Pillars of Metagaming

[Katarack21]

Is that the same guys that attack you, fail, and then actually load a save game?

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

I take it people who have always had a problem with these similar 'sucker punches' from the IE games, that's been brought up time and again over the last two years of development on these forums and didn't want to see them in PoE, now like them in PoE since the game has been released, have changed their minds and also like these similar 'sucker punches' in the IE games?

 

If that was for me, no, I don't like the sucker punches in BG2. Except by now I know where everything is so I don't get sucker punched anymore. 

 

Going out of my way to look for trouble and then getting my face pushed in is completely different than being actively approach by an NPC with a quest, accepting it, and finding that it's way out of your level. I never had a beef with the difficulty of BG2 quests, only with the way in which the game pushes them on you.

 

I still contend it would have been a far better game had the Chapter 2 content been spread out differently.

 

 

Oh, so when asking the NPC by the bridge about the surrounding area and him saying his friend might be still alive in a cave, you're not going to check it out and try to save his friend? You're going to ignore this, take some time to go and find some companions and then go back to this area to take on this unknown threat? Funny how sucker punches in PoE are okay but in the IE games, they're not.

[Hellraiser789]

Is that the same guys that attack you, fail, and then actually load a save game?

 

Yeah! Those guys were the best! They got completely destroyed and then they ""reloaded" and were like "lets try this again - can we join you? No? Is there anything you need from us? Please, let us prove our worth by doing a menial fetch quest!" Not those exact words, but still. And then they returned with the pantaloons?  Funny how I still remember that.... That was great. I was laughing so hard throughout the whole thing. and the floating eyeballs were a nice touch too. 

[DocDoomII]

 

Is that the same guys that attack you, fail, and then actually load a save game?

 

Yeah! Those guys were the best! They got completely destroyed and then they ""reloaded" and were like "lets try this again - can we join you? No? Is there anything you need from us? Please, let us prove our worth by doing a menial fetch quest!" Not those exact words, but still. And then they returned with the pantaloons?  Funny how I still remember that.... That was great. I was laughing so hard throughout the whole thing. and the floating eyeballs were a nice touch too. 

 

I remember that, it was hysterical xD

[Katarack21]

 

Is that the same guys that attack you, fail, and then actually load a save game?

 

Yeah! Those guys were the best! They got completely destroyed and then they ""reloaded" and were like "lets try this again - can we join you? No? Is there anything you need from us? Please, let us prove our worth by doing a menial fetch quest!" Not those exact words, but still. And then they returned with the pantaloons?  Funny how I still remember that.... That was great. I was laughing so hard throughout the whole thing. and the floating eyeballs were a nice touch too. 

 

One of my favorite non-major characters in the entire series. I am also a very big fan of Biff the Understudy.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Katarack21

[Varana]

Oh, so when asking the NPC by the bridge about the surrounding area and him saying his friend might be still alive in a cave, you're not going to check it out and try to save his friend? You're going to ignore this, take some time to go and find some companions and then go back to this area to take on this unknown threat? Funny how sucker punches in PoE are okay but in the IE games, they're not.

They are.

One of my most lasting impressions in BG2 was opening a certain door in the bridge district and stumbling into one of the elemental liches' lair, kind of right after the start. It was basically a spectacular light show of high level spells killing the entire party in seconds - after which I decided to come back later.

 

Getting clobbered by something too hard for your current level and returning after a few levels or with some back-up is one of the basic concepts of such a game, I thought. There's this notion of a "gateway battle": a fight vaguely representative of what to expect in the area behind it, to tell the player what to expect and when to tackle this area.

In this case, a bear, several Xaurips and a team of bandits demonstrate quite nicely that it may be a good idea to stick to the road early on and plan your advances into the wilderness carefully.

The guy says that his companion got killed by the bear. You can even take a look and confirm that without fighting if you sneak into the lair. I don't know where I should get the idea that my character would fare better, except from some metagame-y deliberation that this is a quest; the guy didn't do it himself because he's not the hero; it's there to be solved by the PC; therefore, let's do it.

[PrimeJunta]

Oh, so when asking the NPC by the bridge about the surrounding area and him saying his friend might be still alive in a cave, you're not going to check it out and try to save his friend? You're going to ignore this, take some time to go and find some companions and then go back to this area to take on this unknown threat? Funny how sucker punches in PoE are okay but in the IE games, they're not.

 

Funny, I don't remember him saying his friend might still be alive. I remember him saying quite distinctly that his friend got killed by the bear.

[Katarack21]

 

Oh, so when asking the NPC by the bridge about the surrounding area and him saying his friend might be still alive in a cave, you're not going to check it out and try to save his friend? You're going to ignore this, take some time to go and find some companions and then go back to this area to take on this unknown threat? Funny how sucker punches in PoE are okay but in the IE games, they're not.

 

Funny, I don't remember him saying his friend might still be alive. I remember him saying quite distinctly that his friend got killed by the bear.

 

I thought it was pretty clear that the dude was dead and this guy was running with the wife ahead of suspicion...thought that before I ever left the house.

[Zwiebelchen]

I take it people who have always had a problem with these similar 'sucker punches' from the IE games, that's been brought up time and again over the last two years of development on these forums and didn't want to see them in PoE, now like them in PoE since the game has been released, have changed their minds and also like these similar 'sucker punches' in the IE games?

 

I don't get how anyone could possibly NOT like those sucker punches.

 

If I wanted encounters to scale strictly by area, I'd play MMOs. Also, fooking realism. It makes no sense that a Lich or Dragon is weak just because it happens to reside in a starting area. A dragon is a dragon. It's not meant to be killed by lowlevel adventurers.

 

 

Granted, BG2 wouldn't be as good as it is without encounters like Kangaxx, Firkraag, the roguestone house in the bridge district or the mindflayer dungeon in the sewers. Having all those secret, sinister places filled with legendary battles readily available early in the game is what made BG2 magical. There is nothing like "I'll definitely come back to you, mofo!" after getting your ass whooped and then return several levels later to show them who is the boss.

 

All those encounters were perfectly optional. In fact, I'm pretty sure most people didn't even find them in their first game. And except for the roguestone dungeon, you always have the option to back out again if you realize it's way beyond your party's capabilities.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[PrimeJunta]

@Zwiebelchen I agree, those were among the coolest things ever.

 

Hiro is talking about something different though: I contend that having stuff like the Firkraag and Beholder Cult quests actively pushed on you from the very beginning, while having you actively hunt for easier starter quests like the slavers, thieves' guild, or the Bridge District murders is wrong-headed. 

 

The only thing I would've changed is put Firkraag in the Den of Seven Vales and the Helmite priest in the temple of Helm at the start, and only move them to the Copper Coronet and the streets of the Temple District once you've leveled up a few times, if you haven't talked to them already. And add some kid telling you about his uncle who's being forced to fight as a gladiator in the Copper Coronet, and some similar way to nudge you towards the Bridge District.

 

I think it's way cool that all that content is accessible initially; I think it's really dumb to have the game push them on you from the get-go.

 

For some reason, this appears to make Hiro extremely upset since he keeps needling me about it for nearly two years now.

Edited April 2, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Eurhetemec]

 

 

Oh, so when asking the NPC by the bridge about the surrounding area and him saying his friend might be still alive in a cave, you're not going to check it out and try to save his friend? You're going to ignore this, take some time to go and find some companions and then go back to this area to take on this unknown threat? Funny how sucker punches in PoE are okay but in the IE games, they're not.

 

 

I get what you're saying, but you're not comparing like-with-like.

 

The only potential "sucker punch" I've found in Pillars, so far, is the bear, and it's kind of an obvious one, and even if you "fall for" it repeatedly, you've wasted like, what, a few minutes? Just reload the autosave from when you enter the bear den.

 

Whereas in Baldur's Gate 2, some of that stuff was absolutely horrible - you could basically dig yourself into a massive hole, and be fighting enemies who you essentially had no chance of defeating, because you hadn't leveled up enough, and it was the story of the game that had tried to shove you into it. Further, as I recall, and it has been a few years, you could get into a situation where you couldn't even just back out of it - where the only way out was through - but you were incapable of going through, because you weren't high enough level.

 

I certainly remember at one point in mid-BG2 I had to reload a save game that was like, six or eight hours back, because there was just no way I could continue, and that was the last save I had before I'd committed to that mission.

[PrimeJunta]

Planar Sphere. Klunk, you're locked in. If you're under-leveled, getting through those mage fights and especially the demons is not trivial. It's also the one that's pushed on you from the first time you exit Waukeen's Promenade if you're a wizard. 

 

(If you're not a wizard though it's fine as you'll have to actively hunt for it; it's not something you'd likely accidentally stumble into.)

[Katarack21]

Planar Sphere. Klunk, you're locked in. If you're under-leveled, getting through those mage fights and especially the demons is not trivial. It's also the one that's pushed on you from the first time you exit Waukeen's Promenade if you're a wizard. 

 

(If you're not a wizard though it's fine as you'll have to actively hunt for it; it's not something you'd likely accidentally stumble into.)

On the other hand, at the appropriate level it is also one of the coolest quest lines in the entire game.

[PrimeJunta]

Absolutely, it's one of my favorites. Just like Firkraag.

Still hate those stupid beholders. If you don't use the Shield of Cheese it's micromanage-y as hey.

Edited April 2, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[kirottu]

It's only metagaming if you have this scene running on the background while you fight the bear.

https://youtu.be/9ALOI63X_CE

[Eurhetemec]

 

Planar Sphere. Klunk, you're locked in. If you're under-leveled, getting through those mage fights and especially the demons is not trivial. It's also the one that's pushed on you from the first time you exit Waukeen's Promenade if you're a wizard. 

 

(If you're not a wizard though it's fine as you'll have to actively hunt for it; it's not something you'd likely accidentally stumble into.)

On the other hand, at the appropriate level it is also one of the coolest quest lines in the entire game.

 

 

That's the thing - in an ideal world, level-locked stuff that's highly customized tends to be more interesting/engaging/memorable than generated/leveled stuff (though Skyrim proves that if you introduce enough craziness and physics into proceedings there can be exceptions!), so I am glad it's there. It just needs to be placed/signposted in such a way that you don't rush into it headlong too much, and designed such that there's a way to back out without losing hours of saves (if you even can do that!).

 

I think Pillars does a good job with this, myself - unlike, say, D:OS, which seemed happy to place basically undefeatable (at the level you found them) encounters less than a screen-length away from bog-standard (at the level you found them) ones, and to put them actually inside towns/cities and so on, so you could easily wander into them. It's one thing to have a dragon cave or a dank dungeon containing instant death, it's quite another when walking down the apparent path to your destination involves your annihilation, and going the opposite way does the same, and only finding the relatively slim path between offers actual gameplay. Bah!

[Zwiebelchen]

The beholder dungeon is actually victim of the ****ed up mob balancing of beholders. Basicly, the smaller ones (Gauths) are way more dangerous than the large beholders.

 

And while you can avoid most of the beholders in the actual beholder cave (basicly, the only one you have to kill is the single Gauth in the sceptre room) the real sucker punch of this quest is the level-adjusted spawn after the bridge riddle that can not be avoided.

 

The game assumes Gauths to be easier than grown Beholders. But this is unfortunately not the case. I'd say this is more of a bug than an intended feature. If you happen to do this quest at a later point in the game and get the level adjusted spawn that contains grown beholders, you'll find that battle much easier to win.

 

Actually, I've found that most of the unavoidable sucker-punches in BG2 are due to the few level adjusted spawning zones. Getting a Lich surrounded by greater Mummies in spellhold is a slap in the face if you happened to be just slightly above the level treshold for the next encounter size to trigger.

 

 

PoE doesn't have this mechanic, fortunately.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Zwiebelchen

[Yenkins]

 

reload-itis is something all tactical games suffer from to greater or lesser extent.

 

Shadowrun is the worst at this:

80% hit chance -- miss

90% hit chance -- miss

95% hit chance -- miss

 

This happens consecutively. They need a completely new combat system.

 

Reloading frequently can really destroy the enjoyment of the whole game.

 

I finished Dragonfall twice and their combat system is absolutely fine. You are just the next victim of Random Number God.

 

 

Anyway, bears were a great lesson to not to mess with mother nature like that That first serious engagement led me to believe PoE is gonna be great... and it is. Great times for isometric RPGs - Shadowrun, Pillars, new Torment, maybe BG3? 

[76prophet]

 

I think part of it is that people are too used to games giving things like a level indicator to show hard a fight will be. Instead PoE follows the good old formula of if the fight looks hard, it probably is (at least when you're new to the game). You don't go up and fight a dragon without being prepared to take a little damage. As for the bear, doesn't it make sense that a low level solo character would have a very hard time against it (not counting cheese strats), not an animal most people would want to face 1v1.

 

My character is a ranger with a bear companion.  I basically assumed the enemy bear would be two to three times as strong as my own bear just to be safe.  Unfortunately it turns out the enemy bear adhered to a different law of physics and killed my own bear and myself in a cheap single blow.

 

It's my own fault for trying to role play in a role playing game.  As always meta gaming is key. 

 

So, you're role playing. Allow me to put this to you:

 

 

 

For various personal reasons, you've decided to pack up and take a little trip to start a new life or just do what-the-heck-ever cause that's how you roll. You get sick somewhere along the journey. Bummer. Tummy aches suck. But, berry tea is awesome for tummy aches....conveniently...the caravan has to stop overnight in an unexpected location where said berries are known to grow. Sa-WEET! Caravan Leader Bob sends some dude to fetch you some water, and you run off with this blond lady to get some berries.

 

It's dark. Perhaps a little scary. You don't feel well, you're sick and tired and your ass hurts from sitting on those god awful wagon seats. Oh for a pillow!! Anyway, after dispatching a wolf, you get your Berries of Tummy-ache-begone. YAY! Tea incoming! You trot along to find the dude with the water. The stream is *that-a-away* <merrily skip>. Tra-la-lalalala and all that. Let the good times roll. However, the water boy is mysteriously absent. Blond lady assumes he's gone off to do a little hunting. But, he left the water skin so that's cool, I guess. Still, it might have been nice if he had mentioned this was his plan. No biggie, you've got berries. You've got water. Tea is imminent. Nothing can stop you now!

 

This is where things get a little weird. Water boy wanders out of the bush with an arrow in his back! Holy crap! What's going on!? He's not looking too good. Surprise, he's dead now. That's a bit sad, but he was a bit of a jerk so you're not gonna lose much sleep over it. Still, life is sacred and all that malarkey. Now, water in hand, berries in pocket, blond lady at your side, you continue on....<AMBUSH>

 

This isn't good. With the help of blond lady, you dispatch the locals who attacked you unprovoked. Maybe you should get back to caravan. Hopefully, everything is awesome. Everything is not awesome. You mightily dispatch a couple more random attackers on your way back. Holy guts and gizzards, blond lady! Everyone but the (sneaky rogue) merchant is dead, and some wild dudes are eyeing you up like you're a nice juicy bacon and tomato sandwich.

 

Stuff happens. Everyone but you, blond lady, and sneaky merchant is dead. Getting a bit windy, isn't it? That's....odd. What the heck is up with this crazy storm. With his dying breath, Caravan Leader Bob politely suggests you head into the caves he previously said were probably pretty dangerous. This storm is freaky, though, so off you skip into the caves.

 

More stuff happens. You escape the caves. You haven't had your tea though. The tummy is still a-rumbling. Phew, though. Fresh air. The storm has past, and you take a moment to catch your breath. At his point, you notice some crazy ruins, complete with Masked Mystery Monologue Man. You though the events leading up to this were a bit sketchy. Life is just about to get really weird. Stuff happens. Chants. Spells. Crazy lights. Glowing rocks. You pass the heck out. This is all a bit too much.

 

You awake. Blond lady is dead. Bummer, she was kinda cute. Sneaky Merchant is dead too. Oh well, you take their stuff. You're head really bloody hurts now though. You are feeling really sick...and there is glowing ghostly weird things popping into sight all over the place. There has got to be some place I can get a bit of help. Gotta get the heck outta dodge. This ain't cool. Homie don't play 'dis. 

 

Walking happens. You come across a dead guy in the grass. Oh look. Plants too. That's nice. In the distance, you can see a road. In the further distance, you can just make out what looks like a town.

 

What do you do now?

 

 

 

After all that, you decide to frolic merrily into same really dark cave rather than b-line to the nearest inn to quaff an ail, feel up a wench, and see if you can find somebody to help you with this what's been going on. Fair enough. Free will and all that. Unfortunately, there is no correlation between free will and intelligence. Maybe you should think about making better life choices. Good luck. Live and learn.

[76prophet]

Proofreading is good, but that got way too long and I just don't care.  

[Hellraiser789]

 

 

I think part of it is that people are too used to games giving things like a level indicator to show hard a fight will be. Instead PoE follows the good old formula of if the fight looks hard, it probably is (at least when you're new to the game). You don't go up and fight a dragon without being prepared to take a little damage. As for the bear, doesn't it make sense that a low level solo character would have a very hard time against it (not counting cheese strats), not an animal most people would want to face 1v1.

 

My character is a ranger with a bear companion.  I basically assumed the enemy bear would be two to three times as strong as my own bear just to be safe.  Unfortunately it turns out the enemy bear adhered to a different law of physics and killed my own bear and myself in a cheap single blow.

 

It's my own fault for trying to role play in a role playing game.  As always meta gaming is key. 

 

So, you're role playing. Allow me to put this to you:

 

 

 

 

For various personal reasons, you've decided to pack up and take a little trip to start a new life or just do what-the-heck-ever cause that's how you roll. You get sick somewhere along the journey. Bummer. Tummy aches suck. But, berry tea is awesome for tummy aches....conveniently...the caravan has to stop overnight in an unexpected location where said berries are known to grow. Sa-WEET! Caravan Leader Bob sends some dude to fetch you some water, and you run off with this blond lady to get some berries.

 

It's dark. Perhaps a little scary. You don't feel well, you're sick and tired and your ass hurts from sitting on those god awful wagon seats. Oh for a pillow!! Anyway, after dispatching a wolf, you get your Berries of Tummy-ache-begone. YAY! Tea incoming! You trot along to find the dude with the water. The stream is *that-a-away* <merrily skip>. Tra-la-lalalala and all that. Let the good times roll. However, the water boy is mysteriously absent. Blond lady assumes he's gone off to do a little hunting. But, he left the water skin so that's cool, I guess. Still, it might have been nice if he had mentioned this was his plan. No biggie, you've got berries. You've got water. Tea is imminent. Nothing can stop you now!

 

This is where things get a little weird. Water boy wanders out of the bush with an arrow in his back! Holy crap! What's going on!? He's not looking too good. Surprise, he's dead now. That's a bit sad, but he was a bit of a jerk so you're not gonna lose much sleep over it. Still, life is sacred and all that malarkey. Now, water in hand, berries in pocket, blond lady at your side, you continue on....<AMBUSH>

 

This isn't good. With the help of blond lady, you dispatch the locals who attacked you unprovoked. Maybe you should get back to caravan. Hopefully, everything is awesome. Everything is not awesome. You mightily dispatch a couple more random attackers on your way back. Holy guts and gizzards, blond lady! Everyone but the (sneaky rogue) merchant is dead, and some wild dudes are eyeing you up like you're a nice juicy bacon and tomato sandwich.

 

Stuff happens. Everyone but you, blond lady, and sneaky merchant is dead. Getting a bit windy, isn't it? That's....odd. What the heck is up with this crazy storm. With his dying breath, Caravan Leader Bob politely suggests you head into the caves he previously said were probably pretty dangerous. This storm is freaky, though, so off you skip into the caves.

 

More stuff happens. You escape the caves. You haven't had your tea though. The tummy is still a-rumbling. Phew, though. Fresh air. The storm has past, and you take a moment to catch your breath. At his point, you notice some crazy ruins, complete with Masked Mystery Monologue Man. You though the events leading up to this were a bit sketchy. Life is just about to get really weird. Stuff happens. Chants. Spells. Crazy lights. Glowing rocks. You pass the heck out. This is all a bit too much.

 

You awake. Blond lady is dead. Bummer, she was kinda cute. Sneaky Merchant is dead too. Oh well, you take their stuff. You're head really bloody hurts now though. You are feeling really sick...and there is glowing ghostly weird things popping into sight all over the place. There has got to be some place I can get a bit of help. Gotta get the heck outta dodge. This ain't cool. Homie don't play 'dis. 

 

Walking happens. You come across a dead guy in the grass. Oh look. Plants too. That's nice. In the distance, you can see a road. In the further distance, you can just make out what looks like a town.

 

What do you do now?

 

 

 

 

After all that, you decide to frolic merrily into same really dark cave rather than b-line to the nearest inn to quaff an ail, feel up a wench, and see if you can find somebody to help you with this what's been going on. Fair enough. Free will and all that. Unfortunately, there is no correlation between free will and intelligence. Maybe you should think about making better life choices. Good luck. Live and learn.

 

 

 

Reminds me of those old "choose your story" Goosebumps books. Did you have free choice? sure, you could choose whatever you want. Did you die if you chose wrongly? All the freaking time. D*** those books got frustrating! But they were still cool cuz you got to pick your story and stuff. Doesn't mean you can't chose wrong though. lol

Edited April 2, 2015 by Hellraiser789

[76prophet]

Off topic. I may be a generation and a bit older than you are.    All good, I know what you're talking about. In my childhood, we had the Choose Your Own Adventure series of books. Same idea. But yeah, awesome and frustrating.

 

Anywho, OP, welcome to life, games, and everything in between. Choices have consequences. Sometimes they're good. Sometimes they're less good. Sometimes...you die (but at least that's all fantasy and role play, so you get to try again). Make different choices. Adapt. Get on with it. Skip merrily however you wish, but don't forget to make that tea at some point. It might taste like crap, but it'll do you some good.

[Hellraiser789]

Off topic. I may be a generation and a bit older than you are.    All good, I know what you're talking about. In my childhood, we had the Choose Your Own Adventure series of books. Same idea. But yeah, awesome and frustrating.

 

Anywho, OP, welcome to life, games, and everything in between. Choices have consequences. Sometimes they're good. Sometimes they're less good. Sometimes...you die (but at least that's all fantasy and role play, so you get to try again). Make different choices. Adapt. Get on with it. Skip merrily however you wish, but don't forget to make that tea at some point. It might taste like crap, but it'll do you some good.

 

Yo that stuff looks great! Why was I wasting my time with Goosebumps? Lol. Man, I should've been born like 10 years earlier or something. By the time I'd heard of D&D nobody really played P&P (at least nobody I knew that was my age)   so I kinda missed out. Granted, it could've been much worse; I could've been born after 2000 where everyone needs their WoW and CoD fix and RPGs are old and outdated... thank god for the older generation who saved money and backed this project! Honestly thought this stuff had died out after BG2 (sure there's Dragon Age and others, but its not the same...)

Edited April 2, 2015 by Hellraiser789