Combat Mechanics? Attack Speed, Recovery

[bebeto]

 

Sure-Handed Ila its not multiplicative with general atk speed buffs such frenzy,alacrity etc but its rather additive.

 

If MaxQuest's formula is correct then Sure-Handed Ila is multiplicative with Frenzy or Deleterious Alacrity of Motion (not both, since they don't stack). Look at his formula here.

 

He said it himself,check few post above.Sure-Handed Ila its additive buff for range with general atk speed bonuses wich are indeed multiplicative.Its different category as rate of fire bonus wich means can apply to spell recovery also.

Edited March 14, 2017 by bebeto

[JerekKruger]

He said it himself,check few post above.Sure-Handed Ila its additive buff for range with general atk speed bonuses wich are indeed multiplicative.Its different category as rate of fire bonus wich means can apply to spell recovery also.

 

I can't check a few posts above in the thread I linked, because that's the second post in the thread I linked . Perhaps he said it somewhere in this thread, I'll go looking for it.

 

EDIT: oh wait, my bad, you're right. Each of the blue tabs is a category that is multiplied together, but then each of those categories is added to give the total BLUE_coef. My apologies

Edited March 14, 2017 by JerekKruger

[MaxQuest]

MaxQuest i analyze your formula but something is unclear to me.Your formula for recovery is:

Recovery phase duration=Attack phase duration * max (0,(1-2*speed coef_))/recovery factor

where recovery factor is 1.2

But acording to this tests from this list wich were performed by naked chars meaning speed coef_ being 0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit#gid=1264774515

Lets take dual weilding for example.A naked char with dual weilding stilettos with 10 dex has an attack animation of 20 frames while recovery is 24.Acording to your formula recovery should be 20/1.2  meaning ~16.Shouldnt recovery factor be a multiplier wich would explain the numbers on the list meaning 20*1.2=24?

According to numbers in that spreadsheet, it does indeed appear so.

The good thing is, those numbers are wrong.

 

Just to be sure I have just frapsed a 10-Dex character dual-wielding stilettos:

 

 

132 - start (attack order given)
137 - visible attack start (RH)
142 - hit
158 - visible recovery line start
173 - visible recovery line end

177 - visible attack start (OH)
181 - hit
199 - visible recovery line start
214 - visible recovery line end

219 - visible attack start (RH)
224 - hit
240 - visible recovery line start
255 - visible recovery line end

259 - visible attack start (OH)
263 - hit
281 - visible recovery line start
296 - visible recovery line end

301 - visible attack start (RH)
306 - hit
322 - visible recovery line start
337 - visible recovery line end

341 - visible attack start (OH)
345 - hit
363 - visible recovery line start
378 - visible recovery line end

average action duration = (345 - 142) / 5 = 40.6 frames 
average recovery line: 15 frames
average idle duration: 4.5 frames
average attack duration = 40.6 - 15 - 4.5 = 21.1

 

But the recovery line once it is shown, already appears heavily started. So action is either [4/5 + 20/21 + 15] or [4/5 + 19/20 + 16] delay/att/rec respectively.

There is no way for recovery to be 24 frames.

 

In any case I would advice using values from here: http://i.imgur.com/QqMIkII.png

Because these were logged from the game itself. And frapsing is less exact (especially for quick weapons).

 

0.636s and 1.061s for stilettos would correspond to:

- single_weapon: [4-5 delay + 19 attack_duration + 31.66 recovery_duration]

- dual_wielding: [4-5 delay + 19 attack_duration + 15.83 recovery_duration]

 

P.S. I know exactly, that there is a division by recovery factor (i.e. x/1.2), because that is how it is in the code.

 

Also want to ask u if atk speed bonus that u get from dual weapon passive is multiplicative?Or is additive like in case with sure ila-handed for range?

- There is no speed bonus for attacks made while dual-wielding.

- There is speed penalty for attacks made with single-weapon.

 

That penalty (Single1HWeapRecovFactor) is additive.

You can check how it makes into the formula here.

 

P.S. RateOfFireMult category coefficient is additive with other categories. Thus technically Sure-Handed Ila is multiplicative with Vicious Aim; and additive with everything else.

Edited March 15, 2017 by MaxQuest

[bebeto]

 

MaxQuest i analyze your formula but something is unclear to me.Your formula for recovery is:

Recovery phase duration=Attack phase duration * max (0,(1-2*speed coef_))/recovery factor

where recovery factor is 1.2

But acording to this tests from this list wich were performed by naked chars meaning speed coef_ being 0

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1vDm5MOrCK6S95h5u0EzZbGTv_u_rYqjuO0-zupqk0_A/edit#gid=1264774515

Lets take dual weilding for example.A naked char with dual weilding stilettos with 10 dex has an attack animation of 20 frames while recovery is 24.Acording to your formula recovery should be 20/1.2  meaning ~16.Shouldnt recovery factor be a multiplier wich would explain the numbers on the list meaning 20*1.2=24?

According to numbers in that spreadsheet, it does indeed appear so.

The good thing is, those numbers are wrong.

 

Just to be sure I have just frapsed a 10-Dex character dual-wielding stilettos:

 

 

132 - start (attack order given)
137 - visible attack start (RH)
142 - hit
158 - visible recovery line start
173 - visible recovery line end

177 - visible attack start (OH)
181 - hit
199 - visible recovery line start
214 - visible recovery line end

219 - visible attack start (RH)
224 - hit
240 - visible recovery line start
255 - visible recovery line end

259 - visible attack start (OH)
263 - hit
281 - visible recovery line start
296 - visible recovery line end

301 - visible attack start (RH)
306 - hit
322 - visible recovery line start
337 - visible recovery line end

341 - visible attack start (OH)
345 - hit
363 - visible recovery line start
378 - visible recovery line end

average action duration = (345 - 142) / 5 = 40.6 frames 
average recovery line: 15 frames
average idle duration: 4.5 frames
average attack duration = 40.6 - 15 - 4.5 = 21.1

 

But the recovery line once it is shown, already appears heavily started. So action is either [4/5 + 20/21 + 15] or [4/5 + 19/20 + 16] delay/att/rec respectively.

There is no way for recovery to be 24 frames.

 

In any case I would advice using values from here: http://i.imgur.com/QqMIkII.png

Because these were logged from the game itself. And frapsing is less exact (especially for quick weapons).

 

0.636s and 1.061s for stilettos would correspond to:

- single_weapon: [4-5 delay + 19 attack_duration + 31.66 recovery_duration]

- dual_wielding: [4-5 delay + 19 attack_duration + 15.83 recovery_duration]

 

P.S. I know exactly, that there is a division by recovery factor (i.e. x/1.2), because that is how it is in the code.

 

Also want to ask u if atk speed bonus that u get from dual weapon passive is multiplicative?Or is additive like in case with sure ila-handed for range?

- There is no speed bonus for attacks made while dual-wielding.

- There is speed penalty for attacks made with single-weapon.

 

That penalty (Single1HWeapRecovFactor) is additive.

You can check how it makes into the formula here.

 

P.S. RateOfFireMult category coefficient is additive with other categories. Thus technically Sure-Handed Ila is multiplicative with Vicious Aim; and additive with everything else.

 

OK thanks for your effort that u put into finding this mechanics and for the correct formula,now its more clear.About passive for dual weilding i wasnt clear enough and i think u undestood me wrong,i ment about Two weapon style talent,the one that gives 20 % atk speed.I was just curious how does this apply into formula,is it multiplicative or additive like in sure-handed ila example?Also want to ask u if your recovery formula applies for range weapons such bows/crossbows/wands/firearms as well or perhaps this type of weapon have different recovery factor?

Edited March 15, 2017 by bebeto

[MaxQuest]

Ah, Two-Weapon Style talent. That one belongs to DualWieldAttackSpeedMult category. And since it is the only one from it, it is applied additively with everything else.

 

Also want to ask u if your recovery formula applies for range weapons such bows/crossbows/wands/firearms as well or perhaps this type of weapon have different recovery factor?

It does.

Same recovery factor is used for all (melee and ranged) weapons. It is also used for majority of "regular" spells.

[Hariwulf]

So...what is more DPS?

Is it safe to assume that overall 2 hatchets would outperform 2 swords?

[Boeroer]

Depends - against low-DR-enemies which are not resistant to slash - or if you have means to get a lot of DR bypass or/and you can lower enemies' DR then yes.

 

But against all the other enemies a lot of damage of the hatchets will be eaten up and two swords would outperform hatchets then. Swords have two damage types (this is a huge advantage which is often overlooked) and they have higher base damage (all dmg mods have more impact) and therefore are better when you meet foes with mid to high DR.

 

Hatchets make you more sturdy though. Another advantage which doesn't do anything for direct dps of course.

[Archaven]

Sorry the first page did not explain on how recovery works and there's so many pages and i'm not sure where i can find those information. I'm interested to know how recovery works. I do know that armor has recovery penalty (the heavier armor you are wearing). How about shields? Durance is abit tanky in my team. I have him wearing similar breastplate (-40% recovery). I need him to be a bit beefier so that he don't gets targeted during fights. But i notice the recovery is quite slow when i'm equipping him with a medium shield. Does shields contribute to slower recovery? How about their sizes? Small, Medium and Large shields? If not mistaken the description did not mention about recovery. I tend to use small shields as it has no penalty to ACC.

[Boeroer]

PoE Attack Speed Calculator: https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

 

Explained: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum

[Archaven]

PoE Attack Speed Calculator: https://naijaro.github.io/poe-speed-calculator/

 

Explained: https://forums.obsidian.net/topic/86684-mechanics-the-big-attack-speed-conundrum

 

Does that mean if i want protection of a shield for Priest/Wizard and still want them to cast spell quickly, i'll use a dagger instead? Also the size of the shield doesn't matter? Perhaps my question isn't clearly put out. Does attack recovery the same with casting recovery?

[MaxQuest]

Does that mean if i want protection of a shield for Priest/Wizard and still want them to cast spell quickly, i'll use a dagger instead?

Your shields and weapons (aside from Spelltongue, which places a buff) have no effect upon your recovery_duration after casting a spell.

 

Although, they do affect their own recovery, so in a way yes: if you are not at zero recovery, you will be able to start casting a spell slightly earlier if you just made an attack with dagger in comparison to: if you just made an attack with a sword.

 

Also the size of the shield doesn't matter?

It doesn't matter.

Shield size influences only the accuracy penalty, and the value of reflex bonus you get from 1H&Shield talent.

 

Does attack recovery the same with casting recovery?

Yes and no.

Calculation of recovery_duration after casting a spell, follows the same general rules.

Currently you can select dual-fists, and (with VA and TWS off) get an estimation of how does your casting and casting_recovery durations do change proportionally.

 

I.e. you can estimate the relative change. But for absolute change estimation you need to keep in mind that the base values (for fists and spells) are different.

Specifically:

- dw fists: 20 frames attack + 16.66 recovery duration

- usual fast spell: 35 + 29

- usual average spell: 60 + 50

- usual slow spell: 120 + 100

- unusual fast spell: 84 + 8 (eyestrike, whispers of treason)

- unusual slow spell: 143 + 8 (ringleader)

 

 

P.S. wizard in durganized scale armor + gauntlets of Swift Action + DAoM potion/spell can cast with no recovery, no matter what shield or weapon he has equipped.

Edited October 16, 2017 by MaxQuest