Memorials problem.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

That has nothing to do with the current conversation, and you are the only person who brought her into this, exposing her to potential harrasment. Congrats.

Edited March 29, 2015 by AnsFenrisulfr

[Creslin321]

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

 

The only people who have brought "that discussion" up in this thread have been anti "that discussion."

[Darji]

 

 

 

Obsidian was already "censoring" other backer memorials because they didn't fit the world they created. They are now free to decide that this one doesn't even though it slipped through the cracks, and remove it after the game's release. They can ask the backer to write a new one or refund him.

 

And I wonder if you'll call *me* an outsider too, even though I've been here from the start?

 

The difference is that that was BEFORE the game was out. Now the game IS out. People bought the game. And people bought the game expecting all the content offered.

 

 

Most of the people wouldn't even read the backer memorials, so it's not as if a vital part of the game will be removed.

 

This should not matter at all. It is not about the Joke anymore it is about is it ok to remove something some small minority which is putting social pressure  on the artist/developer wants to be removed.

 

And I will always say NO. No matter what. 

[RichardFrost]

I haven't been on the forums since creating this account a year and a half ago. But after hearing about this on the Internet this weekend I knew I needed to sign in specifically to address this. 

 

Let the memorial stand. I don't see the need some people have to eliminate every non-harmonious word and thought from modern media. Some people are going to be intolerant or foolish or stupid or just plain evil. In order to tell meaningful stories you need these people, if nothing else than to be a foil against which the heroes can be compared. There are lots of people in every game, movie, and book doing something offensive or objectionable. Where would we been if we sterilized them all? No princesses getting kidnapped? No bandits roaming the countryside? No devious wizards making infernal pacts for power? We wouldn't have very many interesting stories left. Let's not take even a small part of that away. Let the memorial stand.

[DrTuring]

 

 

 

It seems to me like you really want to be the victim here. And i can define censorship. When you don't want something to exist just because you disagree with it, this is censorship. 

 

 

Merely not wanting something to exist is not censorship. I hate mayonnaise. I want all of it destroyed forever. It's gross. Censorship is when I somehow manage to get it outlawed against the will of the people or when my army of robots (which I totally don't have! *ahem*) somehow enforce my magical anti-mayo will on the world. Obsidian deciding "Hey, let's get rid of this thing?". Not censorship. It's a choice. If the government of California marched down to Irvine and made Obsidian change the game? Censorship.

 

I mean this in the nicest way possible but if you care so much about a thing you need to learn about what it is and isn't.

 

 

Hmm. What if the mayonnaise hater started claiming Obsidian's love of mayonnaise make them horrible unethical people, and raised a protest of a thousand people that marched to California and protested, until Obsidian declares a no-mayo policy just because it would be too much work and public relations disaster to do otherwise? 

 

It might count as censorship or it might not. But if one were to conclude "well it's Obsidian's choice", that's a very unfair definition of 'choice', too. 

 

(I'm not saying that analogy is exactly what is happening now, I'm just saying your current argumenta bout 'let Obsidian choose' is a bit narrow-sighted.)

 

(And as someone who has studied the history of censorship, you know, it's a definition that changes over time, and its boundaries in the U.S. for example has been heavily debated by legal scholars and philosophers throughout its entire history. It's hard to just say "x is censorship y is not, good bye".)

 

It's funny you bring that up. One of the developers of Divinity: Original Sin had said something akin to that in an interview. He said something akin to "If a mob group came into your resturaunt, and demanded that you stop selling a certain type of food 'or else', it's still your choice. But the choice WAS influenced."

[Arouet]

 

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

 

The only people who have brought "that discussion" up in this thread have been anti "that discussion."

 

Do me a favor and count how many times the word 'SJW' has been spoken in this thread. It's worthy of KiA.

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[Badmojo]

So here is a question to Obsidian.  Regardless of their choice, what will they do the next time someone is offended by something?  Give in?  And the time after that?  Give in?  Because it will be coming, these groups are never satisfied and if you give in once, they smell blood and come back even harder next time. 

[Creslin321]

 

 

It's definitely censorship, but I think the flawed assumption here is that all censorship is "bad."

 

For example, I'm pretty sure that just about any major website would not allow the KKK to write articles for them.  Is this censorship?  Probably.  Is it "bad?"  Definitely not.

 

 

While I actually am personally pretty much wholly against censorship in virtually any form, I do agree that people should feel free to challenge the notion that censorship is always bad. Ironically, treating "censorship" as some magical thing one must agree is evil is ITSELF censorship.

 

That being said, the reason I am against it is that people are ultimately pretty stupid.  Throughout history, we've always been wrong about pretty important things, and it's complete hubris to think we aren't wrong about important things now.  There are always going to be uncouth, "unacceptable" thoughts that are, in fact, actually correct.  In the future, people will look back at us in disbelief that we were so certain of our virtue in believing X, when Y was actually obviously true all along.

 

The kind of mob-based censorship we're seeing lately is predicated on the assumption that we've got it all figured out.  In some cases, some of the stuff that we've supposedly got all figured out is incredibly, impossibly complex.  It needs to be ok to talk about these things, because we are inevitably wrong about lots of them.

 

 

Oh I completely agree with you.  I am definitely on the "leave it in" camp here.  I just saw people arguing back and forth trying to show that this is and isn't censorship, so I wanted to put out there that they are arguing in the wrong direction.

 

This is definitely censorship, the argument is whether the censorship in this case is justified.  And like you, I would say it is not justified.

[AnsFenrisulfr]

As someone who is planning to buy the game as soon as I get my paycheck, and who finds the joke tasteless and purile. Keep it in.

Yes, keep it in. The joke is stupid, but even when I asked my trans ex, 2 of my trans friends, and several non-trans individuals. All said it was a non-issue. Stupid, yes, but a non-issue.

Edited March 29, 2015 by AnsFenrisulfr

[licketysplit]

This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.

 

Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.

How do know they don't want the joke in the game? Explain to me why bigotry in the game's world, a fantasy construct, should affect you.

[arleas]

I certainly hope that Obsidian doesn't cave to the pressure.  Especially to cave to people who are not even the core audience for their game.  If anything, make an optional patch and let them download it to remove it.  I backed "Pillars of Eternity", not "Pillars of Eternity* *subject to SJW approval*" 

 

Also the tweets that @icequeenerika woman has made don't exactly make her seem the most sane person in the bunch. 

[Ausir]

Personally, I think Obsidian should have asked the backers to make the memorials consistent with the setting in the first place. But then again, they probably had too much work on the game itself to check them all, e-mail everyone to change theirs etc.

[Arouet]

 

This thread has caused my opinion of the intelligence of the average Obsidian "fan" on these forums to plummet.

 

Seriously, if you can't handle a developer not wanting a bigoted joke in their game, I'll provide you with a free tiny violin before the door hits you on your ass on the way out.

How do know they don't want the joke in the game? Explain to me why bigotry in the game's world, a fantasy construct, should affect you.

 

Explain to me why pulling a dumb joke offends you so much.

 

Over and over again, this is what I hear: "They can't do that to our pledges! Only we can do that to our pledges!"

Edited March 29, 2015 by Arouet

[Darji]

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

This makes your whole position really laughable. I hope you know this. 

[Creslin321]

 

 

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

 

The only people who have brought "that discussion" up in this thread have been anti "that discussion."

 

Do me a favor and count how many times the word 'SJW' has been spoken in this thread. It's worthy of KiA.

 

 

That term existed long before what you are referring to.  And really, sometimes I'm tempted to use it myself.

 

Not because I want to be derogatory, but just because I want a word to refer to the far-left authoritarian crowd that normally pushes for things like this.

 

What is a less offensive term for them?  Would progressive work?

[casa]

In a climate where not even a mild joke (we're not even sure who's the victim in) provokes such an outcry, art is impossible. I want extremists stay out of my game. It's not about the joke anymore, it's about extremists demanding things and companies going out of their way to please them, and that's the only reason I don't want Obsidian to pull it. I hate Gamergate, I hate extreme SJWs, can't you all just shut up and get offended by things that are really worth it? Or just, on both sides, get a little sense of humor, don't take yourself too seriously and have a little laugh on your own expense, I do that every day. Read some jewish jokes, they're actually good about making jokes at their own expense. 

[Revisor]

Yet another voice in support of Obsidian. Please don't give in to these perpetually offended people.

Nothing you'll do will satisfy them. They'll just find another character, another line, quote it out of context, misinterpret it in bad faith and complain about the offense of the day.

[Envy]

The politically correct left really is the new religious right.

 

My humble advice as a backer and longtime Obsidian supporter? Ignore the nutters on both sides because once you cave either way there is no going back.

[Darji]

Personally, I think Obsidian should have asked the backers to make the memorials consistent with the setting in the first place. But then again, they probably had too much work on the game itself to check them all, e-mail everyone to change theirs etc.

How does this not fit into the game?  The person who died was a stupid person which was made fun of.

 

How does this not fit into a world full of rape, murder, homophobia etc? It fits perfectly in this cruel and harsh world the game is set in. Again. It also could have been a song of a jester or bard playing in a tavern. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by Darji

[Arouet]

 

 

 

Outrage culture is getting reaaal old about now.

 

"Nice game you've got there. It would be a shame if someone came along and called you transphobic."

 

Please, please don't cave to this ridiculous request, as it is only the beginning. They're just feeling you out right now. These people are not noble champions of much of anything, and the backgrounds of e.g. the two Twitter-people trying to initially stir this up are... Well. Extensive and verifiable if anyone is actually wondering whether engaging with / catering to them is a good idea.

 

Yes, the fact that someone that actively promotes genocide and someone that was a former neo-nazi got the ear of Obsidian so easily is pretty disturbing, the minimum background check should reveal this, the fact that veteran game developers with 20-30 years of experience in the industry bow down to the wishes of these people are clearly crazy (and yes promoting genocide is crazy) is pretty telling, these demands should have been dismissed immediately after people saw where they coming from.

 

I'm looking forward to when this thread progresses to its natural conclusion and consists entirely of speculation over Zoe Quinn's sex life.

 

This makes your whole position really laughable. I hope you know this. 

 

It really doesn't. Should the line be pulled? This is the question. Instead we think the main issue is running background checks on the people who first noticed it.

[Sakai]

If that's your arguement, just know that none of you are allowed to demand a refund or try put pressure on Obsidian in this thread in any way.

I have no problem with people expressing their opinions. And that's what people are mainly doing in this thread. Discussion is good. But people who started this thing aren't interested in a discussion. TB made a few completely reasobable and calm points and how they responded? #shuthe****upTotalBiscuit Now that's what i have a big issue with. Do you see the difference?

Edited March 29, 2015 by Sakai

[AnsFenrisulfr]

I certainly hope that Obsidian doesn't cave to the pressure.  Especially to cave to people who are not even the core audience for their game.  If anything, make an optional patch and let them download it to remove it.  I backed "Pillars of Eternity", not "Pillars of Eternity* *subject to SJW approval*" 

 

Also the tweets that @icequeenerika woman has made don't exactly make her seem the most sane person in the bunch. 

Could we not attack the people who pushed this? I know they make easy targets, but Argumentum Ad Hominem only makes the arguments your side makes seem weaker.

[Chaz]

So here is a question to Obsidian.  Regardless of their choice, what will they do the next time someone is offended by something?  Give in?  And the time after that?  Give in?  Because it will be coming, these groups are never satisfied and if you give in once, they smell blood and come back even harder next time. 

 

And believe me they will be offended by something pretty soon, this past week alone I've seem the very same crowd beign offended at Totalbiscuit, beign offended at a cover for a Batgirl comic, and they also had LiongsGate studios delete a few of their tweets because they were deemed offended.

 

Everyone that disagrees is attacked, like I showed with Totalbiscuit and declared a misogynist or transphone and then put in one of those famous blockbots.

[Ausir]

Yet another voice in support of Obsidian. Please don't give in to these perpetually offended people.

Nothing you'll do will satisfy them. They'll just find another character, another line, quote it out of context, misinterpret it in bad faith and complain about the offense of the day.

 

"In support of Obsidian"? The only statement from someone from Obsidian so far has been that "it's hard to catch everything". Personally, I'd let Sawyer decide what fits in his game and what doesn't. I doubt he read most of the backer memorials himself.

[DrTuring]

It really doesn't. Should the line be pulled? This is the question. Instead we think the main issue is running background checks on the people who first noticed it.

 

Well most people here seem to agree that the line shouldn't be pulled. That's been the main issue for everyone but you, honestly.

 

While we talk about the joke, and whether or not it should be kept in, you're saying all this "YOU'RE A GAMERGATER" crap. It's very disengenuous.