verified and more importantly denotes an underlying condition.    

Those charts actually exist because the pain cannot be measured, or verified. It's all subjective--what you say is an 8 might be a 5 to somebody else, etc. There is no "pain unit", no discreet measuring system. There is no way to objectively quantify pain.

 

 

Yep.  This is, incidentally, a large part of why people with chronic pain issues have such a hard time getting the regular medication they need without meeting with suspicion that they're junkies or the like.  It's a pretty serious problem that leaves many people suffering needlessly when their doctors won't believe them on what they're experiencing.

 

 

This is true. My fiance has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome; her main symptoms, beside dislocating joints and such, is simply severe chronic joint pain. I have a badly healed boxers fracture on my right hand and chronic arthritis in all of those knuckles, along with migraines. Both of us have real problems getting the pain medication we need because of this very issue.

 

Because obviously you guys suffering from severe pain your whole life is just the price one has to pay to keep those dirty drug-seekers from getting their hands on medication they don't deserve!

 

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that fortune has smiled on you in the sense that drug addiction (especially the insidious "But RX is safer." strain) hasn't touched you or yours in a major way. ---  Although I can sympathize with Katarack and their fiancé, cracking down on pill mills is the lesser of the two evils, even if it means extra hoops to jump through for people who's need is real.    

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that fortune has smiled on you in the sense that drug addiction (especially the insidious "But RX is safer." strain) hasn't touched you or yours in a major way. ---  Although I can sympathize with Katarack and their fiancé, cracking down on pill mills is the lesser of the two evils, even if it means extra hoops to jump through for people who's need is real.    

 

And while I can sympathise with what I gather is your situation, what I've seen in my life leads me to believe that the lesser evil is getting relief to the people who are suffering horrendously.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

I hope you're entertained Obsidian.

 

If they actually cared one way or another about the little war you are trying to instigate here, they would lock this thread.

 

 

They locked like 5 of these threads if not more, if anything they realized its kind of pointless by now. So yes, of course they care or at least cared. THey will lock this one eventually too.

 

 

Alright, I've pretty much fallen out of the thread by now and haven't been keeping attention, the only reason I popped in was because of some Likes, and I decided to check the last page real quick. Saw this, and..

 

...let's be clear on something. The Obsidian boards (seemingly) have a great deal of autonomy, and while this does not mean that moderation is not always the most reasonable thing in the world and is sometimes hamfisted or seemingly arbitrary (The two warnings I've gotten on my lifetime on these boards were.. weird).. the mods do not jump and snap to it at Obsidian's beck and call. I also have a personal belief that this is actually why Sawyer stays out of these forums, because they are a largely uncontrollable environment, even to him.

 

Whether this is because Obsidian actually doesn't try to micro-manage, whether due to company culture or policy, or because the moderators are stiff-necked in relation to the slippery slope of overzealous authority, I don't know, and I really don't care. I think they let these things live out of principle, and don't lock them down because they're "pointless", but when they're actually breaking the rules, have reached a point where they're entirely off topic, or they've reached the post limit (I think that's 20 pages).

 

I may not like all moderators, and some of them may seem moodier than others when it comes to this or that, or certain topics (which they more often seem to stay away from, probably so it doesn't drive them insane; or have their emotions mess with their moderator duties - which is actually pretty professional and reasonable).

 

In this ****storm, let's just get it clear that the moderation on these boards is actually overall great, especially as far as official boards go (Bioware boards entering what amounted to a complete lockdown when Dragon Age 2 was released comes to mind; and I will never forget losing all my phat lewt and DLC:s when getting banned on the boards after the whole Epic Community Event thing when I called Ray Muzyka a hack).

 

So no, "they" likely wouldn't lock this thread, whether they care about "the little war" or not. It's left open, because, it's, like, a free country, man.

 

 

I also want to extend this to the QA Team and the Devs that actually do choose to engage us in conversation on the boards, and have in my experience never acted like the ****grinning splerglords that they probably could act as in any other forum environment, or force upon this environment, if they really wanted. Even that little "We've confirmed this and added it to the list" from QA in the bug threads actually do more than I think you realize.

 

There's a lot of **** going on, I doubt any of you will even see this, I doubt you're even watching these threads by now, but you people are great, and you should hear that more often, in-between the sometimes harsh criticism. Making points, no matter how good, sometimes makes us worse people than we should be. Eight cheers to you.

 

  • Like 4

t50aJUd.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

...by getting offended over a poem in a video game, or by a scientist's shirt while he celebrates landing a spacecraft on a moving comet

 

Of course, the lack of empathy and perspective SJWs show for things and people that fall outside their worldview can lead to some strange behaviours that many of them seem to exhibit.

 

So you're saying that we should all just accept an obviously transmisogynistic poem in the game, despite the fact that there are trans individuals playing the game? That ought to make it welcoming for said trans players.

 

Or that it's perfectly appropriate for a high-ranking scientist present for a monumental, historic moment to be wearing attire that portrays women as sex objects, despite the documented misogyny that already discourages women from entering the science fields? That must make women comfortable working around you!

 

And somehow, those who point out such sexism are depicted as having a "lack of empathy and perspective" by apologists such as yourself.

 

Please do enlighten me.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you guys considered the threads get locked because they devolve into childish mudslinging rather than productive discussion?

 

Cuz dats what happens.

  • Like 3

"The Courier was the worst of all of them. The worst by far. When he died the first time, he must have met the devil, and then killed him."

 

 

Is your mom hot? It may explain why guys were following her ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's more art in this thread than in all the tombstones of PoE put together. Thanks for saving my morning evensong and PrimeJunta :D I knew there was a reason I kept coming back even after limericking ended.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And thus we come around full circle, given that apparently diagnosing pain isn't as advanced as I believed (I'll have to try to remember to ask my doctor about it on my next appointment while getting an estimate of how many more years I have before being forced to take the next step towards becoming a cyborg.) we're back to the problem that one man's seven is another man's three. (Of course, no matter which "solution" is used, self medication will still remain a problem.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

...by getting offended over a poem in a video game, or by a scientist's shirt while he celebrates landing a spacecraft on a moving comet

 

Of course, the lack of empathy and perspective SJWs show for things and people that fall outside their worldview can lead to some strange behaviours that many of them seem to exhibit.

 

So you're saying that we should all just accept an obviously transmisogynistic poem in the game, despite the fact that there are trans individuals playing the game? That ought to make it welcoming for said trans players.

 

Or that it's perfectly appropriate for a high-ranking scientist present for a monumental, historic moment to be wearing attire that portrays women as sex objects, despite the documented misogyny that already discourages women from entering the science fields? That must make women comfortable working around you!

 

And somehow, those who point out such sexism are depicted as having a "lack of empathy and perspective" by apologists such as yourself.

 

Please do enlighten me.

 

 

So you're saying that the game should be completely overhauled and cut to pieces because there are parts that contain things like rape? Should we sit here and accept lore that obviously condones rape enough to accept it in game when there are people who have been raped playing the game? That ought to make it welcoming for said rape survivors.

 

Or is it possible that a minority of people are so hellbent on finding crusades that they'll look for the worst in everything just to have a reason to be outraged? Just to have a reason to say that they're fighting anything? A group of people that don't mind the risque as long as it follows their particular set of morals, otherwise it's too offensive and should be censored?

 

And somehow, those who point out the irony and fallacies in those arguments are depicted as "misogynists, rape apologists, racists, and bigots" by the perpetually offended such as yourself.

 

Please do enlighten me.

Edited by MistarDurk
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

 

 

Not really because as subjective as those "1-10 pain scale charts" are, physical pain can be measured, verified and more importantly denotes an underlying condition.

Those charts actually exist because the pain cannot be measured, or verified. It's all subjective--what you say is an 8 might be a 5 to somebody else, etc. There is no "pain unit", no discreet measuring system. There is no way to objectively quantify pain.

 

Yep. This is, incidentally, a large part of why people with chronic pain issues have such a hard time getting the regular medication they need without meeting with suspicion that they're junkies or the like. It's a pretty serious problem that leaves many people suffering needlessly when their doctors won't believe them on what they're experiencing.

 

This is true. My fiance has Ehlers-Danlos syndrome; her main symptoms, beside dislocating joints and such, is simply severe chronic joint pain. I have a badly healed boxers fracture on my right hand and chronic arthritis in all of those knuckles, along with migraines. Both of us have real problems getting the pain medication we need because of this very issue.

 

Can we turn this into a "fun with physicians" thread? You can't get the medicine you need because they don't believe your pain is as bad as you say, and I'm getting constantly increased dosages of prescription drugs that have no effect. 288mg (36*8 ) of Concerta/Methylphenidatehydrochloride per day? And another 40mg (4*10)of Ritalin/Methylphenidatehydrochloride on top of that? Sure, can I have a Pez dispenser with it? I prefer Cherry and Lemon, Strawberry is scrub tier.

 

@Luckmann Did you read my GG anthem at least? I hope you read it. You're in it.

I didn't, but it's funny, because I've never identified as a GG:er. laughing.gif

 

 

...by getting offended over a poem in a video game, or by a scientist's shirt while he celebrates landing a spacecraft on a moving comet

 

Of course, the lack of empathy and perspective SJWs show for things and people that fall outside their worldview can lead to some strange behaviours that many of them seem to exhibit.

 

So you're saying that we should all just accept an obviously transmisogynistic poem in the game, despite the fact that there are trans individuals playing the game? That ought to make it welcoming for said trans players.

 

Or that it's perfectly appropriate for a high-ranking scientist present for a monumental, historic moment to be wearing attire that portrays women as sex objects, despite the documented misogyny that already discourages women from entering the science fields? That must make women comfortable working around you!

 

And somehow, those who point out such sexism are depicted as having a "lack of empathy and perspective" by apologists such as yourself.

 

Please do enlighten me.

 

No, I think he's saying that it's not obviously "transmisogynistic" at all. Because it's a joke. And if you are offended by it, whether you're a "transperson" or not, you're being ridiculous.

 

And I think a lot of people agree that the shirt was inappropriate. But not because it's "sexist", or that it portrayed women at sex objects, because it wasn't, and it didn't, but because of the high-profile nature of the event. Inappropriate? Yes.

 

The reasonable thing would have been to send a mail, saying, "Hey, your employee's doesn't really convey a professional attitude in casual attire, even if I realize that they tend to be experts in their field not usually working with the public, and thus not accustomed to presentations of this kind, so you might want to think about that in the future", not bully a genius-level expert in his field over Twitter and Tumblr until the point of crying due to wearing a tacky - not misogynistic, not sexist, not oppressive, not offensive - shirt. A shirt he wore because he wanted to show off something a female friend of his made professionally, because he was proud of her and she was proud of her work.

 

To even argue that this was not the lowest point of feminism in the history of civilization really underlines the sheer insanity SJW:s tend to exhude. It is utter lunacy to even defend the whole thing as warranted. Meaningless, pitiful, pathethic SJW:s without anything better to do decided to crush one of the brightest minds on the planet over a perceived slight, at the peak of his career, at the event of what was his life's achievement, the culmination of decades of study, years of work.

 

This is exactly why we hate SJW:s so much. This is exactly why people want to cart them off and put them into the back of a diesel truck with a reverb exhaust pipe.

 

That is the lack of empathy. That's the "somehow". Because that's what happened. Somehow, pointing this "sexism" out - which no-one would reasonable even care about - and bully a man to tears, was more important than appreciating the work done, the advancement of civilization and technology, and the cultural impact of the context. And that's the lack of perspective. SJW:s are the blindest, most deluded people on the planet, and I would rather support a somalian warlord than SJW:s. At least the somalian warlord can blame circumstance, SJW:s are ignorant, pathethic, soulless, vindictive, delusional and violent little ****lords by choice.

  • Like 4

t50aJUd.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Have you guys considered the threads get locked because they devolve into childish mudslinging rather than productive discussion?

 

Cuz dats what happens.

 

I totally agree.

 

In this thread alone, those who are empathetic to feminist causes, or who are critical of the limerick, are referred to as "feminazis," "idiots," "lunatics," "crazy f***s", and "loons" and also have "mental health issues" and "general loserdom."

 

You're right on the dot with the childish mudslinging.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you're saying that we should all just accept an obviously transmisogynistic poem in the game

I disagree that it's an obviously transmisogynistic poem. The target of the joke's mockery wasn't the supposed trans person involved, it was the man who's small mindedness led to his unnecessary death. We know this because the author of the joke himself confirmed as such, that it wasn't aimed at transpeople nor had transpeople involved in the joke at all. It was a light hearted joke making fun of a medieval fictional guy who overreacts to a stressful situation relating back to his own sexuality.

 

Or that it's perfectly appropriate for a high-ranking scientist present for a monumental, historic moment to be wearing attire that portrays women as sex objects,

I disagree that the shirt portrays women as sex objects, at most it portrays cartoon women as sexually desirable. By his sleeve tatts and interviews prior to the shirt incident, we can surmise that Dr. Taylor is not a stereotypical scientist. It's not like he had a reputation for being sharply dressed and suddenly decided to wear this shirt, he has a well documented history of terrible fashion choices which this particular shirt blends into.

 

He probably wanted to have a bit of fun with attire that is not associated with scientists of his calibre like he has been known to do in the past, while also helping to promote the female friend who made the shirt for him.

 

That's the context. What happened to Matt Taylor was an absolute disgrace and I can't ever see eye to eye on this issue with anyone who believes that he somehow deserved it in any way shape or form.

 

To add to that, we haven't heard any of his coworkers complain about his behaviour or choice of attire in the least and to our knowledge, he still works there with the same level of authority. If he truly perpetuated a culture uncomfortable for women or sexist in nature, we would've eventually heard stories about it since the media at the time was hunting for blood.

 

Finally, to be frank, if a person chooses to let some guy's tacky shirt prevent them from entering their desired field/career, they probably weren't cut out for it in the first place.

Edited by Crusty
  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...