Memorials problem.

[santanzchild]

OMFG its a game get your ridiculous politics out of it and stop looking for things to be offended about!  Its bad enough that everything in real life has to be goverened by an overly sensitive PC world.  Atleast let me have my friggen hobbies my god enough already.

[DrTuring]

You know what else would be censorship?  If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."

 

Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.

Yes, yes it is.

 

Even if it was disgusting, even if you didn't agree with it, it should be allowed. If only so that you can prove just how stupid it is.

[SKull]

1: It's not transphobic. It's mildly amusing though.

 

OK I can officially not take it anymore so here goes with my impromptu and totally unsolictated language course for dummies:

 

1: Trans. From Latin. A highly useful word which means to cross over.

2: Phobia. An irrational and uncontrollable fear.

 

Ergo:

 

3: Transphobia: An irrational and uncontrollable fear of crossing over. Maybe a brigdge, maybe into another dimension. Who knows? Either way I refuse to accept that words are hijacked by pervs like this, as if their sordid little world of personal sexuality matters to anyone but themselves! Am I really the only one on the planet who understands how ridiculous this totally made up word is? I am seriously offended by this misuse of perfectly good words and must demand that it be censored! I am offended even more by morons who get offended at everything as if other people are supposed to care, and must demand that they stop being offended! And I am also offended by demands for censorship and must demand that they be censored! Immediately!

Edited March 29, 2015 by SKull

[Nixl]

 

Since the other thread was closed by Tigraines, then I will quickly repeat: I do not think that the memorial should be changed.  I dislike making such removals, because it seems like a knee-jerk reaction and smells of censorship. If we remove something on the basis that it is offensive/mean, then PoE's story is going to take major cuts.  The story hints at rape, torture, etc.  Do these also need to be removed?

 

If Obsidian does change it, I think the back should be refunded.  No sense in charging for something that was taken away. 

I do think this particular message should be changed, because it is quite offensive to suggest that sleeping with someone who turns out to be a trans woman is so horrific that you would kill yourself afterwards.  If the joke here was that the dude slept with someone who turned out to be black come the next day and killed himself out of shame over doing so, I think the offensiveness would be much more clear.

 

Regarding PoE's mature storylines, I think the difference is that torture, rape, etc., are being treated as serious subjects and not made light of; there's no suggestion that the behaviour is agreed with by Obsidian/condoned, you know?  Which letting this message be in a game they published could certainly be taken as.

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Nixl

[dhamster]

I think it's stupid that people are coming here just to say "don't cave," as if the intent wasn't to get Obsidian to cave to YOUR demands instead.

 

 

You know what else would be censorship?  If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."

 

Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.

Yes, yes it is.

 

Even if it was disgusting, even if you didn't agree with it, it should be allowed. If only so that you can prove just how stupid it is.

 

 

Yeah no, they shouldn't be publishing hypothetical racial slurs in their game just to appease some hypothetical backer.

[Abelian75]

Please, please at least consider not bowing to these bullies.  You don't have to like the joke.  You don't have to approve of the joke.  Just please, please consider how much power you are yielding to these people before acting rashly.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Abelian75

[sparklecat]

 

You know what else would be censorship?  If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."

 

Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.

YES Censorship is always evil.  You never should censor the thought of an artist no matter how offending it is. That is how classic literature was established. It was always something very taboo back  then., It dealt not only with heavy topics but also was very political at its times.  It was approved by the team because they thought its totally fine and therefore it should stay in there.

 

Again if you do not like it. There is a mod on twitter which will remove this joke. Use that . 

 

I think calling some random backer an artist is pushing it here, buddy.

[Mansen]

I'll repeat what I said on the matter on the Steam forums (before a mod decides to remove it - yay) and leave the matter at that.

 

By all means - Let's ban all of the harmless limericks too (which this is), any reference to dead people (Necrophobia), dwarves (Sizeism), mothers and children killed because they are not mentally well (matricide, infaticide) and so on and so forth.

 

Now that harmless limerick suddenly seems a bit silly doesn't it? It is also obviously not a serious stab at transgendered people...

[LeslieLightning]

I know this is the first time I've posted here. I backed, and own the game. Haven't had much time to play it yet.

 

But today I found out that one of the backers created memorials is a anti-trans "joke".

 

You can see the screenshot here http://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/582161950202863616

 

Text for those who can't see the link.

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran"

 

I understand this was created by a backer. But why was something so horrible included in the final game? Could you have not said no and asked for something less transphobic? I know, it's just a joke. As someone who is trans, who backed this game and who was really looking forward to playing it soon, this really has made me angry.

 

I wasn't sure how to bring this up in a different way. I don't know how people will react to this. But I'm really saddened to see that this game I've been waiting over two years for is being ruined for me by one backer making a stupid "Joke" about trans women being men.

I agree that it should never have been approved and it is very offensive in the context of violent attacks on transgender women. I complained about this on the steam forums and got torn apart with transphobic abuse. Is this the kind of community you are catering to?

[Darji]

 

 

You know what else would be censorship?  If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."

 

Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.

YES Censorship is always evil.  You never should censor the thought of an artist no matter how offending it is. That is how classic literature was established. It was always something very taboo back  then., It dealt not only with heavy topics but also was very political at its times.  It was approved by the team because they thought its totally fine and therefore it should stay in there.

 

Again if you do not like it. There is a mod on twitter which will remove this joke. Use that . 

 

I think calling some random backer an artist is pushing it here, buddy.

 

Everything created by a human is art. No matter the quality and he/she created it.  So yes he/she is the artist.  Is it a high form of art? No of course not but that should not matter at all. 

 

And if you go all out. Charlie Hebdo was also an artist and there were over 5 million people marching on the street against censorship and Freedom of speech. Do you do not have to like something but you always should defend the right  for its existing. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[AncientToaster]

SJW's getting offended? What's new.

[DrTuring]

I think it's stupid that people are coming here just to say "don't cave," as if the intent wasn't to get Obsidian to cave to YOUR demands instead.

 

 

You know what else would be censorship?  If they told a backer "no, you can't put that racial slur in your message."

 

Censorship is not inherently evil; context matters.

Yes, yes it is.

 

Even if it was disgusting, even if you didn't agree with it, it should be allowed. If only so that you can prove just how stupid it is.

 

 

Yeah no, they shouldn't be publishing hypothetical racial slurs in their game just to appease some hypothetical backer.

"Our" demands? All most people want is for the game to stand as-is. For Obsidian to not just let some hyper-offended people be the gatekeepers of what is and isn't allowed.

 

And again, censorship is still wrong. Even if it is abbhorrent, people should be allowed to say it, so that people who are smart can refute it.

 

I'm not saying racials slurs are a GOOD thing, I'm saying if someone spent upwards of 500 dollars, and there was no refund coming, then yes, in this hypothetical situation, he can put what he wants in his gravestone.

[sparklecat]

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

 

There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.

 

I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.

[Xatulu]

This is really worrysome.

 

I do hope that Obsidian doesn't bend over to those people and sticks with keeping the backers note in the game. All the claims around this limerick are nothing short but made up.

 

I had a good chuckle at reading that poem and i don't think anyone who is the target audience of the game would seriously be offended by that.

 

Please don't cave, Obsidian. I really want to like you and continue to support you.

[Sakai]

Please, please at least consider not bowing to these bullies.  You don't have to like the joke.  You don't have to approve of the joke.  Just please, please consider how much power you are yielding to these people before acting rashly.

Exactly. These people are not civil rights activist or something like that, they're are just bullies looking for someone to bully. 

[averagedog]

I

 

 

I know this is the first time I've posted here. I backed, and own the game. Haven't had much time to play it yet.

 

But today I found out that one of the backers created memorials is a anti-trans "joke".

 

You can see the screenshot here http://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/582161950202863616

 

Text for those who can't see the link.

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran"

 

I understand this was created by a backer. But why was something so horrible included in the final game? Could you have not said no and asked for something less transphobic? I know, it's just a joke. As someone who is trans, who backed this game and who was really looking forward to playing it soon, this really has made me angry.

 

I wasn't sure how to bring this up in a different way. I don't know how people will react to this. But I'm really saddened to see that this game I've been waiting over two years for is being ruined for me by one backer making a stupid "Joke" about trans women being men.

I agree that it should never have been approved and it is very offensive in the context of violent attacks on transgender women. I complained about this on the steam forums and got torn apart with transphobic abuse. Is this the kind of community you are catering to?

 

How is this offensive in the context of violent attacks on transgender women? The man clearly killed himself and did no physical harm to his sleeping partner that night. You just made the assumption that they had intercourse, you also made the assumption that the man felt shame because he slept with a  GBT person.

 

I can however make the assumption that the man was drunk off his ass and ended up in a bed with another man because he was drunk and didn't care where he slept.

 

Or I can make the assumption that the person he slept with was actually trans, but killed himself for shame because the trans person was bigger than him so he felt less like a man...

 

I could literally go on and on and on with this you know.

[DrTuring]

I think I have an idea that would please everyone in this situation.

 

Make a toggle for all backer content. If you don't want to see backer content, then just make an option to hide it. But don't delete it from the game as a whole.

 

What do you guys think?

[licketysplit]

I have yet to see how this is transphobic. Apparently buzzwords alone are enough to make a case now.

[Cpmartins]

 

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

 

There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.

 

I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.

 

Yeah, except the limerick goes perfectly in line with the setting. Murder, torture, genocide, mildly "offensive" language. Let's ban the language!

Come one, seriously? Do people not see how ridiculous this is?

[Darji]

 

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

 

There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.

 

I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.

 

No the only option would be to be able to disable these messages nothing else. Removing is Censorship and I for example will never stand for Censorship in any form. 

 

If not I also want my Money back and they can delete my Steam version since I will never tolerate any form of Censorship. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[Broadcaster]

 

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

 

There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.

 

I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.

 

 

There's nothing agreeable about removing content from the game because of the easily offended.

 

Nothing.

[YourVoiceisAmbrosia]

I don't know if the devs are actually reading this, but please don't remove it. Even if we were to assume that this, somehow, can be interpreted as offensive, it should also be noted that the world of Pillars of Eternity is grim and filled with cultural clashes. The first town you walk into has a giant tree hanging with corpses of innocent people. Portraying bigotry in a world like this is not the same as actively endorsing it, it's just fitting in with how some of the characters would behave within the context of the game's world. Furthermore, it would be disrespectful to the backers to get rid of it simply because one random guy on the internet complained about getting offended, and the vast majority of forum members appear to agree that there is nothing wrong with it. Please don't get wrapped up in the politics of groups like these, they are only concerned with "victories" and not with games.

Edited March 29, 2015 by YourVoiceisAmbrosia

[floyd ryan]

This is an awkward discussion. So there was a guy that committed suicide because he accidentally had intercourse with a man. Well, i pity him. I don't see how one could be offended by this, i really don't. But now reading that JS wants to remove this because radical extremists post radical things on twitter, that's disappointing! Come on, i didn't throw money at you to get a 100% ueber-PC, clean game! Really Josh, i expected that you stand up for the backer that contributed this!

[CatatonicMan]

I think I have an idea that would please everyone in this situation.

 

Make a toggle for all backer content. If you don't want to see backer content, then just make an option to hide it. But don't delete it from the game as a whole.

 

What do you guys think?

 

Fine by me. People can bury their head in the sand all they want as long as they don't force me to do the same.

[Nixl]

 

 

If the premise is that things that offend people should be removed, then I think it creates a problem to remove a joke hidden in backer memorial, but to leave a story that depicts rape, torture, murder, etc.  It seems like a double standard to demand a joke be censored, but murder and torture are given a free pass. 

 

If Obsidian censors it, the backer should be refunded his money. 

 

edit: Priests spells burn people alive and some attacks have enemies explode into pieces.  How is that less offending to human life than a joke?

 

There's a difference between the in-universe stuff that fits with the general themes and that I trust Obsidian to handle sensitively, because they've done so thus far in my experience and because that is part of their job, and some out of universe backer message like this.

 

I agree that any change should go with the backer in question being offered their money back, and I'm sure if Obsidian decides to do so, they'll make such an offer.

 

I am not sure I agree with the distinction of in-universe being okay, but out of universe messages not being okay. 

 

The focus seems to be that the joke is seen in the game. That being said, if the premise is that bad things should be removed, then why does burning good/bad people to death get a pass? 

 

It just seems like a double standard with regards to violence and murder.