Didn't realize I was paying to join late beta...

[Nortalud]

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

 

One need not excuse major bugs at launch in order to appreciate the masterpiece which a game may have eventually become.

 

From an economic standtpoint, it's more important than ever to avoid declaring a game with major bugs "done", given today's Steam-driven (har har) PC gaming environment. Launching significantly flawed products only reinforces the already-problematic mantra of "wait for the Steam sale".

[Kimuji]

 

 

Lazy troll is lazy

 

(See? I can make stupid, inflammatory posts which add nothing to the conversation too!)

 

And yet I haven't used any Ad Homminem attacks against you, totally contrary to your response. Since there were faster internet connections we have had exactly the same thing everywhere, and yet you come here to actually complain about this in 2015, so what I can only really fathom from this is that you may not have played any game since the 90's.

 

It is kinda like me complaining that I can't run a modern game in MS-DOS.

 

And like I said the 90s RPGs were far from being bug free. I mentionned the Fallout and Baldur's gate series but I could also talk about the Elder Scrolls, the old ones weren't better than Skyrim in that regard. Not by a long shot. It's quite the contrary actually Daggerfall had its share of game killing glichtes and bugs.

[Kimuji]

 

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

 

One need not excuse major bugs at launch in order to appreciate the masterpiece which a game may have eventually become.

 

From an economic standtpoint, it's more important than ever to avoid declaring a game with major bugs "done", given today's Steam-driven (har har) PC gaming environment. Launching significantly flawed products only reinforces the already-problematic mantra of "wait for the Steam sale".

 

So you would have never bought a Baldur's Gate, an Elder Scroll or a Fallout?

[lucid1222]

Maybe none of the beta testers got stuck with a bug that prevented them from progressing, like 99.9% of the playerbase.

For me it wasn't about progressing, I simply won't play the game when it's possible for me to mess my characters up by either accidentaly double clicking or saving a game without removing all my stat gear.  It ruins the playthrough for me so I have shelved the game until it's actually a game.

[Guest BugsVendor]

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

Making a RPG is not like making a platformer or an action game, the level of complexity is of another scale. It is not a coincidence if RPGs in general are usually among the most bug riddled games by the time of their release.

 

First of all just because other games were buggy it doesn't make it OK for this one to release broken.

 

I am not talking about small annoyances nobody minds. I am talking about such core functionality like: EQUIPPING ITEMS, SAVE / LOAD.

 

RPG's are not special. Think about GTA 5. It worked on release didn't it ? Yet it was far more complex. 

 

But that's a side issue. If you knew nothing about game development or programming this still should not even be your problem. You see a product on a shop shelf. You expect it to work.

 

And please also note that it has nothing to do with my opinion of the actual experience which I like! It has everything to do with offensive release policy.

[Amentep]

It has nothing to do with conspiracy and everything to do with popular business model today "cash first work later".

At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see adding an extra month to the release would allow them to suddenly find bugs that weren't found in the backer beta or internal Q&A. YMMV.

[Kimuji]

@BugsVendor:

 

Well you can fight against the whole game industry in that case. Yes theoretically games should be 100% functional out of the box, but that's the ideal world. And no GTA V is not that complex. It doesn't have to juggle with char stats, item stats, complicated combat formulas, quest interweaving etc...

Edited April 3, 2015 by Kimuji

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

It has nothing to do with conspiracy and everything to do with popular business model today "cash first work later".

At this point, we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see adding an extra month to the release would allow them to suddenly find bugs that weren't found in the backer beta or internal Q&A. YMMV.

 

 

I don't how much time they would need but how is that my concern? By releasing a game they announce that it is in a working state. It is not.

 

It's their business who they hire, how they manage and how much resources they put into testing. They clearly failed.

 

And again I expected a few bugs here and there, but this is beyond a reasonable amount. In it's current state it is simply broken.

 

I paid for a game and:

 

a) cant go to the Raedic's Hold - ok i guess not such a biggie

 

b) cant load the game in many locations or I will get free stats

 

c) my inventory can dissapear

 

d) if I forget and double click on an item and find out about it 2 hours later I have to load back.

 

it goes on and on...

[Nortalud]

 

 

Lazy troll is lazy

 

(See? I can make stupid, inflammatory posts which add nothing to the conversation too!)

 

And yet I haven't used any Ad Homminem attacks against you, totally contrary to your response. 

 

 

If we're going to play the fallacy game, then you're right, you didn't use an ad hominem attack. You used a tu quoque fallacy to deflect my criticisms of PoE, and then you argument from fallacy in response to my criticism of your post.

 

Since there were faster internet connections we have had exactly the same thing everywhere

 

 

Retrospective determinism (and just plain not true)

 

 

and yet you come here to actually complain about this in 2015, so what I can only really fathom from this is that you may not have played any game since the 90's.

 

 

Hasty generalization

 

It is kinda like me complaining that I can't run a modern game in MS-DOS.

 

 

False analogy

 

 

 

There now, wasn't that productive?

 

There now, wasn't that productive

 

Appeal to ridicule

[Elerond]

 

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

Making a RPG is not like making a platformer or an action game, the level of complexity is of another scale. It is not a coincidence if RPGs in general are usually among the most bug riddled games by the time of their release.

 

First of all just because other games were buggy it doesn't make it OK for this one to release broken.

 

I am not talking about small annoyances nobody minds. I am talking about such core functionality like: EQUIPPING ITEMS, SAVE / LOAD.

 

RPG's are not special. Think about GTA 5. It worked on release didn't it ? Yet it was far more complex. 

 

But that's a side issue. If you knew nothing about game development or programming this still should not even be your problem. You see a product on a shop shelf. You expect it to work.

 

And please also note that it has nothing to do with my opinion of the actual experience which I like! It has everything to do with offensive release policy.

 

 

GTA 5 was full of bugs when it was released.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exhMLCeP9Pc

 

See like example how their cut scenes didn't even work properly, and that was one most expensive games in history to make

[TMZuk]

I'm forced reply to this.

 

First of all, so far, after more than thirty hours, I have encountered ONE crash and no bugs of any consequence.

 

Secondly, I played BG back in the day. Do you realize how many patches Bioware had to release for that game? Or for BG2? Or NWN? A truckload!

 

It's getting tiresome reading posts like these. A game with so much content as this one is BOUND to have bugs. You want a bug free game? Don't play it from day one.

Edited April 3, 2015 by TMZuk

[Guest BugsVendor]

@BugsVendor:

 

Well you can fight against the whole game industry in that case. Yes theoretically games should be 100% functional out of the box, but that's the ideal world. And no GTA V is not that complex. It doesn't have to juggle with char stats, item stats, complicated combat formulas, quest interweaving etc...

 

 

A lot of games are a little big bugged and I think many people agree it is acceptable.

 

All I am trying to get across is that Obsidian released not bugged but a broken game.

 

And it's wrong that's all.

 

Side issue:

 

If you are a casual player that played the game on normal or even easy you are not impacted by these bugs.

 

You almost never load because you don't die in clashes. You will not notice missing or abnormal stats because you don't care anyway so you don't even check character stats in details. You don't need it becouse you just fly through the game regardless of stats. This explains why there are so many good reviews and people don't understand what is the whole fuss about.

 

Problem begins on hard or path of the damned when every detail is important.

[Nortalud]

 

 

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

 

One need not excuse major bugs at launch in order to appreciate the masterpiece which a game may have eventually become.

 

From an economic standtpoint, it's more important than ever to avoid declaring a game with major bugs "done", given today's Steam-driven (har har) PC gaming environment. Launching significantly flawed products only reinforces the already-problematic mantra of "wait for the Steam sale".

 

So you would have never bought a Baldur's Gate, an Elder Scroll or a Fallout?

 

 

Had I some way to know that the games were seriously flawed at the time of their launch but would likely be fixed at some indefinite point in the future, then I would delay my purchase until that time arrived (usually after they've gone on sale).

 

Had I some way to know that the games were seriously flawed at the time of their launch and likely would not be fixed, then I would attempt to research the nature of the flaws and, if I thought them to be severe enough, not purchase the game at all.

[Bollockoff]

It's not significantly flawed. You're just being pathetically dramatic.

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

 

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

Making a RPG is not like making a platformer or an action game, the level of complexity is of another scale. It is not a coincidence if RPGs in general are usually among the most bug riddled games by the time of their release.

 

First of all just because other games were buggy it doesn't make it OK for this one to release broken.

 

I am not talking about small annoyances nobody minds. I am talking about such core functionality like: EQUIPPING ITEMS, SAVE / LOAD.

 

RPG's are not special. Think about GTA 5. It worked on release didn't it ? Yet it was far more complex. 

 

But that's a side issue. If you knew nothing about game development or programming this still should not even be your problem. You see a product on a shop shelf. You expect it to work.

 

And please also note that it has nothing to do with my opinion of the actual experience which I like! It has everything to do with offensive release policy.

 

 

GTA 5 was full of bugs when it was released.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exhMLCeP9Pc

 

See like example how their cut scenes didn't even work properly, and that was one most expensive games in history to make

 

 

Is this game breaking ? No. You are missing the point.

[Amentep]

I don't how much time they would need but how is that my concern?

It is your concern because your posts seem to indicate you think that if they spent more time with the product that there would be less bugs.

 

My argument is that they didn't find the bugs in 8 months of Beta Testing. Of however long of internal Q&A. Another month, another two months was not going to get them to find problems they hadn't already found.

 

 

By releasing a game they announce that it is in a working state. It is not.

Sure its in a working state. I've been playing it for a week with no problem.

 

Does it work *flawlessly*? Well for me it has so far. For other clearly not. But that's a different thing from not working entirely.

[Schakar]

 

 

Those are just the engines. They do not include actual gameplay or other assets.

 

And hey, since you can just download most of the code, I guess everyone can make huge video games now. After all, it was invented 35+ years ago. Gonna go download the code for Super Mario RPG now and use it to code a AAA rpg and release it on steam, it'll be easy!

So enlight us. WHAT is the difference between the core game code from today and a MUD code from 1975 if you take away the graphic?

It's some movement and animation code and the graphic engine ... which is not involved into something like the "save game crash bug" or "stats bug".

 

The entire coding language for one. And it is not "just some movement and animation and graphics" - where the hell do you think the gameplay comes from? If it was just that, all games would be walking simulators with nice graphics. But if you actually think you can use the code of a 70's MUD to make a AAA game, go ahead and try. Especially if you're talking about Colossal Cave Adventure, which is an incredibly simple game, even for a text adventure. I would say that even the most simple text adventures released on online indie stores are more complex than that game was. I seriously would love to see you use the code for a text prompt game to make a modern graphics-based game. Seriously. I am actually so flabbergasted at your statement that I feel like I'm being troll baited but whatever.

 

The code language has nothing to do with the complexity! It's unimportant if you talk English, Dansk, Rusian if the content is the same. It's just a question from where you are or what you prefare.

And as you read in the wiki (you did it right?): BCPL is the base of B which is the base of C which is the base of C++ / C# / Java and a dozens more modern programing languages. So not even this is "new".

 

The CORE is still the damn same.

Calculate attackers stats against defenders stats for every turn, move entitys from point A to point B, open chest/box/doors what ever. Load and Save games. This is the CORE!

Even if you take 20 attack values (dex, might, weapon stats, what ever) v 20 defender stats (armor, reflex, DR, what ever). It is not realy different from the first muds.

 

The rest ist CONTENT (Long storys, big dungeons, lots of items) and INTERFACE (HUD, graphics, audio ... and most complex part today (the graphics, sound is easy ).

 

The CONTENT + INTERFACE is what makes the difference of a AAA and B- title today.

 

And now to the game breaking BUGs:

- broken save games which don't let you move anymore (I couldn't get out of Rodric's Hold for example and had to mod my save game external)

- disapearing important items (the key for the last room in Rodric's Hold disapeared for me, had to use the console (cheat))

 

This are CORE and "game breaking" BUGs as I had no changs to advance without manipulation ... and the mechanic behind is in no way "NEW". Save/Load entitys from savegame/database. STONE AGE OF CODEING!!! Very same routins used for Pictures in Photoshop or Excel and no super duper hyper magic as you belive .

Edited April 3, 2015 by Schakar

[Elerond]

Is this game breaking ? No. You are missing the point.

As game breaking than any bugs in PoE.

 

Here is full list of bugs in GTA games if you are so sure that they didn't have any

http://gta.wikia.com/Glitches

 

EDIT: Interesting fact, with GTA V budget you could make 100 PoEs.

Edited April 3, 2015 by Elerond

[Kimuji]

 

@BugsVendor:

 

Well you can fight against the whole game industry in that case. Yes theoretically games should be 100% functional out of the box, but that's the ideal world. And no GTA V is not that complex. It doesn't have to juggle with char stats, item stats, complicated combat formulas, quest interweaving etc...

 

 

A lot of games are a little big bugged and I think many people agree it is acceptable.

 

All I am trying to get across is that Obsidian released not bugged but a broken game.

 

And it's wrong that's all.

 

Side issue:

 

If you are a casual player that played the game on normal or even easy you are not impacted by these bugs.

 

You almost never load because you don't die in clashes. You will not notice missing or abnormal stats because you don't care anyway so you don't even check character stats in details. You don't need it becouse you just fly through the game regardless of stats. This explains why there are so many good reviews and people don't understand what is the whole fuss about.

 

Problem begins on hard or path of the damned when every detail is important.

 

Given how many people aready beat the game I wouldn't call it broken, that's an utter exaggeration. And the fixes are coming today (or tomorrow), ie only a week after the release. I can think of quite a number of AAA games that get trully fixed only after a month or two.

 

And what is the last part supposed to mean? If you are the experienced gamer you claim to be then you should know what to expect and be a little more patient. And if the more casual gamers are not bothered with the glitches I'd say it is good news, because they are supposed to be the ones to ditch games and jump to another on the first occasion...

[Fighter]

Games these days come out technically flawed and buggy. Especially on PC. You should know this by now. And if not prepared for that then do not buy on launch.

[Guest BugsVendor]

 

I don't how much time they would need but how is that my concern?

It is your concern because your posts seem to indicate you think that if they spent more time with the product that there would be less bugs.

 

My argument is that they didn't find the bugs in 8 months of Beta Testing. Of however long of internal Q&A. Another month, another two months was not going to get them to find problems they hadn't already found.

 

 

By releasing a game they announce that it is in a working state. It is not.

Sure its in a working state. I've been playing it for a week with no problem.

 

Does it work *flawlessly*? Well for me it has so far. For other clearly not. But that's a different thing from not working entirely.

 

 

Again dear Sir you come back into explaining in details successfulness of their testing procedures and I say again it is not my concern. They are a company. It is their business how the go about it. There is an infinite number of possibilities. What I expect as a costumer is the end product to be in reasonably good state. It is not. Core functionalities of an rpg are broken.

 

As to your second comment everyone experience stats problems unless they never loaded their game in gilded vale or other companion locations. You would have to be very lucky to do that. Not to mention double click on an item. There is a lot more like rangers being completely broken.

 

I just see no reason to defend selling a broken product.

Edited April 3, 2015 by BugsVendor

[Rubarack]

 

I think people forgot how bugged were some of the most legendary RPGs (or they didn't buy them when they came out before all the patches, mods, unofficial fixes etc.). The Baldur's Gate were not spared, Arcanum wasn't, the Fallout... ah yes Fallout 2 had quite a handful of game breaking bugs and it took more than a few weeks to ge rid of the most nasty ones (and some were never officially fixed). All these games are now considered as absolute classics but believe me they had bugs, tons of them.

 

Making a RPG is not like making a platformer or an action game, the level of complexity is of another scale. It is not a coincidence if RPGs in general are usually among the most bug riddled games by the time of their release.

 

 

First of all just because other games were buggy it doesn't make it OK for this one to release broken.

 

I am not talking about small annoyances nobody minds. I am talking about such core functionality like: EQUIPPING ITEMS, SAVE / LOAD.

 

RPG's are not special. Think about GTA 5. It worked on release didn't it ? Yet it was far more complex. 

 

But that's a side issue. If you knew nothing about game development or programming this still should not even be your problem. You see a product on a shop shelf. You expect it to work.

 

And please also note that it has nothing to do with my opinion of the actual experience which I like! It has everything to do with offensive release policy.

There's certainly an element where your expectations need to be tempered by realism, RPGs are always slightly broken at launch and if you have a problem with that you have a problem with the genre not with Pillars specifically. GTA is more of an exception than a rule for games of this scope. If you're believe that games in general should be better polished then that's a reasonable argument (though the realities of software development mean that asking for bug free software is like asking for all the beans in a can to be exactly the same size and shape, without using gm) but that's a question that really should be raised on a general forum.

 

Specifically though Pillars of Eternity has problems beyond normal bugs. The save system is wholly broken. The inventory system is wholly broken. Without these systems the combat in the game just doesn't function. Maybe Obsidian overstretched themselves and just didn't have the budget to finish the game, releasing a broken product and fixing it later is better than not releasing. They should have learned from their previous mistakes though, and this puts their previous excuses over buggy releases in a bad light. But they'll only learn from this one if they're called out on it.

 

As for my lesson, don't get Obsidian games till the GotY. When they're publishe they're bad, but when they self-fund they're even worse.

[Schakar]

Games these days come out technically flawed and buggy. Especially on PC. You should know this by now. And if not prepared for that then do not buy on launch.

Oh we all know this .

 

But do we have to except it without saying a word? NO!

It's a rude and bad behavior of the Publishers to take it as "fact" or "state of the art" to release BUGed/Unfinished products. And yes, it's in most cases the fault of the Publishers (I worked for a small game company which produced for Ubisoft ... man this guys from Ubisoft had been real mofus!!! We told them, we need 6 more month for Q&A but they gave a sh.. and forced us to release software with BUGs we knew very well . The point where I decided to leave this industry.)

 

And my point is simple: I DO NOT LIKE/EXCEPT THIS BEHAVIOR!!!

And if it happens, I take the freedom to express my BIG DISLIKE!

 

If I pay with real money I expect an intact, working and complet product. NO alpha/beta/half done something!

Edited April 3, 2015 by Schakar

[Amentep]

Again dear Sir you come back into explaining in details successfulness of their testing procedures and I say again it is not my concern. They are a company. It is their business how the go about it. There is an infinite number of possibilities. What I expect as a costumer is the end product to be in reasonably good state. It is not. Core functionalities of an rpg are broken.

 

And again my fine fellow, I say that the core functionality isn't broken, people have beat the game without the issues you've experienced and your seeming wish for a bug free game would never be achieved unless Obsidian never released the game.  No amount of additional time with the product would cure what ills you now with respect to your game experience.

 

As to your second comment everyone experience stats problems unless they never loaded their game in gilded vale or other companion locations. You would have to be very lucky to do that.

 

Then I am, indeed, a very lucky individual.

 

So far.

 

Not to mention double click on an item.

 

I dragged and dropped items. Lucky me.

 

I just see no reason to defend selling a broken product.

 

I see no reason to call a product that isn't broken broken.

 

Clearly your experience has been suboptimal and I completely support your ability to bring this issue to the attention of Obsidian. But a game that people have been able to beat, a game that people have been able to complete without a showstopping bug isn't broken (which is, I suppose, the entire gist of my point).

[termokanden]

Call me an Obsidian fanboy if you will, but it seems to me that I can either support one of the few remaining developers who will make this type of game and do it well, or give up because of bugs that are fixed one week after release. Bugs and all, I've already enjoyed this game immensely for 30 hours.

 

I don't even disagree that some of these bugs are game-breaking, I'm just glad they're likely fixed tomorrow.

 

What is most important to me is that the issues get fixed so we have the modern classic that this game could very easily be.

 

Edit: Patch is out now? Must... play... MORE.

Edited April 3, 2015 by termokanden