What ending did you choose?

[Messier-31]

 

What if the baby was Hollowborn?

 

So what? The Hylea ending specifically states that the souls return to the bodies of the hollowborn they were intended for. So even if she already delivered the baby, then it's no longer hollowborn now.

 

Wow, your reading is really selective. 

[The Sharmat]

I've finished the game multiple times. With my first character I did the Hylea ending, but that was because it suited the character. If I were in that position, I'd have sided with Galawain/Magran/Abydon. In most cases the damage is done.

 

I've never seen why anyone would side with Rymrygand/Ondra/Skaen besides the crazy radical fanatic types, personally. I guess the writers needed to cover every base.

[fgalkin]

Isn't picking Galawain essentially destroying all those souls, then feeding them to existing ones? 

[The Sharmat]

To an extent. But it's also the only one that actually (in a limited area and a limited period of time) goes against the entropy that's grinding every soul to little useless specks. Given the course of things in Eora, at one point all these souls may well have been part of much larger souls in the first place. And it's not like you don't regularly get entirely new people on the wheel of reincarnation. It's just usually they're lesser people, not greater.

[fgalkin]

To an extent. But it's also the only one that actually (in a limited area and a limited period of time) goes against the entropy that's grinding every soul to little useless specks. Given the course of things in Eora, at one point all these souls may well have been part of much larger souls in the first place. And it's not like you don't regularly get entirely new people on the wheel of reincarnation. It's just usually they're lesser people, not greater.

You're still destroying thousands of souls. Sure, they will be ground down by entropy eventually, but we too will be ground down by entropy and die of old age, but that doesn't mean we can just go around murdering people. 

[The Sharmat]

They're not destroyed. They're just returned closer to a previous state. Very likely all these souls were part of greater souls at some point. Besides, I hesitate to call it murder. They don't normally retain any kind of identity in their post-death state for long.

[fgalkin]

They're not destroyed. They're just returned closer to a previous state. Very likely all these souls were part of greater souls at some point. Besides, I hesitate to call it murder. They don't normally retain any kind of identity in their post-death state for long.

No, I think that it's made clear that souls are destroyed when they are rendered into essence. Children were part of their mothers, too, once upon a time, but you wouldn't blend babies and feed them to their mothers, would you? And while souls are not conscious until they are reborn, they do carry the memories and personalities of past lives, as numerous Awakenings demonstrate. It's literally the Sacrificial Bloodlines quest all over again, with you acting as Simoc. I don't see how you can oppose him, but also do exactly what he wanted to do, except on a much greater scale. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by fgalkin

[The Sharmat]

Souls are essence, at all points in their existence. And if they carry all the memory and experience of past lives (including apparently fragments from other souls that might have merged with them), what good is it if in 99.999999% of cases they're never accessed or used. Not to mention that usually these things are lost over time to fragmentation. The Watcher just has an unusually strong soul.

 

Simoc is working with someone that is currently alive, not a mindless bit of essence with some memories that may eventually but probably not be accessed by someone they inhabit down the road a thousand years later.

[fgalkin]

So, by that reasoning, it would have been ok to take the essence of someone in a coma, since they are also "mindless" and unresponsive? Souls aren't mindless, since they are a repository of the personality and memories, but they are usually unconscious for the final transition. Not always, however- see lost souls, spirits, fampyrs, Iovara, etc. The Forgiven, too, since they do the Watcher's bidding and slow his or her fall. So it appears that removing a soul from the body does not render it into "mindless essence," as you claim it does. 

[The Sharmat]

It usually does. The game deals with special cases because the normal case is boring and RPG heros have to see weird stuff. Of course by my reasoning putting lost souls to rest is at best a mercy killing and at worst murder, because you've subsumed their identity and it will in all likelihood never return. So it's a bit bleak.

 

And yeah sure, if the coma is irreversible and they're not experiencing anything and never will, who gives a crap? You are now aware (if you somehow weren't already) that animancy is just organ harvesting and psychiatric medicine in fantasy form.

Edit: Come to think of it, anyone else find it weird that a soul seems to carry absolutely nothing that is inherent to a person in this setting? It animates the body, and apparently retains a record of memories even if you normally can't access them, but it seems to inform absolutely nothing about who a person actually IS. Aloth and Iselmyr are totally different people in every way conceivable. Personality seems to have little to nothing to do with the soul, beyond that a very mangled one prevents a normal personality from forming.

 

Basically, if all a soul is is a vague identityless animating force and sharing a soul between generations doesn't mean the people in question have anything else to do with each other...what good IS a soul?

Edited April 4, 2018 by The Sharmat

[fgalkin]

 

 

Edit: Come to think of it, anyone else find it weird that a soul seems to carry absolutely nothing that is inherent to a person in this setting? It animates the body, and apparently retains a record of memories even if you normally can't access them, but it seems to inform absolutely nothing about who a person actually IS. Aloth and Iselmyr are totally different people in every way conceivable. Personality seems to have little to nothing to do with the soul, beyond that a very mangled one prevents a normal personality from forming.

Actually, it seems to be the opposite. Aloth gained an entirely new personality just from his soul Awakening. In our world, split personality usually occurs due to psychological or neurological reasons, but in Eora, the soul Awakening is enough to cause it in an otherwise healthy person. Likewise, Thaos is able to retain his personality, no matter what body he is wearing at the moment. So, the soul is what drives the personality, but this personality is erased each time the soul is reborn, and is shaped anew by the body and the environment (which is why I guess the hollowborn with animal souls went feral- the souls were born into animal bodies and formed animal personalities, and the transplantation process messed something up)

[The Sharmat]

In our world split personality only happens on TV. I think you misunderstood what I was saying though. It appears in this setting that at most a soul retains a copy of a personality that arose entirely independent of its influence, which is weird given in most mythologies the soul is the most essential part of the self. here it's rather superfluous to identity, the body and its experiences being far more important. Souls seem to just be something that biology and environment leave an imprint on, instead of being something that is the "real you" but filtered through your body and experiences. Does that make sense?

[fgalkin]

*ahem* 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/conditions/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder

 

 

 

 Souls seem to just be something that biology and environment leave an imprint on, instead of being something that is the "real you" but filtered through your body and experiences. Does that make sense?

Explain Thaos, then. Or Iselmyr, for that matter. 

[The Sharmat]

We're going in circles at this point. I can't think of a better way to explain what I'm trying to say.

[fgalkin]

If the souls are "just  something that biology and environment leave an imprint on" then how is Thaos able to override the personality of whatever body he's in? It would not be possible under your model, but very possible under mine. 

[The Sharmat]

By understanding the mechanism of it and making the imprint so strong with divine intervention that it never changes? Woedica apparently has his soul well in hand for every part of the cycle. They even manage to tweak his biology so he's always born exactly the same man, physically, too. He's not just thaos' soul in a bunch of different bodies through the years. He's always the same guy that originally was born in Engwith. To Thaos, at least, the biology does seem to matter.

EDIT: Wait are you talking about his soul projection when he possesses people? That's always very short term, and still using Woedica's cheats and Thaos' knowledge of animancy. Plus it's usually cohabitating with another soul. And finally, I never denied that souls retain a memory of what was there before. I'm seriously not sure either of us understands what the other is getting at.

Edited April 7, 2018 by The Sharmat

[fgalkin]

Yes, but if a soul is merely an imprint, then suppressing another's soul should not give you control over their body, and yet that is exactly what happens when Thaos possesses people. Here's another case for you- the Devil of Caroc. If the soul is merely a collection of imprints and memories, how is it able to animate the golem with the original personality's intact?  

[The Sharmat]

Yes, but if a soul is merely an imprint, then suppressing another's soul should not give you control over their body, and yet that is exactly what happens when Thaos possesses people.

I don't see why that necessarily follows since it's established the imprint lasts multiple lifetimes but is usually just sitting around in storage until the soul fragments or recombines.

 

Devil of Caroc: Not a natural case anymore than Thaos. Perhaps as long as a soul is attached to something and not floating in the ether identity isn't leeched from it like it normally would be?

[Tanjaxxx]

Galawain's choice was best for my "The strong take from the weak" mentality-like druid raider, while Hylia's choice was best for my Artist. As for my cruel Skean priestess, allying with Woedica worked best. 

 

My personal favourite though? Can't chose between Galawain and Hylia as dumb as that may sound....They both fit me, or at the very least, they used to at one point....Being both an artist and a (what Durance calls Magren) is both a curse and a blessing lol. 

 

Update: I'd say Hylia's choice fits me best now. But Galawain would be my best bet a few years back. lol. 

 

Still...........I think I prefer Galawain's choice. xDDD 

 

But ya, I did all of those 3. 

Edited April 20, 2018 by Tanjaxxx

[Cerebro83]

Considering the ending slides, I think Galawain is the best choice, as it results in the most positive outcome for the Dyrwood. In my playthroughs, I switched between Galawain and Berath. If I was in the Watcher's shoes in real life, however, I guess I'd take Hylea in order to give the remaining Holloborns their souls back.

[house2fly]

It's worth bearing in mind that with Hylea at least SOME children will be saved, even if not many; every other option involves writing those same children off

Edited April 22, 2018 by house2fly

[The Sharmat]

Aufra is assuredly screwed in all but the Hylea ending since you just saw Thaos recharge the relay at Cilant Lis. Do it for Calisca.

[jtbehnke]

Aufra is assuredly screwed in all but the Hylea ending since you just saw Thaos recharge the relay at Cilant Lis. Do it for Calisca.

 

From what I understand, this isn't the case.  If you completed her quest, you get a letter from her in Deadfire stating her kid is healthy and wants to meet you someday, regardless of which ending you actually chose, which makes sense since the reason the Hollowborn stuff is happening is because of Thaos' active meddling, and once that meddling stops kids can be born as normal.

 

That said, Hylea's up near the top of my list, though I think Galawain is probably the best choice for the Dyrwood.  On the other hand, I also do feel a bit of a tug towards Wael, mainly due to Hiravias, though I'll probably avoid his request because it implicitly asks you to break a promise to another god, an act guaranteed to cause more suffering and just not cool if you roleplay your Watcher as a real stand-up person, like I plan to do.

[Rheios]

I wiggled between Berath and Hylea. I like Berath's consistency, stoicism, and coldly pragmatic view on things and thought those values he brought to the view on how to deal with the souls were well argued. But I also appreciated Hylea's love of art and life and hope for the future by giving the children back their souls so that they had the chance to grow and improve. I've grown to appreciate Abydon and Galawain as well, seeing as how they also seek to empower humanity, but something about Berath just runs in line with my own views and in my main watcher. I ended up going Berath for the first run, Hylea for the second, and for this third one I'm going Abydon/Galawain. 

I actually was okay with most of the gods, it was really only Woedica, Eothas, Skaen, and Rymrgand that I saw any problems with. And I could have backed Woedica's concept of Law and Vengeance if she wasn't stealing kids' souls to fund her power. That *has* to be worth of Vengeance under any sane Law, so I can only deduce her a bit of a failure at her position and deserving of the punishment inflicted by the other deities. Eothas I kindof liked at first but his approach seemed very counter to his sphere as well. Skaen and Rymrgand  are just a concept/spheres I disagree with in general, more than  anyone I believed was doing a bad job at representing their spheres. I disliked Ondra's personality but couldn't discount her dedication to her purpose either. 

Edited July 18, 2018 by Rheios