WTF is wrong with Obsidian?

[Elerond]

 

4 people in a basement splitting 50k over a 12 year development cycle sounds like the plot of a horror movie.

 

Why can't Obsidian follow this business model?  

 

Actually it was 10 months or so. But still if they actually got paid something during that 10 months that 50k isn't enough.

 

I would say that every gaming company probably dreams that they could do products like Angry Birds and Clash of Clans which are done by very small team in short period of time and bring billions of Euros for the company in next several years when they seek buyer for their company, but as that isn't actually future that I want meaning both how companies work which kind games they produce, I decided to put money that I have earned by doing "traditional" programming to support quite lot of games studios in Kickstarter so that they can do games that they are passionate to do and that belong in genres that seemed somewhat died from your typical game producing channels as they were too expensive be pure indie and they were seen by market not to be worth of effort in seeking new cash magnet.

[Sannom]

Eh, they are just video games.  I play them to have fun, not to generate a laundry list of complaints.  I must not be a real fan.  

Well, one really can't deny that Sensuki and the likes of him dedication went a long way to improve the game, no?

 

I didn't know those 3 could code.

 

Wait, they can't, that's not their area.

I thought Tim Cain was a programmer on top of being a system designer?

[Hassat Hunter]

I think he went a bit overboard trying to make Obsidian fit HIS vision and HIS vision alone (think engagement). It's Obsidian's game afterall, not Sensuki's.

 

And I mourn several things he 'got done' like the removal of limited funds for vendors. Fair to say I probably wouldn't have backed a Sensuki RPG as it wouldn't be for me. Fortunately, we got PoE.

 

 

 

Timothy Cain is an American game producer best known as the producer, lead programmer and one of the main designers of the 1997's computer game Fallout.^[1] In 2009 he was chosen by IGN as one of the top 100 game creators of all time.^[2]

Oops... guess you're right Sannom.

[rjshae]

What's wrong with Obsidian?

 

Nothing. I've enjoyed their work enough to continue buying their games, and to look forward to their next release.

[mrmonocle]

Now I've got to say there is one thing wrong with obsidian. They tend to betray their backers in favor of uninvolved 3rd parties.

[Sannom]

I think he went a bit overboard trying to make Obsidian fit HIS vision and HIS vision alone (think engagement). It's Obsidian's game afterall, not Sensuki's.

 

And I mourn several things he 'got done' like the removal of limited funds for vendors. Fair to say I probably wouldn't have backed a Sensuki RPG as it wouldn't be for me. Fortunately, we got PoE.

Oops... guess you're right Sannom.

Hey, I believe that even if Sensuki went overboard, Obsidian should have been able to filter out the good from the bad. Too much from him and people like him isn't really a problem from my point of view.

 

And yeah, I thought I read something about Tim Cain redesigning/reprogramming the South Park's combat system from real time to turn-based. Maybe in the recent RPG Codex report on one of the PAX?

[rjshae]

And I mourn several things he 'got done' like the removal of limited funds for vendors.

 

Until somebody comes up with a better method, I think that's probably the best approach. After all, what's the alternative? You would need to leave a lot of junk in your stash until you get an opportunity to sell it. But what does that add to the game? Nothing really. It would just be another time-wasting mechanic.

[PIP-Clownboy]

well in all honesty Serpent in Staglands is made by two people

 

and its both arrpeegee and game of the year already lol

 

It's good but Underrail is goty.

[Sannom]

Until somebody comes up with a better method, I think that's probably the best approach. After all, what's the alternative? You would need to leave a lot of junk in your stash until you get an opportunity to sell it. But what does that add to the game? Nothing really. It would just be another time-wasting mechanic.

Speaking for me personnally, I think I would prefer a limited inventory that would force me to filter what I loot at all times. No more hoarding of every single weapon or armor I find.

Edited April 12, 2015 by Sannom

[Hurlshort]

 

Until somebody comes up with a better method, I think that's probably the best approach. After all, what's the alternative? You would need to leave a lot of junk in your stash until you get an opportunity to sell it. But what does that add to the game? Nothing really. It would just be another time-wasting mechanic.

Speaking for me personnally, I think I would prefer a limited inventory that would force me to filter what I loot at all times. No more hoarding of every single weapon or armor I find.

 

 

You could just do that yourself.  I don't bother picking up every xartrip spear and leather armor I find.  I don't feel the need to force others to play my way. 

[Hassat Hunter]

It's not exactly about 'forcing our way' it's more...

 

"Economy in this game is a non-issue since you can buy everything you want, pimp your castle and still have 150K+ to show for it"

[Hurlshort]

But if you stop looting dead bodies, that will probably change the economy of the game quite a bit.  

 

It's not an economic simulator, for sure.  Can't say that troubles me much.

[Labadal]

I've been able to buy most of the stuff I want in the IE games too. If you know what items you need, money will never be an issue.

[Luj1]

 

well in all honesty Serpent in Staglands is made by two people

 

and its both arrpeegee and game of the year already lol

 

It's good but Underrail is goty.

 

both are amazing. also remember legend of grimrock

 

 

This is the age of indie games

 

because people make far better games in modest conditions

Edited April 13, 2015 by Luj1

[Gorth]

 

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it.

if I'm not mistaken, Feargus once went on record saying Obsidian burned through roughly 1 million USD each month. so, 4 million would only fund 4 months of development. everything else had to come out of their own pockets. I imagine this is why they have partnered up with Paradox, they need all the extra money they can get to keep the studio opened

 

You need to get the proper context...

 

That is 1 million dollars a month in operating costs for the company. That's everything added together, most likely including things like the South Park and the Tanks project at the time. The Kickstarter money got earmarked for the PoE project. Paradox didn't "invest" in Obsidian, but offered their distribution channels and help fulfilling backer rewards in return for a small slice of the cake. In Paradox Boss' own words, they didn't make a lot of money from it, it just as much a prestige thing for them (and guesswork from my side, paving the way for more future cooperation).

 

I would be surprised if there ever was more than 20 people working simultaneously on PoE making it a "miniscule" project as such things go.

[Hassat Hunter]

because people make far better games in modest conditions

Yet still you complain against the people that they didn't do AAA+ work.

 

Can't have it both ways now...

[Elerond]

 

 

Wait just a second there. Obsidian raised how much, 4 Million dollars? Up front? And had plenty of time to do it.

if I'm not mistaken, Feargus once went on record saying Obsidian burned through roughly 1 million USD each month. so, 4 million would only fund 4 months of development. everything else had to come out of their own pockets. I imagine this is why they have partnered up with Paradox, they need all the extra money they can get to keep the studio opened

 

You need to get the proper context...

 

That is 1 million dollars a month in operating costs for the company. That's everything added together, most likely including things like the South Park and the Tanks project at the time. The Kickstarter money got earmarked for the PoE project. Paradox didn't "invest" in Obsidian, but offered their distribution channels and help fulfilling backer rewards in return for a small slice of the cake. In Paradox Boss' own words, they didn't make a lot of money from it, it just as much a prestige thing for them (and guesswork from my side, paving the way for more future cooperation).

 

I would be surprised if there ever was more than 20 people working simultaneously on PoE making it a "miniscule" project as such things go.

 

 

From what I gather from posts and interviews that they have made, they run out kickstarter money in sometime of last summer or autumn  which should give you ability make rough estimation how much PoE burned money in average per month. 

 

They collected about $4.1 million during KS, from this about 10% goes to KS and transaction payments leaving them with about $3.7 million, from which they need to pay taxes and backer rewards, lets say that this took them about 20% of their budget with Paradox deal leaving them with about $3 million for the game itself. Which they burned in 20-26 months which would mean that they burned about $115k-$150k per month. PoE's team members salaries are probably in between $50k and $100k per month plus other expenses that employer needs to pay addition to salary per employee, let say this is about 10% additional cost (which are probably bit higher than what those costs really are, but difference in results should be marginal enough that it don't matter). Which would mean that real cost of people probably between $55k and $110k year meaning about $4.5k - $9.2k per month which would mean that average number of man-months (meaning full month worth of work hours by somebodies) put in PoE per month would be somewhere between 12 and 33.

 

NB! All numbers are very rough estimates and they should not be taken as accurate information in anyway or -form but just as rough estimates which they are. 

[Jondalar]

I think worst thing I've come across so far was the fact that you have to subscribe to nexus for over 50bucks just to be able to download the IE modding tool! I need it to fix a game breaking bug. Has anyone else had this same frustration?

[Bryy]

I can download for free from Nexus.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I think he went a bit overboard trying to make Obsidian fit HIS vision and HIS vision alone (think engagement). It's Obsidian's game afterall, not Sensuki's.

 

And I mourn several things he 'got done' like the removal of limited funds for vendors. Fair to say I probably wouldn't have backed a Sensuki RPG as it wouldn't be for me. Fortunately, we got PoE. 

 

No, not his vision and his vision alone. There were a lot of people agreeing with Sensuki on a whole range of issues including engagement. And with the vendor gold, the alternative was to walk out and walk back in the vendors store and reset the gold value, which in effect gave you unlimited gold. What a wonderful system it originally had, especially with the loading times with walking out and walking back in. And if I'm not mistaken, I don't think Sensuki wanted the gold system that's currently in place.

[Guard Dog]

Obsidian's only problem, is that their product attracts know-it-all critics. 

In 1244 counted posts, and an untold number of uncounted ones (most of which were good) this is by far the best zinger you've ever dropped!

[Hassat Hunter]

And with the vendor gold, the alternative was to walk out and walk back in the vendors store and reset the gold value, which in effect gave you unlimited gold. What a wonderful system it originally had, especially with the loading times with walking out and walking back in.

"If it's broken... REMOVE IT (fixing? What the f is fixing?)"

 

I always thought that was the BioWare© Method (see ME2), not Obsidian.

[Sensuki]

I'd like to see you come up with a solution that doesn't suck.

 

The gold limit was there for some other reason/to fit some other mechanic which they removed from the game during production or the alpha or something so all it was doing was making you walk outside and back in again to sell gear.

 

Even if the gold limit prevented you from selling stuff to the same vendor, how exactly is it fun gameplay to have to walk around the world map to different vendors selling your gear?

 

I also did not get vendor gold removed. I posted about it being crap, sure, but someone else posted it somewhere (Something Awful?) and Josh Sawyer replied with that it was supposed to be removed anyway because they changed the system, it just hadn't been removed yet.

 

In the IE games, certain vendors wouldn't buy certain things, but there was no gold limit. They could have done something like that I guess, although PE doesn't have that many shops in areas (usually less than one) so it would just mean extra traveling.

 

As far as "QQ I'm triggered by Sensuki, he made the game worse" goes, most of the stuff that I got changed was quite minor (mostly minor UI stuff). Any major changes had absolutely nothing to do with me other than probably fanning the flames of discussion.

Edited April 20, 2015 by Sensuki

[Hassat Hunter]

I would have dropped the infinite inventory, but having that and no gold limit meant riches far beyond BG2's... castle's upgrade costs where puny, and then they further dropped them in the first patch.

 

You're never meant to pawn off 250k of items to the grocery lady.

"Bad gameplay?"

More like necessary offset for the inventory, now solely lacking. But I've already made a whole thread about this and all...

 

The "fix" would be to not have vendor gold reset on mapload, obviously.

[Sensuki]

I would have dropped the infinite inventory too, but they were absolutely never going to do that unfortunately.

 

When would you reset the vendor gold? All the vendor gold limit does is force you to go to a different store, it doesn't really add anything to the gameplay.

Edited April 21, 2015 by Sensuki