What's the point of pumping stealth?

[mforww]

Obviously I use "stealth" for the purpose of detecting traps, but beyond that I don't really see the point. Sneak attack is linked to flanking and status effects, so it doesn't even matter for rogues.

 

Also, if you sneak past everyone in a dungeon you'll miss a ton of loot, so you're really just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Lastly, it takes like 1 measly rank in stealth to be able to see an enemy at the edge of the fog of war (in fact, you can sometimes see them first without stealthing at all) so if you want to set up traps or glyphs you can do that without any additional points in stealth.

 

So why would anybody actually put points into this?

[Idleray]

Exactly. No reason.

 

The only reason would be to get into a good enough position for an opening volley with hard hitting ranged weapons like arquebuses.

[Luckmann]

Positioning. Positioning is half the battle in Pillars of Eternity, and just being able to get the tank a little closer (or as close as possible) to the enemy is worth it's weight in gold. Or getting your (Melee, especially) DPS into position in anticipation of the Tank engaging.

 

Also, being able to open combat with a good volley practically trivializes a lot of encounters.

 

Finally, as a side note, Stealth is not used for detecting traps, so yeah, don't try to use Stealth for detecting traps. Mechanics is the only skill used for detection of anything, be it secrets or traps, as well as for the disarming of traps and lockpicking. Mechanics and Stealth are the undisputed kings of the skill system, with Athletics being annoyance-b-gone at best. The rest is largely needless in most cases.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[DIIscIIple]

1) You can scout.

 

2) You don't need half the loot that you get.

 

3) There's a rogue third level skill 'backstab' that works specifically off stealth.  It's good for instagibbing mages especially if you have an escape skill probably - I don't use rogues.  Because they're nerds.

 

4) The other skills are not great either.  You need one mechanics guy at like 10, three points in athletics, maybe a lore guy at 10, and what else?  Five percent extra time on your pots is not overwhelming.  This is the main point IMO.

 

I think that one stealth guy, if you wanna use a rogue especially, is better than the alternatives.  But I'm not sure what the Damned will think.

[DIIscIIple]

I suspect that Luckmann is right about a higher level of play.  I just run in with 6 fighter types and never position.

[Prime-Mover]

Obviously I use "stealth" for the purpose of detecting traps, but beyond that I don't really see the point. Sneak attack is linked to flanking and status effects, so it doesn't even matter for rogues.

 

Also, if you sneak past everyone in a dungeon you'll miss a ton of loot, so you're really just shooting yourself in the foot.

 

Lastly, it takes like 1 measly rank in stealth to be able to see an enemy at the edge of the fog of war (in fact, you can sometimes see them first without stealthing at all) so if you want to set up traps or glyphs you can do that without any additional points in stealth.

 

So why would anybody actually put points into this?

I use it for robbing places, and with regards to encounters, I use my rogue to get close enough to see the exact numbers and positions of the enemy. E.g. they may have a caster somewhere within the group of enemies, whom I can't see unless I go further than the edge of FOW.

[Luckmann]

[...]

 

3) There's a rogue third level skill 'backstab' that works specifically off stealth.  It's good for instagibbing mages especially if you have an escape skill probably - I don't use rogues.  Because they're nerds.

 

[...]

 

It's pretty gimp, actually, since Combat immediately breaks Stealth, and you don't want to initiate with a Rogue in the middle of a group of enemies. Yes, you could probably more or less insta-gib many mages and such, but the poor rogue would get instantly swarmed. It's very circumstantial at best, unfortunately.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Luckmann

[Elizabeth Sterling]

Never needed stealth higher than 4 on my thief and 2 on the rest to get the loot and positions I needed. Total waste of time to invest in sadly. (Then again so is Lore for most characters and mechanics for all but one designated trap/lock specialist.) Skills in general are a bit of a waste as they stand.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Elizabeth Sterling

[Lysen]

Stealth is good for scouting and for stealing. Unfortunately, there is not much to steal (also because NPCs detect your really fast even if your stealth is very high). Say what you want about stealth in IE games, but it was more fun.

[DIIscIIple]

Well I was just working in theory with that point because I haven't really tried rogues.  Does anyone else feel dissapointed in the skills in general?  At some point it's been just 'who gives a damn' except for one high mechanics guy.

[mforww]

I'm ok with not all of the skills being super high-impact. It's sort of like pen and paper DnD... you've got skills that are awesome when you need to use them, but sit around doing nothing 99% of the time. That's fine.

 

It's just that I really don't see much use to improving stealth whatsoever. With everything else, there are skills challenges in dialogue, and some tangential effects like consumable duration. With stealth, I haven't use outside of combat, and therefore no reason to ever increase it beyond 1.

 

If a skill isn't worth putting any points into, that's an issue for me.

[b0rsuk]

In defense of other skills, if you know what you're doing you can use Lore to great effect. Your back row characters, especially those who are mostly on auto-attack like Sagani, can use Lore for support scrolls. Maelstorm scroll is craftable and great single target damage. Scroll of revival is sweet too.

 

And once you get started with scrolls, you realize Survival can be nice. You get more for from your potion money. Technically it works on "consumables", so some scrolls benefit as well. I haven't tested if it works on traps too, but I wouldn't be surprised.

 

Stealth would be MUCH more useful, if....

a) it made you see what loot enemies have

b) levels were designed more with stealth in mind. For example some encounters would have levels to open alternate paths and skips them, others could have "explosive barrels" in the middle of them. Something you could trigger before the fight starts to make it easier, like dropping a rock on someone. Also, in many cases you find useful scrolls and potions right before hard encounters. For instance I remember a scroll of revival before a really tough fight, and potion of bulwark against elements before some elemental stuff. Typically they're hidden. This promotes Mechanics skill. If those silver bullets were hidden IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ENCOUNTER, that would promote Stealth. For instance a room of banshees has a scroll of Prayer Against Fear in it. If you just run inside and kill banshees, the scroll won't be that useful because they're already gone and you're back to fighting something else. But sneak in and get it BEFORE fight...

c) speaking of level design, simply having dead ends with monsters but no loot would promote stealth. If you kill monsters that don't seem to be guarding anything, it's all for nothing.

d) A big issue is the ability to just charge ahead and then reload once you know what's coming. This could be fixed if monsters randomly moved within a small radius. If you didn't know where exactly each monster is, you'd be more inclined to train Stealth, so you can spy with a thief and pick the right moment to attack.

 

One trick with Stealth is to make the sneaker wear Boots of Speed. They grant +3 Movement Speed, which lets you get away with even lower Stealth skill. You can cover more distance in sight of enemies in less time.

Edited April 8, 2015 by b0rsuk

[Atheosis]

Never needed stealth higher than 4 on my thief and 2 on the rest to get the loot and positions I needed. Total waste of time to invest in sadly. (Then again so is Lore for most characters and mechanics for all but one designated trap/lock specialist.) Skills in general are a bit of a waste as they stand.

 

Lore is awesome.  Scroll use on non spellcasters can be really handy.

[Elizabeth Sterling]

I've never found it to be so, though I do have two ciphers, a mage and a cleric in my party atm and they're all busy using their own abilities. The only person who'd have the time to use them would be the paladin and she's busy soaking agro.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Elizabeth Sterling

[gkathellar]

... backstab?

 

I mean, backstab isn't worth it.

 

But.

[k1rage]

all the skills are kinda meh, aside from mechanics which you only need on one guy 

[LadyCrimson]

I like having a few points in Athletics simply because I get tired of everyone whining "I'm so sleepy, can we stop a while?" every time I travel a couple maps. Outside of that I don't see much use for it.

 

I haven't been using spell scrolls at all yet so I have little use for Lore, but I do see a function for it on casters so they can cast spells when their spell limit runs out vs. only using a wand (eg, don't have to rest as often if you want). So important for caster usability.

 

Stealth - I'm not a Rogue person so honestly I have little use for it. I've been pumping it a bit recently on one npc so I can get a little closer which as mentioned, is nice for positioning. But not terribly necessary except on maybe the hardest gameplay options, which I haven't bothered with yet. Not to mention the (occasional) scripted scene that negates it entirely regardless by positioning you where you were not, at the end of the dialogue trigger.

[Ohioastro]

Stealth also lets you steal things in town without getting the reputation hit for being a thief.

[b0rsuk]

"Load Game" is one of biggest enemies of Stealth. If encounters weren't exactly the same you load game (for example because monsters move randomly or traps are in slightly random spots)...

[Elizabeth Sterling]

Stealth also lets you steal things in town without getting the reputation hit for being a thief.

Yes but that doesn't change that I"ve never needed more than Stealth 4 to loot the town blind. In theory I love the stealth mechanics - you can't just be invisible, you just try to be subtle but a stealth heavy build is almost totally pointless.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Elizabeth Sterling

[Zenicetus]

I think stealth is fine in this game, even playing as a main character Rogue. It just takes a leap of faith; accepting that this isn't a D&D/Baldur's Gate-style Rogue, and working within the game mechanics. 

 

Yeah, I miss backstab openers.... sneaking up behind the most dangerous Wizard in a room. But this is just different. I use stealth for scouting ahead of the party, to get the enemy positions and numbers. And for setting up an opening ranged shot, so it isn't just pulling the first enemy I see, but maybe a more dangerous one in the enemy group. After the fight starts, it's all positioning for the sneak attack bonus, and trying to stay out of engagement. It's just a different challenge.

 

 

 

[Daemonjax]

Some cypher abilities are very short range.

 

You can also steal stuff.

 

It would be better if stealth wasn't linked to the whole party, of course.

 

I like to buy three level 1 mercs at the first inn, and one is a rogue to be a lock monkey.  There's some chests that have decent stuff in it the requires 8+ mechanics or one less but  bunch of lockpicks. I throw some points into his stealth just because.  Stealth 6+ is decent enough for everything I can think of.  

Edited April 9, 2015 by Daemonjax

[draek]

High Stealth + Blundermass + Cypher = insta powerspam fun.

[Rosveen]

I think stealth is fine in this game, even playing as a main character Rogue. It just takes a leap of faith; accepting that this isn't a D&D/Baldur's Gate-style Rogue, and working within the game mechanics.

 

Yeah, I miss backstab openers.... sneaking up behind the most dangerous Wizard in a room. But this is just different. I use stealth for scouting ahead of the party, to get the enemy positions and numbers. And for setting up an opening ranged shot, so it isn't just pulling the first enemy I see, but maybe a more dangerous one in the enemy group. After the fight starts, it's all positioning for the sneak attack bonus, and trying to stay out of engagement. It's just a different challenge.

The problem is, I never needed high level stealth for this. I got to 5, I think, on my rogue because I thought I'd use Backstab regularly, hell was I wrong. So I stopped pumping it and also didn't give much or anything at all to my companions. I still did perfectly fine in combat. Positioning is probably more important on higher difficulties (I play on Normal), but even so, that means I have a skill now that isn't worth maxing out. In fact, only two skills are worth maxing out on someone (Mechanics and Lore), two are useful for anyone with just a few points (Lore and Athletics) and others are just... there. Might come in handy here and there, but if you don't have them, it isn't a problem at all. That's a strangely small variety of skills to invest in.

[Minezeye]

Meta meta meta meta....

 

Thats all u guys complain about...

 

x power has no use (reason to lvl) due to Meta...

 

Stealth is awesome and putting more points into it allows you to rob **** while NPC's are standing right next to you.

 

The more points I put, the easier it is for me to rob your house while your standing right in front of me.... Im that GOOD!

 

Combining stealth with some speed potions and movement related food you can stealth into a fully MOB packed room like a ****ing ninja and take out a caster and then disappear again and move to another target.

 

I can take out 2 or 3 mobs in a  room before they even know wtf is goin on....

 

If your too lazy to have fun and roleplay your characters thats your problem. Your not using your imagination enough

 

Stop looking at numbers and start having fun. Not every ability has to be an IWIN button.

 

Some things are more for flavor and playstyle. Like Stealth.