One thing I hated about the LS/DS issues in KOTOR

[Opus131]

Also until the movie comes out anything can be changed. Unless Lucas himself says it. And even then there's a good chance he might still change it. It is also irrelevant so who cares?

Er..., you know, the less you listen to George Lucas, the better off the Star War universe seems to be...

[Shdy314]

Ok, we're getting way to serious with the Star Wars mythology here, from a game-mechanical reasons i disagree with having "the choice". Simple cause and consequense.

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore.

Again, i guess i'm not into SW enough to care about the lure of the darkside all the time. My judgement was strictly based on that when you're playing an RPG, there should be a time when you "suffer" from your choices you done in the past, this shouldn't be restricted to SW universe but to games in general.

Ok then. But for us people that bought KOTOR because it is the first SW RPG you can see how we'd like the universe to work the way we have always seen it work? Anyways how is forcing an LS or DS character on the rooftop to remain true to their alignment suffering? Your character was Revan. I find it hard to believe being offered everything he had lost and vengeance against his would be killer as something not at all tempting to even the nicest Jedi. Perhaps it is enough to pull the old Revan back and wipe out all that Jedi Mind control business.

[newc0253]

And about the Vader saving Luke issue. The reason for that is cause he was destined to do that, bring balance to the force.

LOL.

 

here you are trying to argue against the defining moment of Vader's redemption by saying what? that he had no choice in the matter?

 

if Vader's didn't have a choice, then his act would have been as meaningless as killing the emperor by accident.

 

but i admire your obstinance in the face of the blindingly obvious.

 

the force slider in SW is fine as a general concept, but too many newbs make the mistake of thinking of it as another D&D-style alignment slider - another game device that cripples roleplay.

[Meshugger]

Ok, we're getting way to serious with the Star Wars mythology here, from a game-mechanical reasons i disagree with having "the choice". Simple cause and consequense.

Uh Hello. KOTOR is a game set in the SW universe. That means it has the same rules that have been established in a million and one sources. Otherwise it isn't SW anymore.

Again, i guess i'm not into SW enough to care about the lure of the darkside all the time. My judgement was strictly based on that when you're playing an RPG, there should be a time when you "suffer" from your choices you done in the past, this shouldn't be restricted to SW universe but to games in general.

Ok then. But for us people that bought KOTOR because it is the first SW RPG you can see how we'd like the universe to work the way we have always seen it work? Anyways how is forcing an LS or DS character on the rooftop to remain true to their alignment suffering? Your character was Revan. I find it hard to believe being offered everything he had lost and vengeance against his would be killer as something not at all tempting to even the nicest Jedi. Perhaps it is enough to pull the old Revan back and wipe out all that Jedi Mind control business.

Fair enough, with my ignorance to the rules of the SW universe, i think we'd better leave it here

[Darque]

See, you can't answer the question cause you know that what we were told isn't true.

 

From LucasArts.com:

 

Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi.

 

It said actions as in ALL the choices you make in the game. Not action which means that one action on top of that roof.

Actually "actionS" is just the plural form of "action". Which means 2 or more.

 

It could simply come down to 2 in game actions to determine the ending.

 

Besides, as language is used, that could even mean one action, given the context.

[Azarkon]

Tyrell, part of what you say makes good sense, and part of it is bad logic. Let me attempt to separate the part that makes sense from the part that doesn't.

 

Your basic point, as I understand it, is that you want your past choices to matter. After all, what's the point of making choices, if those choices all lead up to the same thing and you can basically undo them with a single choice 3/4th of the way into the game? The answer is that they don't, and that's why Bioware failed in this aspect of the game. This is the part that makes good sense.

 

The part that doesn't make good sense is that in order to achieve this, you advocate taking choices away from players. Your idea is to make it so that players must deal with their choices by no longer choosing. This is ridiculous, because it's contradictory. You should always be allowed the option of choices in a game where choices matter, and those choices should include, ultimately, the choice to choose against what you've previously chosen.

 

Given this, I should say that it *is* possible to advance the part that makes good sense without falling back on the part that doesn't.

 

Imagine, for instance, that you were allowed to choose LS for yourself in KOTOR at the very end, but that the outcome of that choice differed based on your actions in the past. If you were a pure and good LS, that choice would have made you a celebrated hero, the ultimate champion of Jedi principles, and a respected, even worshipped, figure at the end of the story. All of your LS-aligned group members would have praised and respected you for your seemingly unshakeable virtue, and all traces of your past actions as Revan would've been forgotten.

 

If you were, on the other hand, a DS who chose to go LS at the final, deciding moment, you would get a different ending. Instead of being the ultimate hero and champion of Jedi principles, you would've been the one who was "redeemed" at the very end, who demonstrated that the nature of a man can be changed. You would not be worshipped or held up as a great hero, but as a troubled, tragic anit-hero whose deeds few noticed, but all felt. Your group members, and others in the know, would remain dubious of your decision; some would attempt to, and maybe even succeed in, seeing your true goodness. Others might feel that you are nothing but a liar, and that you will always be a turncoat who could never be trusted. The universe would not see you as a completely changed man who had no links with the Revan of the past, but a continuation of that persona who must always be watched, lest the DS takes him again.

 

Now imagine the same kind of dynamics with the DS option at the end, and you will have essentially achieved your goal of making choices made in the past matter, without denying players of that final, game-changing choice.

 

Personally, I think that is what developers should be striving for: to give the player choices, and to make those choices matter through imbuing each choice, however small, with a consequence.

[Shdy314]

Great point. (To darque's post.)

[Shdy314]

Personally, I think that is what developers should be striving for: to give the player choices, and to make those choices matter through imbuing each choice, however small, with a consequence.

This makes me think of the slideshow ending of FO2 and is a great idea.

[Darque]

Thanks

[kefka]

the only problem I had with the 'choice' is that it came way too late to make a difference. hell, all you can do here is make your fateful choice then rush off to face malak on the star forge. I felt slightly cheated. you can kill Mission, sure, but that's scant consolation. It should have happened not long after the revelation.

[Shdy314]

the only problem I had with the 'choice' is that it came way too late to make a difference. hell, all you can do here is make your fateful choice then rush off to face malak on the star forge. I felt slightly cheated. you can kill Mission, sure, but that's scant consolation. It should have happened not long after the revelation.

You can't have a choice early in the game that locks you in as only good or evil. The themes of falling and redemption are very big in star wars. Making LS Jedi immune to the dark side is incredibly inconsistent with those themes and what we know of the force.

[kefka]

You can't have a choice early in the game that locks you in as only good or evil.

I didn't say 'early in the game', I said not long after the revelation, which is not exactly 'early' since there's only one more star map to find - then it's off to the Rakata homeworld. But I understand your point about falling/redemption - however, as that usually relies on a single decision, it's never a gradual process at all. It can happen anytime. So why not at a time when it still matters from a gaming perspective?

[Gorth]

You can't have a choice early in the game that locks you in as only good or evil. The themes of falling and redemption are very big in star wars. Making LS Jedi immune to the dark side is incredibly inconsistent with those themes and what we know of the force.

Yes and no.

 

Falling is a big theme, so is temptation. Redemption less so, unless acknowledging a lot of the godawful paperback books. Having not seen Episode III, the only redemption that I can remember from top of my head was Vader/Anakin in Episode VI, and that was post-mortem. As for Kotor, the game gave you free hands without suffering any real consequences before the "endgame" starts. Normally you would expect people to have a personality that slowly moves in one or the other direction on the LS/DS scale, not doing acrobatic stunts. It appeared as if the designers were afraid of forcing the player to take a stand and face the consequences of moral decisions too early in the game (nobody ever blamed Kotor of being a hard/difficult game). They could have done it a bit more elegantly, simply by removing that silly choice on the temple top. Only thing you really should have been able to decide at that point was whether you wanted Bastila as an ally or an enemy... Your party members would (should) have observed your previous actions and made their stand against or approval of (Mission, Carth, Jolee etc.) you long before the temple, and acted upon it. As it is, it simply feels artificial. The game had a decent story, but was definitely more about reaching the Starforge and confronting Malak than about complex ethics and moral behaviour.

[Eagle]

From the films there weren't exactly many dark Jedi to turn back...so half of them being returned to the lightside isn't bad.

 

If we are talking the EU, an absolutely ENORMOUS amount were redeemed.

 

I liked the way Jedi Knight 1 did it. All the choices you made up to that point made the decision for you. If you were slightly more DS than LS then you went DS...etc. But in an rpg, that isn't as good.

[Gorth]

From the films there weren't exactly many dark Jedi to turn back...so half of them being returned to the lightside isn't bad.

 

EU, thats the Expanded Universe I've heard people mention before ?

 

Is that some kind of expansion to the D20 rules, or is it something completely different ?

[Handir]

From the films there weren't exactly many dark Jedi to turn back...so half of them being returned to the lightside isn't bad.

 

EU, thats the Expanded Universe I've heard people mention before ?

 

Is that some kind of expansion to the D20 rules, or is it something completely different ?

The EU is a continuation of the Star Wars Saga, there are books, comics and games that tell you stories that take place after the fall of the Empire and so on...

 

I've never read any of the books (played the games though ) but you can check the starwars databank for more info about this. Star Wars Databank

[Tyrell]

See, you can't answer the question cause you know that what we were told isn't true.

 

From LucasArts.com:

 

Engage in this saga set in the Golden Age of the Republic - over 4,000 years before the first Star Wars film, when both Jedi and Sith number in the thousands. With the Galaxy reeling from a recent conflict with the Dark Lords, the ongoing battle between the Jedi and the Sith rages on. Your actions determine the outcome of this colossal galactic war - and your destiny as a Jedi.

 

It said actions as in ALL the choices you make in the game. Not action which means that one action on top of that roof.

Actually "actionS" is just the plural form of "action". Which means 2 or more.

 

It could simply come down to 2 in game actions to determine the ending.

 

Besides, as language is used, that could even mean one action, given the context.

Don't try to find some cheap way to get out of this. When they meant actions they meant the decisions you make in the game, not one final decision. You are just trying to look too much into it to find a way to find me wrong.

 

Also about the EP3 Spoiler thing, how can it be changed? It is already filmed!

 

Guys, I don't want to come off as some guy that everyone hates. I loved KOTOR as much as everyone here. I'll also go even further to say that I'm probably the biggest SW fan in this forum. I've worked for Theforce.net since 1997, and since then I've been to Star Wars Celebration I & II conventions and has purchased every SW title since Shadows of the Empire on the N64. The only two SW titles that I don't have is Galaxies and Jedi Academy.

 

I'm not bashing KOTOR at all, I'm just pointing out a issue that I didn't like.

 

I'm just letting everyone know this before everyone starts to hate me cause of one thread.

[Tyrell]

Tyrell, part of what you say makes good sense, and part of it is bad logic. Let me attempt to separate the part that makes sense from the part that doesn't.

 

Your basic point, as I understand it, is that you want your past choices to matter. After all, what's the point of making choices, if those choices all lead up to the same thing and you can basically undo them with a single choice 3/4th of the way into the game? The answer is that they don't, and that's why Bioware failed in this aspect of the game. This is the part that makes good sense.

 

So Shdy314, do you like that new ending or still likes the way Bioware did it?

 

The part that doesn't make good sense is that in order to achieve this, you advocate taking choices away from players. Your idea is to make it so that players must deal with their choices by no longer choosing. This is ridiculous, because it's contradictory. You should always be allowed the option of choices in a game where choices matter, and those choices should include, ultimately, the choice to choose against what you've previously chosen.

 

Given this, I should say that it *is* possible to advance the part that makes good sense without falling back on the part that doesn't.

 

Imagine, for instance, that you were allowed to choose LS for yourself in KOTOR at the very end, but that the outcome of that choice differed based on your actions in the past. If you were a pure and good LS, that choice would have made you a celebrated hero, the ultimate champion of Jedi principles, and a respected, even worshipped, figure at the end of the story. All of your LS-aligned group members would have praised and respected you for your seemingly unshakeable virtue, and all traces of your past actions as Revan would've been forgotten.

 

If you were, on the other hand, a DS who chose to go LS at the final, deciding moment, you would get a different ending. Instead of being the ultimate hero and champion of Jedi principles, you would've been the one who was "redeemed" at the very end, who demonstrated that the nature of a man can be changed. You would not be worshipped or held up as a great hero, but as a troubled, tragic anit-hero whose deeds few noticed, but all felt. Your group members, and others in the know, would remain dubious of your decision; some would attempt to, and maybe even succeed in, seeing your true goodness. Others might feel that you are nothing but a liar, and that you will always be a turncoat who could never be trusted. The universe would not see you as a completely changed man who had no links with the Revan of the past, but a continuation of that persona who must always be watched, lest the DS takes him again.

 

Now imagine the same kind of dynamics with the DS option at the end, and you will have essentially achieved your goal of making choices made in the past matter, without denying players of that final, game-changing choice.

 

Personally, I think that is what developers should be striving for: to give the player choices, and to make those choices matter through imbuing each choice, however small, with a consequence.

Now that is an idea I like:

 

If you were LS the whole game and picked the LS ending, then you would be the hero and saviour etc....

 

If you were LS the whole game and picked the DS ending, then you would be known as Revan again but all the Sith wouldn't see you as the true Sith Lord and you'll probably end up being Bastila's apprentice at the end while she be the Sith Lord.

 

If you were DS the whole game and picked the DS ending, you would be the Sith Lord with Bastila at your side.

 

If you were DS the whole game and picked the LS ending, then like you said, you'll just be seen as a "redeemed" person rather then a pure hero and savior.

 

Even though the fate of the galaxy is STILL determined on the roof-top. Atleast the outcome and how the ending will be would be somewhat changed because of.....the choices you made earlier in the game.

 

But Bioware didn't offer anything like that. The fate of the galaxy was determined on the roof-top and what you did earlier in the game had no effect on anything after-wards, just that conversation on the roof-top. Whereas how you had it, atleast what you did in the past has somewhat an effect on events afterwards.

[Shdy314]

Man you just don't get it. There is always a defining moment in books and games. A moment of truth as it were where things can go either way. Vader killing the Emperor after 20 years of doing evil is an example of that. Or Luke having the option to slay Vader and become the Emperor's apprentice. In KOTOR this is the temple rooftop. It's just that normally the good hero resists the temptation and continues on the story slaying the evil yadda yadda yadda. However in KOTOR sometimes people chose to make that their moment to finally fall to the dark side. Why do you care so much? It's their game. Let them play it how they want and you play yours how you want. It's comepletely optional and doesn't penalize you at all for remaining true to your character. If you are a super LS Jedi and you think it is stupid don't choose to ally with Bastila. I personally had a more neutral Jedi who was deeply conflicted after the revelation and remembering more and more of his past and this is when he finally had to choose which side he was on. It's so simple. You're complaining about something you aren't forced to do and aren't penalized for. Anyways the final choice being reflected in the ending is a good idea and should solve the problem you have with it while leaving it open for people like me. So discussion over.

[Tyrell]

I'm complaing that Bioware said that the fate of the galaxy was determined by the actions you made in the game and that certainly wasn't true.

 

Thats what I'm mad about. They made me believe that the things I did on Taris/Dantooine/Kasykkk(sp?)/Manaan/Korriban determined the fate of the world.

[Karzak]

I'm complaing that Bioware said that the fate of the galaxy was determined by the actions you made in the game and that certainly wasn't true.

 

Thats what I'm mad about. They made me believe that the things I did on Taris/Dantooine/Kasykkk(sp?)/Manaan/Korriban determined the fate of the world.

You know it's just a game, right?

[Shdy314]

I'm complaing that Bioware said that the fate of the galaxy was determined by the actions you made in the game and that certainly wasn't true.

 

Thats what I'm mad about. They made me believe that the things I did on Taris/Dantooine/Kasykkk(sp?)/Manaan/Korriban determined the fate of the world.

But they do IF you roleplay. If for no reason you just decide to go evil at that point then yeah it feels a bit cheap. If for example you go through with a conflicted character straddling good and evil this is the moment of truth where you decide if you're going to be Revan again or someone else. Just choose the dialogue that fits for you. And let other's choose the dialogue that fits for them. When you're roleplaying all your character has done makes who they are. Which chooses how they will decide on the temple rooftop.

[Tyrell]

I'm complaing that Bioware said that the fate of the galaxy was determined by the actions you made in the game and that certainly wasn't true.

 

Thats what I'm mad about. They made me believe that the things I did on Taris/Dantooine/Kasykkk(sp?)/Manaan/Korriban determined the fate of the world.

You know it's just a game, right?

I do know its just a game but I have the right to voice my opinion.

[AlanC9]

But they do IF you roleplay. If for no reason you just decide to go evil at that point then yeah it feels a bit cheap. If for example you go through with a conflicted character straddling good and evil this is the moment of truth where you decide if you're going to be Revan again or someone else. Just choose the dialogue that fits for you. And let other's choose the dialogue that fits for them. When you're roleplaying all your character has done makes who they are. Which chooses how they will decide on the temple rooftop.

But if you're roleplaying, Tyrell's proposal makes sense. If you are playing a conflicted character, you'd get both options. If you're playing a pure good character, the evil options simply don't occur to you.

 

The problem is, that's not how evil works in SW. If it was any other genre, I'd say the idea has some merit - let folks work their way up to pure evil or pure good. Or not. But that's just not right for a Star Wars game.

[Shdy314]

But they do IF you roleplay. If for no reason you just decide to go evil at that point then yeah it feels a bit cheap. If for example you go through with a conflicted character straddling good and evil this is the moment of truth where you decide if you're going to be Revan again or someone else. Just choose the dialogue that fits for you. And let other's choose the dialogue that fits for them. When you're roleplaying all your character has done makes who they are. Which chooses how they will decide on the temple rooftop.

But if you're roleplaying, Tyrell's proposal makes sense. If you are playing a conflicted character, you'd get both options. If you're playing a pure good character, the evil options simply don't occur to you.

 

The problem is, that's not how evil works in SW. If it was any other genre, I'd say the idea has some merit - let folks work their way up to pure evil or pure good. Or not. But that's just not right for a Star Wars game.

Saying evil options don't even OCCUR to your character because he is a saint is stupid in any game setting. especially in SW(as you pointed out) But is NOT ROLEPLAYING in the slightest. Oh ok so my character has no human emotions/thoughts/etc. he is just a goody two shoes paladin type with no depth that cannot even conceive of an evil act is what Tyrell's idea means. This is dumb. I consider myself a good guy. Not a saint but a good guy at the least. Doesn't mean I never get the urge to punch someone or yell. And sometimes I do yell and I have been in fights. People are not 2d. Playing your character in an RPG and then all of sudden finding out no matter what your character is now a 2d goody two shoes is dumb. People complain about Malak's shallowness and then want to be forced into a specific role with no control over their character. Now that's shallow.

 

Roleplaying a good character means choosing to be good even when you are constantly tempted to be evil.