What attribute bonuses should have been

[TheUsernamelessOne]

Created an account just to talk about how dumb this idea is. Are you guys playing a different game than I am? My stock NPC wizard with "who cares" amount of might is raining aoe death on people, working as intended.

 

If you want to min/max, you're going to have a mega-mage that can bend bars. But guess what, you were going to have something absurd anyway, because you're ****ing min/maxing. Wizard bases are through the roof on damage anyway, and no scaling in this game is all that amazing (except survival which scales just stupidly well).

 

You guys are bad at video games and you're trying to tell people who make video games how to make video games. This might as well be the League of Legends forums.

 

Yes. It is also worth pointing out that you could probably roll a character with straight 10's and not miss out on much. It's not like you need to be smart to be a good wizard, or strong to be a good fighter, or dextrous to be a good rogue. The only point of the attributes is scaling bonuses that don't really amount to all that much.

 

20 Might increases your damage output by 30%. An arquebus/fan of flames deals about 40-ish damage currently, so that increases it to about 52. Not really a drastic difference, honestly, the way Pillars plays, though it might take the edge off the enemy's DR. Having 15 Perception and 15 Resolve adds 10 to your Deflection, the equivalent of +2 Armor Class in D&D (only worse because grazes mean it's less useful). Meh.

Edited March 31, 2015 by TheUsernamelessOne

[Cronstintein]

1.5x duration on crits is still in play.

 

I saw a breakdown on the math in another thread that worked out that +6ACC was about 7% damage so I don't think it's really putting might out of business if it was just 1-2/stat.

[W.MacKinnon]

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

To note "Might" does denote physical strength in-game.

 

In an early dungeon the Might attribute is used to determine if a character can break down a stone wall.

 

[TheUsernamelessOne]

1.5x duration on crits is still in play.

 

I saw a breakdown on the math in another thread that worked out that +6ACC was about 7% damage so I don't think it's really putting might out of business if it was just 1-2/stat.

 

Except Accuracy is also used for stuff that doesn't do damage but hurts far, far worse than any amount of hit point damage when it hits, like paralysis or charm spells. That's why, as beta testers are attesting, it proved too unbalanced to have it linked to any attribute.

[Skor]

I also don't consider might to be physical bulk and can usually remember I'm playing a game and that some things have to be abstracted or some disbelief suspended.

 

In my humble opinion (30+ years of running table top rpgs), I would have done something more along the lines of this:

 

• Might:  + melee damage, + fortitude, + might requirement for equiping various weapons and armor
• Intelligence:  + Area of effect, + Will, + Damage (spells)

 

I'll take obsidian;s large team of professional designers/coders with numerous successful games bought by hundreds of thousands of players over your 30 years of doing things your own way with a few friends.  Or over what any armchair nobody wannabe designer/developer (modder) thinks the game should be like (in fact I'd go so far as to say I find many modders who think they know how to balance games created by other people better than those people to be very annoying most of the time)  /shrug

 

Plus, the idea of having strength be the only stat melee dps cares about along with int being the only stat casters care about (in your system) is part of the problem.  No mage needs strength in D&D or typical systems and no melee needs int.  At least in the PoE system there is SOME degree of need for more stats for more characters and more options for builds.

 

PoE may not be perfect but it's refreshing to see some different ideas and approaches rather than just the generic, and I like that the game isn't D&D since as much as I love D&D and grew up playing pnp D&D it's not a perfect system by any means either.  Some people are overly attached to it and are having troubles accepting a different take, that much seems to be happening.

 

You obviously lack creativity in designing characters for pnp then.  Besides, I never said str was the only stat a melee would care or int for casters.  You obviously didn't really read what I wrote.  Dex, con, and resolve might be considered important for a melee damage dealer in the variant that I gave as an example.  I've played many many MANY other game systems than just D&D.  I don't know why so many people automatically assume that's the only measuring stick.

[Lephys]

I disagree with some of the original complaint.  Being high on might does not make one into Conan.  Might is not necessarily strength or endurance.  Might is eEither force of will or force of arms or force of spells; as in "Rod of Lordly Might" for the D&Ders.  It makes sense.  A high strength character might be absolutely horrible at using a sword, since there's more to it than just swinging hard.

There's an idea being missed here. Being high on Might doesn't make you into Conan, but it effectively does because there's absolutely no distinction between two separate entities (soul strength and physical strength). Either they're the same thing, and everyone's muscles are directly proportionate to their soul strength, or they aren't. Now, it's possible that they're just literally one factor of a person, but that's pretty bland in my book (bye bye "this child has ludicrous soul power, so they're able to do amazing things despite being small and frail," or "this Conan guy is super buff, but his soul is very weak.")

 

Does that make sense? The problem isn't that one stat means only one type of strength exists. The problem is the identification of two things, but the measurement of both of them with one stick. Can Conan throw a piano across the room while a small child cannot? If so, what would a Conan with a strong soul be able to do? Doesn't matter, 'cause all Conans just have "18 Might." Also, gone are any situations in which soul strength could affect something that physical strength could not, etc.

 

Also, does your muscle size affect the potency of your Fan of Flames, as a Wizard? If not, then it's only half your Might stat that's affecting your magic, but you can't measure it. Is 17 of your Might from soul-strength, and 1 Might is from muscles? If so, your spells would only get the benefit of 17 Might. But they're getting the benefit of all 18, which means you have 0 strength that isn't coming from your soul. So, how do you function? Are you just a puppet body, animated by pseudo-telekinetic soul energy from your own mind? If so, why do yo have a physical body with muscles?

 

So, anywho, abstractly, sure, it's fine. "Meh, you have two kinds of strength, and everyone has both kinds, and we aren't measuring them exactly, but you do 'strong' things because of them." But, when people say that, mechanically, Might makes the existence of either individual source of power meaningless, that's actually true. That's the main thing. However strong you are, the world doesn't care where it comes from. Kinetic force exists in the world, because a rock can fall on you and still crush you, and yet a fist traveling at a speed and striking something can never be just physical force. It's always simultaneously some unknown mixture of soul power as well.

[Skor]

.

 

 

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.
 
in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

To note "Might" does denote physical strength in-game.

In an early dungeon the Might attribute is used to determine if a character can break down a stone wall.

 

 

I'm getting the idea that those who defend might in its current form use the 'Chuck Norris' definition of might.  When you succeed in a might check such for that crumbling wall, its more like 'Chuck norris doesn't break down walls, they just fall to pieces in his presence'.

[Katarack21]

 

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

In Eora, souls are a real, examinable, measurable, quantifiable objects that can be made to do work. Wizards do not use magic to cast spells--each spell is a specific way of using their soul to strike out, which causes certain predictable effects because of the way they are trained to apply that power. Ciphers powers are similar, only instead of striking out with their souls they use their souls to manipulate other souls. All magic, of any time, comes form that basis. Here is the definition of magic in Pillars of Eternity:

 

"Magic is created through accessing the power of people's souls. Different groups or people access these souls in different ways, so there is one source but varied techniques of use."

 

There's a lot that the people of Eora either don't know about souls or are in the process of figuring out; that's what animancy is basically all about. In PoE, you are playing in the time period wherein all of this discovery is being done--and the controversy surrounding it is actually vital to the plot of the game. One of the things about souls that is understood is that, while they do other things as well, they are also a kind of energy source.

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

 

 

I am not making a mistake. I am familiar with what they've said about how the world works and what the stat represents. I am saying that I disagree with the way they've designed attributes, both in a mechanical sense and in a fluff sense.

 

You clearly aren't as you thought "soul power" was something to do with will to action. If you don't like their design decisions, that's fine--and if you don't like the mechanics, that's legit. But a cursory understanding of the lore and how the stats effect combat will let you know that it's not "broken" nor does it "not make sense".

 

Their interactive script doesn't demonstrate the non-physical meanings of "might", that's true, but that's pretty much it.

[dirigible]

I don't really get people who act like this system prevents dump stats from happening. They're still happening.

 

Why would I stack Constitution on my Wizard?

Why would I stack Intelligence on my Fighter?

Why would I stack Resolve on my Ranger?

I wouldn't. They're dump stats for those classes.

 

Making it such that Might affects melee damage and Perception affects Ranged damage won't create dump stats, it will simply shift which stats are dump stats, while making the game a bit more lore-friendly.

[View619]

.

 

 

the problem is the definition of 'might' with which you're working. which is perfectly understandable.

 

in Pillars, might is not physical power, but rather the strength of the soul, an idea which is highly flavourful and appropriate to the specific setting they've concocted.

To note "Might" does denote physical strength in-game.

 

In an early dungeon the Might attribute is used to determine if a character can break down a stone wall.

 

 

I'm getting the idea that those who defend might in its current form use the 'Chuck Norris' definition of might.  When you succeed in a might check such for that crumbling wall, its more like 'Chuck norris doesn't break down walls, they just fall to pieces in his presence'.

 

More like trying to find an abstract way to define Might as soul/physical power in general without clamoring that OE change the attributes to our wishes. Seriously, I wonder why people who want major changes in attributes don't start looking into developing some type of mod. It's not like POE code is inaccessible.

 

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to have a system where all stats are viable for every class build. Outside of tweaking con and maybe per, I don't think there's anything else that can be done. With the current system, at least I get some benefits for doing things like making a perceptive wizard, intelligent fighter, resolute barbarian without completely gimping the build; please don't bring up min/maxing. Things like adding intelligence to fighters in IE games offer no benefits.

Edited March 31, 2015 by View619

[Lephys]

Constitution's probably the biggest glaring example right there. It is mathematically BY FAR an inferior choice for a Wizard.

 

That could easily be fixed, though, by simply evening out the base Health/Endurance values of classes, and/or changing the CON bonus into an integer (it would be less of a % gain for Fighters/Barbarians and such, but you could STILL have the level-up gains be % based.) Just imagine if 18 CON gave you +26 Endurance. Even if you didn't change the base values for the classes, as a Wizard, that would give you +78 Health and +26 Endurance. That's a heck of a lot better than +8. And if you pumped all those points into CON, it's not like you can still have maxed out MIG, INT, and DEX or anything. So, it wouldn't be "OP." It would simply better allow you to build a Wizard that actually expects to see some melee action. As it stands, you can max it for +8 Endurance, which is less than 1 more hit from most things (unless you're wearing full plate, in which case you'll be standing around for so long between actions that the enemies will get even more attacks against your still-pathetic Deflection -- also just because you're a Wizard -- that the advantage from the armor's DR will cancel itself out by exposing you to more potential attacks that are probably going to not be grazes or misses).

 

 

Honestly, I don't think it's possible to have a system where all stats are viable for every class build.

It isn't. But it's possible to have a system where all stats are viable for every class. The different builds are always going to favor different stats. But your class shouldn't determine which stats are useless to you. That should be circumstantially dependent upon how you choose to build that class. And that's as much the stat system's responsibility as it is the class system's.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lephys

[Cronstintein]

I'm sure there are people working on it right now!  Attribute mods will be coming out real fast, a testament to obsidian screwing the pooch somewhat.  When I watched a video a few months ago about how "every stat would be good for every character" I thought that was a really cool idea.  Unfortunately they didn't really pull it off (in my opinion).

 

Perception and resolve need better non-tank applications.  Dexterity could also use a slight boost, imho.

[Cronstintein]

Except Accuracy is also used for stuff that doesn't do damage but hurts far, far worse than any amount of hit point damage when it hits, like paralysis or charm spells. That's why, as beta testers are attesting, it proved too unbalanced to have it linked to any attribute.

 

 

That was kinda my point about it being too good.  Maybe if resolve improved acc when opponents were saving vs will, DEX ++acc when they save vs reflex, etc...  

 

Or made more directly:

 

A will attack would be my will (as accuracy) vs your will as defense.  That would make a certain amount of sense.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Cronstintein

[Lephys]

Perception and Resolve DO have good non-tank applications. Resolve keeps your Wizard a-castin', for example, when he gets hit by things, for example, and the +Interrupt from Perception can be very useful with, say, a Rogue with dual-weapons, just to interrupt the crap out of some enemy you don't want hulk-smashing everyone to death.

 

That being said, the Interrupt/Concentration system is a bit too "behind-the-scenes" and could probably use a little work. It's extremely passive at this point.

[dirigible]

Perception and Resolve DO have good non-tank applications. Resolve keeps your Wizard a-castin', for example, when he gets hit by things, for example, and the +Interrupt from Perception can be very useful with, say, a Rogue with dual-weapons, just to interrupt the crap out of some enemy you don't want hulk-smashing everyone to death.

 

That being said, the Interrupt/Concentration system is a bit too "behind-the-scenes" and could probably use a little work. It's extremely passive at this point.

I'm not going to stack Resolve on my Wizard for the same reason I'm not going to stack Perception or Constitution: I don't plan on having my wizard tanking hits.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

 

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

In Eora, souls are a real, examinable, measurable, quantifiable objects that can be made to do work. Wizards do not use magic to cast spells--each spell is a specific way of using their soul to strike out, which causes certain predictable effects because of the way they are trained to apply that power. Ciphers powers are similar, only instead of striking out with their souls they use their souls to manipulate other souls. All magic, of any time, comes form that basis. Here is the definition of magic in Pillars of Eternity:

 

"Magic is created through accessing the power of people's souls. Different groups or people access these souls in different ways, so there is one source but varied techniques of use."

 

There's a lot that the people of Eora either don't know about souls or are in the process of figuring out; that's what animancy is basically all about. In PoE, you are playing in the time period wherein all of this discovery is being done--and the controversy surrounding it is actually vital to the plot of the game. One of the things about souls that is understood is that, while they do other things as well, they are also a kind of energy source.

 

Again, official lore:

 

"Through a variety of techniques (e.g. martial training, meditation, ritualistic evocation, mortification of the flesh), some individuals are able to draw upon the energy of their soul to accomplish extraordinary feats. These abilities range from the mundanely superhuman to the explosively magical. Having a strong soul seems to make this easier, but sometimes even people with fragmented souls are able to accomplish the extraordinary. The individual's body seems to act as a conduit and battery for this power, drawing in replenishment from seemingly omnipresent "fields" of unbound spiritual energy in the world around them."

 

Ah-ha! There is the source of your mistake. In Pillars of Eternity, spells and Cipher powers and such are not psychic and do not come form "magic." When I discuss soul power, I'm not talking about will to power--nor am I talking about some ineffable concept.

 

 

I am not making a mistake. I am familiar with what they've said about how the world works and what the stat represents. I am saying that I disagree with the way they've designed attributes, both in a mechanical sense and in a fluff sense.

 

You clearly aren't as you thought "soul power" was something to do with will to action. If you don't like their design decisions, that's fine--and if you don't like the mechanics, that's legit. But a cursory understanding of the lore and how the stats effect combat will let you know that it's not "broken" nor does it "not make sense".

 

Their interactive script doesn't demonstrate the non-physical meanings of "might", that's true, but that's pretty much it.

 

 

Alright. Why does Might make guns do more damage? If Might represents the power of the soul and body, why is the only effect it has on magic to make damaging effects more damaging? Might does nothing to contribute to the AoE, duration, or Accuracy of any of your powers. How does Might contribute to an arm-wrestling contest? Can you throw things farther if you have more Might? Does a weight-lifting regimen make your guns do more damage? If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains? In order to be physically strong are you forced to be both physically conditioned and spiritually enlightened, in a holistic sense, or is one or the other enough?

 

The problem is that they have put two very unlike concepts under the umbrella of the same attribute. Hand-eye coordination, reflexes, and speed are similar enough to be grouped together under "Dexterity." Physical strength, skill at intimidation, and "soul power" are so unlike that it seems very jarring to lump them together under the same label.

[Lephys]

^^ Understandable, but it's really the game's fault if:

 

A) It's easy to just prevent your Wizard from ever taking hits (thus Concentration never being a significant factor)

B) It's not even feasible for your Wizard to really take many hits, because he just dies in 2 or 3 of them. The fewer hits you can take without being dead, the less you can really be aided by Concentration.

 

My point is, you said it they need more non-tank applications. And they have them. That being said, it might not be the stats' fault, but it's currently (as pointed at above) highly infeasible to have your Wizard taking a bunch of hits. Or, not without heavy armor, which is ALSO pretty infeasible, seeing as how you gain less by it (because of crappy Deflection on Wizards) than other classes do, AND it slows down your casting time, negating any time saved by ensuring that you aren't Interrupted. Etc.

 

The concepts for the stats are sound, but the field in which they are operating is uneven.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Lephys

[View619]

Perception and Resolve DO have good non-tank applications. Resolve keeps your Wizard a-castin', for example, when he gets hit by things, for example, and the +Interrupt from Perception can be very useful with, say, a Rogue with dual-weapons, just to interrupt the crap out of some enemy you don't want hulk-smashing everyone to death.

 

That being said, the Interrupt/Concentration system is a bit too "behind-the-scenes" and could probably use a little work. It's extremely passive at this point.

 

This. Technically, 5/6 stats are useful for every class. Resolve reduces the chance of an interrupt during spell casting/actions, perception gives increased interrupt chance and reflex, might, int and dex are obviously good. Clearly some stats will be more favourable than others depending on what you plan on doing with a unit (e.g. not putting points into res on your back line since you don't expect them to take hits), but it's up to encounter design to bring out the negatives of different choices.

 

Also, I have to agree with interrupts not being as obvious as they should be. Another feature that could use some tweaking, imo.

Edited March 31, 2015 by View619

[dirigible]

If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains?

In some settings it does, yes.

[TheUsernamelessOne]

 

If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains?

In some settings it does, yes.

 

 

So is that how it works in this setting? Is this medieval fantasy Dragonball?

[View619]

 

 

If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains?

In some settings it does, yes.

 

 

So is that how it works in this setting? Is this medieval fantasy Dragonball?

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if might or soul power is the equivalent of ki, hence the incredible feats of strength even though you're not physically imposing.

Edited March 31, 2015 by View619

[Cronstintein]

All the attribute effects are passive.  The problem with Interrupt/concentration is that they aren't worth squat comparatively.  (Also concentration is effectively a tanking stat)

[dirigible]

This. Technically, 5/6 stats are useful for every class. Resolve reduces the chance of an interrupt during spell casting/actions, perception gives increased interrupt chance and reflex, might, int and dex are obviously good. Clearly some stats will be more favourable then others depending on what you plan on doing with a class (e.g. not putting points into res on your back line since you don't expect them to take hits), but it's up to encounter design to bring out the negatives of different choices.

 

Also, I have to agree with interrupts not being as obvious as they should be. Another feature that could use some tweaking, imo.

 

Break down each stat and see what it's good for.

 

Might = almost entirely offense (slash healing)

Constitution = survivability

Dexterity = helps almost everything you do, therefore has no specialization

Perception = survivability - the interrupt bonus provides a bit of soft cc

Intelligence = helps almost everything you do, but only if you're a class that has lots of AoE / DoT

Resolve = survivability and bit of resistance to soft cc

 

So Con, Per, and Resolve are ONLY helpful if you're getting hit. On anyone who's going to spend 90% of their time not getting hit, they're dump stats.

Dex is equally good on everyone, which means it's a non-choice.

Intelligence is completely worthless to many classes.

All that's left is Might. And all classes want Might anyway. It's almost as bland as Dex.

[dirigible]

 

 

If you spend all your time fasting and meditating does that allow you to pick up castles and snap iron chains?

In some settings it does, yes.

 

 

So is that how it works in this setting? Is this medieval fantasy Dragonball?

 

Well I'm not saying it IS, but...

Monk is one of the core classes, and when you target an enemy you can check their power level.

[Jasta11]

I wouldn't want requirement for equipment. At all. I very much enjoy the current system where I can have my mage in full plate armor wielding a battle axe or a barbarian with a backup blunderbuss if I want to. It's not very viable, sure, but I can do it and it pleases me.

 

Besides that, I think Obsidian did a decent job for attributes overall, but balanced them wrong. Perception should affect more than tanking ability (accuracy? critical chance/damage?). Constitution should be more potent overall, with boosts to defensive saves and perhaps lowering armor penalty to provide small dps boost? Might seems fine to me. Dex might be a bit too useful for everyone. Resolve is pretty much a tank stat, I'd maybe add interrupt resistance to aid casters a bit. Intelect is kind a niche stat for AoE damage dealers, it seems OK that way to me that way too.

 

Really, Perception is the only one that needs an overhaul. Resolve and Constitution are already tank stats, we don't need a third one. I'd be comfortable shifting some of Per's defensive bonuses to Con, and add an offensive component to Per.

Edited March 31, 2015 by Jasta11