Controversial Limerick Discussion

[Creslin321]

It is reaction of disgust and despair when identity that don't match persons exceptions is revealed that hits home, as it is reaction that most transgender people are familiar with and reaction that they have grown to fear and even sometimes expect. It is often root cause that drives transgender people to isolation and even suicide.

 

It is not necessary simple thing to comprehend when one had not had to live with such fear but I see why one who has can find that memorial offensive.

 

Offensive things in art work isn't necessary bad thing, but if they are things that artist didn't intent to their work to express then there is cause for editing, even if some of audience of their work liked that particular thing, because artist has always right to modify things in their work that they view as flaws or they just don't like, if they do feel to do so.  

 

People expressing their likes and dislikes about particular piece of art is also not bad, even when they demand changes in that piece, because it will give artist and other people alternative perspective of things. But also people that express their opinions against those likes and dislikes have right to do so, as that also gives alternative perspectives and people have also right to agree and disagree with these opinions. But at end it is artist whose views of their work is that matters and if they decide to change their work after they have gained new perspective then that change is OK, even if people disagree with it, but if change is forced by some entity like for example government then that change is not OK and should be objected by people that support freedom of expression. 

 

I think you present some valid points on how a trans person may genuinely be upset at this joke.  And I actually empathize with them to a degree, and I think that their feelings are definitely genuine.

 

That said, here is the other side of the coin...

 

Imagine that you are a person that knows, not believes, KNOWS that God is real and that he has given humanity his law.  And if you live by his law, then you will live on in paradise for eternity after you die.  But if you break his laws, then your soul will be damned to eternal torment.

 

You know this, yet every day you see people breaking God's law and, even worse, insulting his holy prophet.  Nothing in the world could upset you more, not only are these people evil by nature, but they constantly publish their heathen blasphemies in popular media that your children love to watch.  What if they influence your children?  We are talking about not only your children's lives here, but their very souls.  Clearly, this must be stopped, these people should not be able to publish anything that could corrupt the minds and souls of our children.

 

----------------

 

That said...

 

I stand firmly against censoring art on the grounds of religious morality.  I do this knowing that the art in question extremely offends religious people.

 

How can I stand against censoring art on religious grounds, but stand for censoring art because it offends someone and not be a hypocrite?

[PermTrouble]

No, I think the fundamental disagreement is that you think trans people are actually the gender they were assigned at birth (or at least subpar versions of their preferred gender) and thus have a responsibility to tell people all about their history, while I think that someone's past medical treatments are a private matter I don't need to know about if they don't want to tell me.

Actually I believe trans is humanities third gender.  I don't believe this opinion dehumanizes trans persons, nor means I have any hatred towards them, it simply means I think they are different.  It is because of this difference that I believe it is deceitful for one such person to not disclose (in this instance) that they weren't born female.

 

I believe if a person wholeheartedly believes they were born with the wrong genitals, then they have every right (and I applaud their decision) to transition towards what makes them happy and healthy.  It just also means I may disagree with what their new gender is.

[sparklecat]

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

[Mungri]

They drop nice loots like the robe in my avatar. So kill them all and loot.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

I mean, heaven forbid that, say, people who are intolerant of transgendered folks are told to shut up and keep their ugly beliefs to themselves.

 

What intolerance?  Again I will state it.  Believing that MtF transexuals are still men is not intolerant, bigoted, hateful, or discriminatory.

 

 

Just because you say it's so doesn't make it true, darkpatriot. It's not for you to tell other people who and what they are. That's something that every person must decide for themselves. Taking away other people's right to their own identity, even if it's only in your own mind, is a form of discrimination.

Edited April 1, 2015 by TheUsernamelessOne

[Lord Wafflebum]

They drop nice loots like the robe in my avatar. So kill them all and loot.

Unfortunately IIRC it isn't a backer NPC that's the problem, I believe it's one of the gravestones on the third level of Od Nua? I could be wrong where it is. Nope, murder can't solve this problem...

[sparklecat]

 

No, I think the fundamental disagreement is that you think trans people are actually the gender they were assigned at birth (or at least subpar versions of their preferred gender) and thus have a responsibility to tell people all about their history, while I think that someone's past medical treatments are a private matter I don't need to know about if they don't want to tell me.

Actually I believe trans is humanities third gender.  I don't believe this opinion dehumanizes trans persons, nor means I have any hatred towards them, it simply means I think they are different.  It is because of this difference that I believe it is deceitful for one such person to not disclose (in this instance) that they weren't born female.

 

I believe if a person wholeheartedly believes they were born with the wrong genitals, then they have every right (and I applaud their decision) to transition towards what makes them happy and healthy.  It just also means I may disagree with what their new gender is.

 

Fine.  The point being, the fundamental difference between us is that you don't accept them as their stated gender and I do.

[Nixl]

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

I am not sure that I understand the distinction between commercial and artistic vision, since both are in view of the player.  In fact, one needs to go out of his or her way to find the message.

[Valsuelm]

Given that enough people have an issue with a romantic relationship with a bigot, it seems to me like it's doubly the responsibility of the person who doesn't want to sleep with trans people they're otherwise attracted to make that clear in advance to all their prospective partners.  After all, I can't properly give consent if you don't tell me up front, unprompted, that you wouldn't sleep with someone who told you they were trans.

 

You can stop trolling anytime.

 

You're essentially saying that someone who orders a hamburger in a restaurant needs to tell the waiter ahead of time that they don't want deermeat in place of the beef, cow dung mixed in with it, or anything else other than what a hamburger is, and not the waiter's job to inform the customer that what's listed on the menu isn't exactly what one will get when one sinks their teeth into their order.

 

If you're not trolling and you actually believe that, you're a bit messed in the head, as well as fundamentally dishonest.

 

While I'm sure it's the dream of the some of the gender confused that everyone else be gender confused, that is not the case for most people, fortunately for the human race.

 

Trying to imply the dishonest person is in the right over the duped person is evil.

 

That said, the arguments presented for censoring the headstone are complete nonsense as there's nothing definitive in the limerick even says there was a transanything in that bed, or even that anyone lied, it's really quite ambiguous.

 

It does not bode well for our society and culture that such nonsense is given an ear.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Valsuelm

[PermTrouble]

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

Seeing as how kickstarter was essential to the game even being created, in this case I do think such a thing holds merit as part of its artistic vision.

 

I should probably also note that I think the limerick is stupid.  I just think it has every right to exist in the game as is.

[darkpatriot]

 

I mean, heaven forbid that, say, people who are intolerant of transgendered folks are told to shut up and keep their ugly beliefs to themselves.

 

What intolerance?  Again I will state it.  Believing that MtF transexuals are still men is not intolerant, bigoted, hateful, or discriminatory.

 

 

Just because you say it's so doesn't make it true, darkpatriot. It's not for you to tell other people who and what they are. That's something that every person must decide for themselves. Taking away other people's right to their own identity, even if it's only in your own mind, is a form of discrimination.

 

I agree that just because I say something doesn't make it true.  It only makes it my opinion.  That is kind of what I'm arguing though. That peoples opinions need to be respected without resorting to ad hominems like "bigoted".  If you are gonna throw around insults like that, which is generally counterproductive to having a conversation anyway, you need to back it up with some solid reasoning for why it is an accurate description.  Without that reasoning, which would be the actual core of the discussion, it is just an ad hominem.

 

How is someone else's right to how they self-identify being taken away?  You really can't stop a person from identifying however they want to even if you tried.  Not without some pretty extreme coercive measures that I think most of the world would disagree with anyway.  There is no right to have everyone agree with them though.  You never have a right to decide someone else's opinions and beliefs.

Edited April 1, 2015 by darkpatriot

[sparklecat]

 

Given that enough people have an issue with a romantic relationship with a bigot, it seems to me like it's doubly the responsibility of the person who doesn't want to sleep with trans people they're otherwise attracted to make that clear in advance to all their prospective partners.  After all, I can't properly give consent if you don't tell me up front, unprompted, that you wouldn't sleep with someone who told you they were trans.

 

You can stop trolling anytime.

 

You're essentially saying that someone who orders a hamburger in a restaurant needs to tell the waiter ahead of time that they don't want deermeat in place of the beef, cow dung mixed in with it, or anything else other than what a hamburger is, and not the waiter's job to inform the customer that what's listed on the menu isn't exactly what one will get when one sinks their teeth into their order.

 

If you're not trolling and you actually believe that, you're a bit messed in the head, as well as fundamentally dishonest.

 

While I'm sure it's the dream of the some of the gender confused that everyone else be gender confused, that is not the case for most people, fortunately for the human race.

 

Trying to imply the dishonest person is in the right over the duped person is evil.

 

That said, the arguments presented for censoring the headstone are complete nonsense as there's nothing definitive in the limerick even says there was a transanything in that bed, or even that anyone lied, it's really quite ambiguous.

 

It does not bode well for our society and culture that such nonsense is given an ear.

 

And you can piss off.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

Fixed.

 

EDIT: No, not fixed. Ahh, my lame internet joke is ruined!

Edited April 1, 2015 by TheUsernamelessOne

[Mungri]

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

[sparklecat]

 

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

I am not sure that I understand the distinction between commercial and artistic vision, since both are in view of the player.  In fact, one needs to go out of his or her way to find the message.

 

Mostly I'm just saying that acting like we're mangling some precious work of art by taking out a backer message and comparing it to the Charlie Hebdo situation is really pushing it. 

[Route1]

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

[Lord Wafflebum]

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

Probably should be censored.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

I mean, heaven forbid that, say, people who are intolerant of transgendered folks are told to shut up and keep their ugly beliefs to themselves.

 

What intolerance?  Again I will state it.  Believing that MtF transexuals are still men is not intolerant, bigoted, hateful, or discriminatory.

 

 

Just because you say it's so doesn't make it true, darkpatriot. It's not for you to tell other people who and what they are. That's something that every person must decide for themselves. Taking away other people's right to their own identity, even if it's only in your own mind, is a form of discrimination.

 

I agree that just because I say something doesn't make it true.  It only makes it my opinion.  That is kind of what I'm arguing though. That peoples opinions need to be respected without resorting to ad hominems like "bigoted".  If you are gonna throw around insults like that, which is generally counterproductive to having a conversation anyway, you need to back them up with some solid reasoning for why it is an accurate description.

 

How is someone else's right to how they self-identify being taken away?  You really can't stop a person from identifying however they want to even if you tried.  Not without some pretty extreme coercive measures that I think most of the world would disagree with.  There is no right to have everyone agree with them though.  You don't have a right to decide someone else's opinions and beliefs.

 

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

[PermTrouble]

 

 

No, I think the fundamental disagreement is that you think trans people are actually the gender they were assigned at birth (or at least subpar versions of their preferred gender) and thus have a responsibility to tell people all about their history, while I think that someone's past medical treatments are a private matter I don't need to know about if they don't want to tell me.

Actually I believe trans is humanities third gender.  I don't believe this opinion dehumanizes trans persons, nor means I have any hatred towards them, it simply means I think they are different.  It is because of this difference that I believe it is deceitful for one such person to not disclose (in this instance) that they weren't born female.

 

I believe if a person wholeheartedly believes they were born with the wrong genitals, then they have every right (and I applaud their decision) to transition towards what makes them happy and healthy.  It just also means I may disagree with what their new gender is.

 

Fine.  The point being, the fundamental difference between us is that you don't accept them as their stated gender and I do.

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

[TheUsernamelessOne]

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

 

So what's the threshold a minority has to reach before they become relevant to you? .1% of the population? 1%? 51%?

[sparklecat]

 

 

Well, you've demonstrated that you don't respect others' beliefs or opinions, so I'm not going to respect yours.

 

Not that I was going to anyway, because I don't actually respect anyone's opinion save my own. On that idea we just disagree completely.

 

I knew I liked you.

[Lord Wafflebum]

 

 

 

No, I think the fundamental disagreement is that you think trans people are actually the gender they were assigned at birth (or at least subpar versions of their preferred gender) and thus have a responsibility to tell people all about their history, while I think that someone's past medical treatments are a private matter I don't need to know about if they don't want to tell me.

Actually I believe trans is humanities third gender.  I don't believe this opinion dehumanizes trans persons, nor means I have any hatred towards them, it simply means I think they are different.  It is because of this difference that I believe it is deceitful for one such person to not disclose (in this instance) that they weren't born female.

 

I believe if a person wholeheartedly believes they were born with the wrong genitals, then they have every right (and I applaud their decision) to transition towards what makes them happy and healthy.  It just also means I may disagree with what their new gender is.

 

Fine.  The point being, the fundamental difference between us is that you don't accept them as their stated gender and I do.

 

And because our hard lined stances on that matter, I am going to go ahead and remove myself from the thread instead of talking around in circles.

 

Good chat though, have a good day <3

 

Quitter

[Creslin321]

Oh I found a gravestone called N-Space. Looked completely out of character so I clicked on it. 'Proud supporters of Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity'.

 

N-space is inherently racist, and I demand that it be censored as it refers to slave housing in antebellum America.

[Route1]

 

Are we seriously talking about trans people? Guys, go outside or something. They're like .05% of the population. 

 

So what's the threshold a minority has to reach before they become relevant to you? .1% of the population? 1%? 51%?

 

Who knows but they hardly exist so I don't know why we're dedicating this much conversation towards this issue. Just play the game and not worry about being able to romance a fictional character in a videogame. 

[Nixl]

 

 

I would like at this point to note again that the message in question is not a part of Obsidian's artistic vision for their product; it is a backer message put in because the person in question paid for it.  We're talking about a commercial, not an installation in a modern art museum.

I am not sure that I understand the distinction between commercial and artistic vision, since both are in view of the player.  In fact, one needs to go out of his or her way to find the message.

 

Mostly I'm just saying that acting like we're mangling some precious work of art by taking out a backer message and comparing it to the Charlie Hebdo situation is really pushing it. 

 

I would argue the debate does not depend on whether the work is precious or not, but rather the act of removing/censoring a message.  The act of censorship is not good in any instance.