Memorials problem.

[deuxhero]

I once again remind everyone that trying to change something across SEVEN languages is an absolute nightmare and one of the worst things Obsidian could do with their limited resources.

 

If you only change the English version it's an admission nobody but "privledged" people with way too much time on their hand gives a damn and you shouldn't have changed it in the first place.

Edited March 30, 2015 by deuxhero

[Darji]

Serious question. why ISNT Transmisandry a thing? Why is it transmisogyny?

Because people who complain about these things dont think is a problem. Just like some people really believe that there is no racism against white people. 

[alanschu]

Serious question. why ISNT Transmisandry a thing? Why is it transmisogyny?

 

Transmisogyny is simply the intersectional focus that transgender women tend to, in general, face increased hardship by virtue of being a transgender woman compared to transgender men.

 

Some examples of this can be seen with whom trans exclusive radical feminists target (overwhelmingly male to female trans people compared to female to male).  I believe transgender women are also more likely to be murdered and encounter sexual violence, but admittedly I'm still very new to this.

 

I'm still getting over my own transphobia, which typically manifested from a discomfort from the reality that I probably would also freak out if I slept with a woman and she was transgender.  Though I think I'm getting better in this regard and it's something for myself to work on.  (I want to make the clarification that I do not think that someone must be an -ist or -phobe to do -ist or -phobic things.  On this board I once casually used the term "Jap" to describe Japanese people which is a racist slur, and once I accepted that that mistake didn't make me a racist but just a human it was a lot easier for me to accept that type of critique and to respond more appropriately).

 

 

It relates back to the idea/concept of systemic/institutionalized discrimination.  I don't feel misandry is really a thing because while any individual can be a jerk towards a man for being a man, I don't really face wide spread challenges based on being a man. That's not to say there aren't issues that apply to men, but just that those that I do find tend to come from other men (and the supposed accepted ways that a man should behave and the shame for having particular events happen to you, for example).

 

My two cents.

 

 

In any case I don't see the censorship issue here, especially since trans awareness and sensitivity is still in its infancy meaning even if it wasn't noticed prerelease, doesn't mean Obsidian cannot take the feedback and say "Oh we didn't fully appreciate this."  It's complicated because some transgender individuals won't care, while some do. Not really my place to say they should or should not be offended.  Undoubtedly there's other contributions that were refused because Obsidian didn't feel they were appropriate.

Edited March 30, 2015 by alanschu

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 I don't feel misandry is really a thing

 

Here we go. No need to write paragraphs when the heart of the matter are these 8 words you've written. 

[HozzM]

I know this is the first time I've posted here. I backed, and own the game. Haven't had much time to play it yet.

 

But today I found out that one of the backers created memorials is a anti-trans "joke".

 

You can see the screenshot here http://twitter.com/icequeenerika/status/582161950202863616

 

Text for those who can't see the link.

"Firedorn Lightbringer

Here lies Firedorn, a hero in bed

He once was alive and now he's dead

The last woman be bedded, turned out a man

and crying in shame, of a cliff he ran"

 

I understand this was created by a backer. But why was something so horrible included in the final game? Could you have not said no and asked for something less transphobic? I know, it's just a joke. As someone who is trans, who backed this game and who was really looking forward to playing it soon, this really has made me angry.

 

I wasn't sure how to bring this up in a different way. I don't know how people will react to this. But I'm really saddened to see that this game I've been waiting over two years for is being ruined for me by one backer making a stupid "Joke" about trans women being men.

 

How is it horrible?  The guy was upset he accidentally had sex with a man he thought was a woman and he killed himself.  How is that anti-trans?  Or anti-anything?  Lighten up and focus on actual discrimination.

 

This is fine and it needs to stay in the game.

[Chaz]

 

 

 

In any case I don't see the censorship issue here, especially since trans awareness and sensitivity is still in its infancy meaning even if it wasn't noticed prerelease, doesn't mean Obsidian cannot take the feedback and say "Oh we didn't fully appreciate this."  It's complicated because some transgender individuals won't care, while some do. Not really my place to say they should or should not be offended.  Undoubtedly there's other contributions that were refused because Obsidian didn't feel they were appropriate.

 

 

I've seen that some are and some aren't. I still see the joke as open to interpretation, was it really a trans person or was the man so drunk that he confused a man for a woman? You really have to be fishing for something to be offended if you find this so offensive.

 

Not to mention that some of the people that spearhaeded this outrage campaign are pretty deplorable people, one actively promotes the genocide of men and the other used to promote the genocide of the jewish people, surprised that the developers even took them seriously.

 

Anything that comes as a result of a twitter lynch mob pressuring developers I see it as censorship.

 

 

 

 

 I don't feel misandry is really a thing

 

Here we go. No need to write paragraphs when the heart of the matter are these 8 words you've written.  

 

 

This is deplorable in my opinion

Edited March 30, 2015 by Chaz

[Fenrir007]

How about we focus on something productive, as in a solution to this whole thing? One that will please everyone?

 

1- Raise awareness through the means of a sticky here and on the steam forums about the user-made mod that removes the offending content. That way, people can tailor their own, private experience without interfering with the game of other people;

 

2- Put in a toggle to remove all backer content for those that wish for a more official means of removing it. This has the added bonus of allowing everyone who doesn't want backer content in their game to have their way.

 

Do both and I'm sure no one will have anything else to complain about. Right?

 

Any objections to this?

[exodiark]

I'm still getting over my own transphobia, which typically manifested from a discomfort from the reality that I probably would also freak out if I slept with a woman and she was transgender.

 

Stop hitting yourself. If you're not into inserting **** to transwomen, you're not guilty of transphobia. Male gay people are not guilty of misogyny for not wanting to bone women.

 

In any case I don't see the censorship issue here, especially since trans awareness and sensitivity is still in its infancy meaning even if it wasn't noticed prerelease, doesn't mean Obsidian cannot take the feedback and say "Oh we didn't fully appreciate this."  It's complicated because some transgender individuals won't care, while some do. Not really my place to say they should or should not be offended.  Undoubtedly there's other contributions that were refused because Obsidian didn't feel they were appropriate.

 

Don't be silly, you can never *ever* please everyone, especially professional whiners. They will find something else to whine, and there are few moments of good ol' "forced conceptions" in PoE.

What's more, it's fiction, not reality! No one is harmed! If they don't like it, they can buy something other fictions or write one themselves, not ruining something that other people enjoy.

Edited March 30, 2015 by exodiark

[deuxhero]

If I really REALLY hated transpeople and wanted to everyone to hate them like I do, I honest to God can not think of a better way to do it than enabling the ones who whine about being offended at EVERYTHING while preaching genocide.

 

Can you? Because I can't think of a better way to get everyone to absolutely hate them unconditionally.

[McFeeb]

How about we focus on something productive, as in a solution to this whole thing? One that will please everyone?

 

1- Raise awareness through the means of a sticky here and on the steam forums about the user-made mod that removes the offending content. That way, people can tailor their own, private experience without interfering with the game of other people;

 

2- Put in a toggle to remove all backer content for those that wish for a more official means of removing it. This has the added bonus of allowing everyone who doesn't want backer content in their game to have their way.

 

Do both and I'm sure no one will have anything else to complain about. Right?

 

Any objections to this?

 

 

There is zero point in caving in to the demands of crazy people (#killallmen).

 

It only encourages them to continue their unhealthy lifestyles rather than seeking professional help for their deep seated issues.

[Volourn]

" I don't feel misandry is really a thing"

 

Only an ignorant person would claim such a thing. Misandry exists. This is fact. PERIOD.

[DrTuring]

How about we focus on something productive, as in a solution to this whole thing? One that will please everyone?

 

1- Raise awareness through the means of a sticky here and on the steam forums about the user-made mod that removes the offending content. That way, people can tailor their own, private experience without interfering with the game of other people;

 

2- Put in a toggle to remove all backer content for those that wish for a more official means of removing it. This has the added bonus of allowing everyone who doesn't want backer content in their game to have their way.

 

Do both and I'm sure no one will have anything else to complain about. Right?

 

Any objections to this?

I am all for #2.

 

All that we need is a toggle. The offended can just turn it off, and it gives the added bonus of not having a bunch of Fanfiction.net tier stuff for the rest of us!

 

But not sure about #1. Word of mouth is probably sufficient.

[Matt516]

Oh for the love of god. Chill. Out. It's a rude limerick in a game where you see dozens of corpses hanging from trees on your way to the inn. Grow a thicker skin.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

Oh for the love of god. Chill. Out. It's a rude limerick in a game where you see dozens of corpses hanging from trees on your way to the inn. Grow a thicker skin.

Preaching to the choir. The majority of people on this thread are saying to keep it.

[Zanos]

Not a troll, just a backer expressing her opinion. Transmisogyny is misogyny directed towards trans women, typically because they're trans. The trope of straight dudes crying because they had sex with a woman who "is really a man" (which is itself a transphobic thing) is related to the concept of trans panic. Many trans women face violence at the hands of straight men who feel that they were "deceived" and thus "panicked". Many men have even gotten away with murdering trans women using this trans panic defense. So that little "limerick" is in very bad taste. 

 

"Transmisandry" isn't a thing because misandry isn't a real thing and the discrimination trans men face tends to be related more with homophobia and transphobia in general. 

I've said this multiple times in this thread, but not wanting to have sex with someone because their genitals are different from what you expected does not make you a bigot. Responding with violence is obviously never appropriate, but having physical relations with someone under false pretenses isn't really a good thing to do.

[alanschu]

Here we go. No need to write paragraphs when the heart of the matter are these 8 words you've written. 

 

 

If you feel your life is increasingly difficult because of your status as a man, then that is your prerogative and I'm not here to convince you otherwise.  Yes, I do think that men face less institutionalized issues and that most of them manifest from men.  You asked why it was transmisogyny and I attempted to explain as best I could based on the limited knowledge I have now.  If you feel you're better versed on the topic and that the entirety of my post is invalid because of those 8 words then so be it.

 

Cheers.

Edited March 30, 2015 by alanschu

[Volourn]

"Yes, I do think that men face less institutionalized issues and that most of them manifest from men."

 

Men are more likely to be inprisoned and more harshly than women for the same crimes.

 

Men are  more likely to get screwed over in custody/divorce battles  even when things are 'equal' otherwise.

 

Men are more likely to be sent off to war to die.

 

Men are more likely to be assaulted, abused, raped, and murdered.

 

Men are more likely to commit suicide.

 

Men are less likely to be encouraged to go to school  and their participation in post secondary education is dropping.

 

All of this is because society sees men as nothing but a resource to be used, absued, and thrown out in the trash.

 

But, yeah, misandry ie. hatred of men, doesn't exist.

 

 

HAHAHAHAHA!!!

[Hiro Protagonist II]

 

If you feel your life is increasingly difficult because of your status as a man, then that is your prerogative and I'm not here to convince you otherwise.  Yes, I do think that men face less institutionalized issues and that most of them manifest from men.  You asked why it was transmisogyny and I attempted to explain as best I could based on the limited knowledge I have now.  If you feel you're better versed on the topic and that the entirety of my post is invalid because of those 8 words then so be it.

 

Cheers.

 

Nice misdirection there. This is not about my life, how men are treated or anything like that. But good to see you're true to form and those 8 words you wrote are quite telling. This is about a harmless limerick in a video game.

[Scars Unseen]

 

 

And Obsidian's removed it now, so YAY! No one can think that anymore! No worries! Right? Woohoo! Mission Accomplished!

 

 

That would be truly disappointing if true.  Not because I'm dead set against it being removed.  No, I don't care about that.  But there's the small matter of a character breaking bug that's preventing me from playing the game right now, and I would be down right pissed if Obsidian put this as the higher priority.

 

I don't think this is as much of a PR problem as it seems to us who closely follow the game. Also, I don't think removing this takes any technical effort on Obsidian's part. So I wouldn't be concerned it is affecting bug fixing at all.

 

 

According to the stickied tech support thread on the ProjectEternity subreddit:

 

 

If they can't alter strings, it may not be as easy at it seems it should be to remove the poem.

[Hurlshort]

Who the heck is even reading these memorials?  I stopped after the first few.  Now I just look for people I recognize.  So far Deraldin is the only one I caught.

[Ecto]

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

[Volourn]

Yeah, it is spam that makes the forums look clean in terms of lack of spam. L0L

[McFeeb]

Who the heck is even reading these memorials?  I stopped after the first few.  Now I just look for people I recognize.  So far Deraldin is the only one I caught.

 

 

I'm kind of looking for my name, but I haven't read most of them.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

[Scars Unseen]

 

Just popping in to applaud Obsidian for taking out the joke. I'm having a lot of fun with the game so far, and it makes me happy to know that one of my favorite developers are willing to take a stand against transphobia, even with the huge backlash that inevitably entails from the dudebro crowd.

 

Having a dialogue about content and agreeing to take out problematic content isn't censorship. There's nothing being imposed on Obsidian by force. Good on them for doing the right thing anyway.

Let me be the one to burst your bubble by pointing out Obsidian hasn't removed it, at least not yet.

 

Also, please show me the evidence the memorial WAS transphobic. I can quote it to you, if need be.

 

 

The absence of evidence is not evidence that this thread is going to end any time soon.