Seems like XP balance is out of whack

[Hiro Protagonist II]

The difference between Beastiary XP and trap XP:

While the former is a compromise towards the pro-combat-xp-crowd, nobody and I mean literally nobody ever asked for trap XP in the first place... This is something the devs and devs alone insisted on having.

 

Not correct. There were people who did ask for trap xp. And the dev's listened.

[Stun]

@ Stun; Not really. Got about 800XP from Elder Lions in a certain Maw, which accounted to like 2-3 traps... there are 12 traps in that den. This repeats in all dungeons where traps are common, which is based on the fact that mine and lockpick XP itself is a horribly idea.

Really? we're going to base our argument on 1 friggin map in the game?

 

Why don't we take into account the entire bestiary. Because that's what's really at play here. The fact of the matter is that a good deal of it involves monsters who's creature entry is >1000xp. Not to mention the fact that most traps in this game aren't level 10. And...In a game where the level cap is just 66,000xp, the XP rewards for filling out the whole Bestiary (which is thousands upon thousands of XP) are....massive.

 

 

Can't look me in the eye and honestly believe forgo-ing a key since "level 10 lock" lockpicking is better is any kind of gamedesign or roleplaying a developer WANTS to instigate.

Sad fact though, it's true for PoE.

Unless of course, you decide to build your party without f*cking 50 billion-gillion ranks in mechanics, in which case you have made a serious build choice, which will see you having to forgo lock XP in favor of using that Key instead, which is the price you must pay for choosing to max out your stealth skill, or your survival skill instead. Edited April 9, 2015 by Stun

[Zwiebelchen]

@Luckman: thanks for explaining your issue in detail. And I can certainly agree with your standing on "murder-hobo experience" and how beastiary XP is actually not that much different.

But think of it from the developer perspective once:

There's a whole team of designers working on content and art assets throughout the game developement. Including models for monsters or event scripters for battles. Those guys create the content that makes or breaks your game. Artists want their work to be recognized; they want players to explore the content they created, not skip it.

 

That's the main reason why Blizzard made endgame raiding in WoW so casual: they realized that only 1% of people actually saw that raid content and the amazing dungeon and encounter designs that come with it. They wanted more players to see said content, simply because the amount of work X put into the game is the same, no matter if people see it or not. If only few people actually explore that content, it's a waste of effort and time.

 

If we apply this argumentation towards combat, then designers want players to battle each type of event at least once, so that at least that created content gets acknowledged. Content is very similar to art: a great painting is worth a damn if there's nobody seeing it.

 

That's why, as a developer, you want to incentivize players to try everything at least once (that's btw also why achievements are so popular among game developers). And I'm saying that from my own personal experience with mod-making: I always concentrated on content that people liked and wanted to play, putting less emphasis on stuff that was there and required for the scope of the project, but less popular in general. I still provided incentives to run that content, simply because if I invested my time into making it, I definitely wanted players to check it out.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Stun]

 

The difference between Beastiary XP and trap XP:

While the former is a compromise towards the pro-combat-xp-crowd, nobody and I mean literally nobody ever asked for trap XP in the first place... This is something the devs and devs alone insisted on having.

 

Not correct. There were people who did ask for trap xp. And the dev's listened.

 

Yeah, a LOT of us did, since that's how BG2 did it. You know, BG2....the Greatest of the IE games.

[Dee-Jay]

Well I did most of the quests on my playthrough and, including all 15 levels of Od Nua, and ended up being level 12 with the entire party by Act 3.

 

I think that the XP curve is basically balanced without Od Nua in mind, which iirc, was added as a stretch goal.

[Zwiebelchen]

 

 

The difference between Beastiary XP and trap XP:

While the former is a compromise towards the pro-combat-xp-crowd, nobody and I mean literally nobody ever asked for trap XP in the first place... This is something the devs and devs alone insisted on having.

 

Not correct. There were people who did ask for trap xp. And the dev's listened.

 

Yeah, a LOT of us did, since that's how BG2 did it. You know, BG2....the Greatest of the IE games.

 

 

This is like picking the worst feature of a game and presenting it as the holy grail.

 

Thieving skills in BG2 were just outright terrible... just like Imoen could open ALL locks throughout the game with her static 75 in lockpicking or how 100 stealth was enough to slice up everyone and their mother no matter what level the encounter was. And let's not even talk about all the weird useless extra stats like detect illusion.

 

If you, like me, played a thief as your MC once, you will notice just how terribly broken the game is in terms of thieving skills. At level 11, you literally just dump all your skillpoints into skills you never use because you've already maxed out everything worthwhile.

 

 

Backstabbing was the only reason to ever bring a true-class thief. And even that quickly became useless in the lategame when almost all difficult enemies had backstab immunity.

Obviously, there was also the lay trap ability. But nobody in their right mind would use that OP-as-**** mechanic as it's literally cheating the game (hello trap poison damage that interrupts the spells of Liches (who are immune to poison to begin with) through all their layers of protection spells).

 

So, no, learning from BG2 is not always good.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[PrimeJunta]

And multiclass or dual-class fighter/thieves were better at backstabbing anyway (because better THAC0).

Edited April 9, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Ohioastro]

From looking over the quest logs, the structure of the game is

 

You arrive in Defiance Bay at relatively low level (or you can);

 

There are a lot of open choices and quests, not level scaled, that take up the bulk of the game;

 

There are a few quests in Act II once the events in Defiance Bay play out.

 

All of this talk about "too much exp" misses the point:

how do you balance things that can be encountered by a party anywhere from level 4 to level 10 without level scaling?

 

"balanced encounters" don't match with "open world exploration and no level scaling".  Period. Everything else is a sideshow, and since I like both the open world aspect and the no level scaling aspect I think that searching for balance in trash mob encounters is missing the point.

 

By contrast, you can control the environment in boss encounters; and you could level scale them for PoTD.  And that would do a great deal more for the challenge level than sideshows like fiddling around with the experience levels.

[Cronstintein]

@Ohioastro  good question, couple ways you can come at it:

 

-Give marginal xp for side-questing, so you won't go from 5-9 just doing defiance bay stuff.  Make the gains more item-orientated maybe?  That still increases party strength but incrementally rather than across the board.

 

-Make some side encounters much more difficult than others.  Might be a good idea to give the player some warning before ramming them with a difficulty spike for those playing Iron mode. 

[AncientToaster]

Defiance Bay quests, especially the ones where all you do is walk back and forth (fetch quests) need to be toned down considerably. 

 

I've been doing some Act II Defiance Bay sidequests and they are just too rewarding for little effort. 

[DrBrian]

That trap/lockpick xp is plainly an abomination. As mentioned before it just forces on you an optimal course of action for nonsensical reason. It mades more sense in BG2 because there everything was awarding xp, but in PoE it's just complete nonsense you would gain xp for lockpicking doors you could open with a key while you gain nothing for spotting secrets.

Edited April 9, 2015 by DrBrian

[AncientToaster]

 

 

The difference between Beastiary XP and trap XP:

While the former is a compromise towards the pro-combat-xp-crowd, nobody and I mean literally nobody ever asked for trap XP in the first place... This is something the devs and devs alone insisted on having.

 

Not correct. There were people who did ask for trap xp. And the dev's listened.

 

Yeah, a LOT of us did, since that's how BG2 did it. You know, BG2....the Greatest of the IE games.

 

 

Just because BG2 had trap XP doesn't mean it made sense to add it to Pillars of Eternity.

 

Personally I think it's really stupid that I get 250 xp for disarming a trap, or opening a lock. I never liked it in Baldurs Gate 2 either, but that game managed to balance XP out much better than this game does. 

 

Someone said it either in this topic or another, that the XP needed to reach the next level needs to change. Baldurs Gate 2 (The greatest of IE games according to you) made you essentially double the requirement each time. Why didn't they do that here? I mean they are adding trap and lockpicking xp, why not emulate the leveling mechanic? Doubling Xp would mean they could probably get away with giving you XP for killing monsters and other enemies, instead of the silly bestiary thing we have going on now.

[MountainTiger]

 Baldurs Gate 2 (The greatest of IE games according to you) made you essentially double the requirement each time. Why didn't they do that here?

 

BG2 leveling is mostly linear; see the chart here, and remember that you start with between 89k XP (new character/import from BG1 at the original cap) and 161k (BG1 cap with expansion). Druids are the only exception; every other class goes to linear progression somewhere between 220k and 375k. BG1 is mostly exponential, with a great deal of class-by-class eccentricity.

[Matt516]

Agreed that trap/lock XP is an abomination. Directly incentivizes NOT picking up keys - which is idiotic beyond all belief. I won't mod the XP requirements, at least not my first or second playthrough. I want to see if the devs can fix it first haha.

 

But if anyone releases a mod to remove trap/lock XP, I will install it in a heartbeat. Walking around town compulsively unlocking everything even if I don't steal anything is the behavior of a crazy person. I don't do it, but I don't appreciate that the game incentivizes me to act like a crazy person.

Edited April 9, 2015 by Matt516

[Stun]

Lets not go overboard with the exaggeration here. The majority of doors/locks that have keys in this game cannot be picked.

 

As for the ones that can, why shouldn't the game reward people who chose to forgo putting their points into stealth, or athletics, or lore, in favor of mechanics, so that they *could* get some bonus XP?

Edited April 9, 2015 by Stun

[PIP-Clownboy]

Lets not go overboard with the exaggeration here. The majority of doors/locks that have keys in this game cannot be picked.

 

As for the ones that can, why shouldn't the game reward people who chose to forgo putting their points into stealth, or athletics, or lore, in favor of mechanics, so that they *could* get some bonus XP?

 

Mechanics is already by far and away the best skill in the game even without free xp. Your reward is the loot you are finding/opening/disarming. 

[AncientToaster]

 

Lets not go overboard with the exaggeration here. The majority of doors/locks that have keys in this game cannot be picked.

 

As for the ones that can, why shouldn't the game reward people who chose to forgo putting their points into stealth, or athletics, or lore, in favor of mechanics, so that they *could* get some bonus XP?

 

Mechanics is already by far and away the best skill in the game even without free xp. Your reward is the loot you are finding/opening/disarming. 

 

 

This.

 

Your reward are the items in the locked chests. Your reward for unlocking that door without finding the key is not having to find the key.

[Daemonjax]

That trap/lockpick xp is plainly an abomination. As mentioned before it just forces on you an optimal course of action for nonsensical reason. It mades more sense in BG2 because there everything was awarding xp, but in PoE it's just complete nonsense you would gain xp for lockpicking doors you could open with a key while you gain nothing for spotting secrets.

 

Yeah, it would obviously be better to award the same experience for overcoming the obstacle, regardless of the details of how it was overcome.  Dunno why that was missed in development.

[sparklecat]

So I played through the game on Hard, finding it too easy and suspecting overlevelling, and have just reached the final boss at level 10.5.  I skipped all bounties and all of the Endless Paths, and left maybe half a dozen accepted quests uncompleted plus whatever else I simply didn't find.

Edited April 9, 2015 by sparklecat

[Mungri]

In order to get the most XP, I need to avoid picking up keys, except for a few doors that cant be picked.

 

I even use lockpics to pick the door in Raedrics before the priest guy gives me a key.

[Stun]

Yeah. If you decide to avoid the few keys in this game that are tied to doors/chests that can be picked, then you'll have "tricked" this 70 hour game into giving you about 2000 extra XP. Congrats.

[Daemonjax]

Hey, just a heads up:

 

If you would like to or have already modded your game to increase the experience required per level, there's an additional edit that needs to be made:

 

07 6F F2 02 00 0A 26 38 0D 00 00 00 02 7B 0C 05 00 04 07 09 6F F3 02 00 0A 12 02 28 F4 02 00 0A 3A B1 FF FF FF DD 0C 00 00 00 08 8C 7F 00 00 1B 6F 1A 00 00 0A DC 2A 00 41 1C 00 00 02 00 00 00 29 00 00 00 59 00 00 00 82 00 00 00 0C 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 32 02 02 17 58 5A 20

F4 01 00 00

5A 2A 00 00 00 32 02 17 59 02 5A 20

F4 01 00 00

5A 2A 00 00 00 13 30 07 00 14 00 00 00 48 00 00 11 02 6F 12 00 00 2B 0A 06 6F 58 07 00 06 03 28 08 00 00 0A 2A 13 30 07 00 27 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 28 04 00 00 0A 39 0C 00 00 00 02 6F 0C 00 00 0A 28 DC 06 00 06 2A 72 B9 1F 00 70 28 42 00 00 0A 72 A1 1F 00 70 2A 00 13 30 0D 00 45 00 00 00

 

Both of the instances of F4 01 00 00 need to be changed (one's for the gui, the other is for the actual game logic).

 

See this thread for more details: http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/76717-how-to-change-experience-per-level-requirement/

[Hassat Hunter]

Yeah, a LOT of us did, since that's how BG2 did it. You know, BG2....the Greatest of the IE games.

Yeah the great game that gave us...

 

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell* 

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

 

DING... level up! Best... XP. System. Ever.

 

Let's not kid ourselves, BG's leveling system had more holes than cheese.

Lets not go overboard with the exaggeration here. The majority of doors/locks that have keys in this game cannot be picked.

 

As for the ones that can, why shouldn't the game reward people who chose to forgo putting their points into stealth, or athletics, or lore, in favor of mechanics, so that they *could* get some bonus XP?

You're simply lying here.

 

As stated, mechanics is already leagues ahead of the others skills without XP (lol). Atlethics only use is less combat-fatigue (though I generally work the 0 athletics to death) making it the second best skill. The rest? *shrug*

So yeah, I had to sacrifice SOooooo much just to get mechanics.

 

Seriously...

[Stun]

Yeah the great game that gave us...

 

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell* 

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

*learn spell*

*forget spell*

I'm sorry, I NEVER did that. Nor did any good player. Of course, I can't speak for any little kiddies who might have snuck into their big brother's room to play BG2. Well...? Did you?

 

And BG2 IS a great Game. By any definition of what a great game is.

 

 

 

Let's not kid ourselves, BG's leveling system had more holes than cheese.

It was about perfect, actually. And it wasn't "BG's Leveling system". It was AD&D's. But again, I can't speak for misconceptions that any of the kiddies might have.

 

 

 

 

Lets not go overboard with the exaggeration here. The majority of doors/locks that have keys in this game cannot be picked.

You're simply lying here.

 

Oh? By all means then. Tell us how many there are.

 

 

As stated, mechanics is already leagues ahead of the others skills without XP (lol). Atlethics only use is less combat-fatigue

On Path of the Damned, that "Only Use" is about as important as breathing is in real life. Considering how low the XP cap is in this game, I'd argue that Athletics is of equal importance as Mechanics. High athletics means you can survive longer in dungeons and out in the wilds without having to trudge back to town to rest or buy camping supplies, while mechanics gives you the hidden stashes. That's about Equal.

 

 

 

Seriously....

Oh man.... I was gonna just blow your post off as silly. But now that you said "Seriously...." That changes everything.

Edited April 11, 2015 by Stun

[PIP-Clownboy]

On Path of the Damned, that "Only Use" is about as important as breathing is in real life. Considering how low the XP cap is in this game, I'd argue that Athletics is of equal importance as Mechanics. High athletics means you can survive longer in dungeons and out in the wilds without having to trudge back to town to rest or buy camping supplies, while mechanics gives you the hidden stashes. That's about Equal.

 

 

Uh, no. You find plenty of camping supplies in most of the maps that allow you to avoid backtracking. 

 

You are also disarming traps, that you can then use. Being able to avoid/place damage will prolong your adventuring day.