Press Release Version of Eder's, Aloth's, Kana's, & Durance's Attribute Spread

[Katarack21]

I was just pointing out where I got my wrong information from, not trying to argue with y'all. Geez.

[Elerond]

Perception give currently bonuses to deflection and interrupt. 

Perception is good for tank builds, but it also works for support builds, as it gives character ability lower damage potential of the enemies, by slowing down their actions. 

[Katarack21]

Sucks that perception is effectively worthless, because that description also says it's what you use to catch people lying. My cipher plan is now a little less awesome than I wanted unless I pick up a stat that is essentially useless. Yay.

[Polanski]

Looks like interesting characters. I am especially exited to see how Durance's 19 Res is shown in his character.

I was hoping Kana had a more tanky build. It does seem like Durance has a bit tanky stats. Can a priest be frontline in PoE?

[Elerond]

Sucks that perception is effectively worthless, because that description also says it's what you use to catch people lying. My cipher plan is now a little less awesome than I wanted unless I pick up a stat that is essentially useless. Yay.

 

It is not worthless, it is actually one most useful attributes to boost in character creation for many builds. 

 

This is because high deflection means that enemies have harder time to hit and crit your character. 

 

Perception works also for some cipher builds, like mind control focused support-tank. Who specializes in debuffs, mind control spells and their ability stand in front line hacking enemies to generate focus (of course this is not most efficient build for cipher, but it is quite fun).

 

In my opinion people should test more fun builds (builds that try to do strange gimmicks) instead of focusing ability to end fights fast as possible, because then they could find new funner (at least it has been such for me) aspect of PoE's fights.

[Katarack21]

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the story and dialogue than the combat; fun combat is a bonus for me, not the focus. My complaint is that a stat that isn't very good for combat is a stat that I would want to take for dialogue, thus making the combat potentially more difficult--which is not cool, because I'm not a particularly strategic or tactical person and the combat in games like this has always been somewhat difficult for me.

[Luckmann]

 

Sucks that perception is effectively worthless, because that description also says it's what you use to catch people lying. My cipher plan is now a little less awesome than I wanted unless I pick up a stat that is essentially useless. Yay.

 

It is not worthless, it is actually one most useful attributes to boost in character creation for many builds. 

 

This is because high deflection means that enemies have harder time to hit and crit your character. 

 

Perception works also for some cipher builds, like mind control focused support-tank. Who specializes in debuffs, mind control spells and their ability stand in front line hacking enemies to generate focus (of course this is not most efficient build for cipher, but it is quite fun).

 

In my opinion people should test more fun builds (builds that try to do strange gimmicks) instead of focusing ability to end fights fast as possible, because then they could find new funner (at least it has been such for me) aspect of PoE's fights.

 

 

The problem (in so far that it's actually a problem at least) is that the system favours specialization. Unless you are specifically stacking, for example, Deflection, it's effect will be relatively small as the Accuracy of the opponents increases.

 

I enjoy gimmick-y builds, myself, I really do, but in some cases (such as Aloth's) it's really not about gimmicky builds. It's that, using this case as an example, it really isn't all that gimmick-y. Gimmick-y builds would be feasible if the Attributes supported it, like having specialized builds that doesn't do things necessarily worse, just differently than someone else.

 

Such as if Perception still added Range and Accuracy (which isn't something I necessarily support) or if Intellect wasn't such a consolidated caster stat, you'd maybe actually end up with a Wizard that could strike hard, far, and accurate (Max MIG and PER) but actually had terrible duration on their abilities (shallow INT).

 

As it currently is, PER isn't gimmicky for a Wizard, it's bad. Utterly worthless.

 

It's still possible to play the game, it's not like Aloth is complete and utterly worthless because he's sub-optimal. But the issue with Attributes can't be excused with "Eh, the game can still be completed with ****ty stats".

 

I want to have balanced attributes because I want to be able to build wacky things, including the low-PER Ranger and the high-INT Barbarian.

[Gorbag]

Kana's got a nice all-around build, the way I'd expect a bard to look (low dex looks a bit odd for a bard though). So far I like his sheet the most. Eder looks like your typical 2nd ed fighter, fat on damage, health and little else. Put him in heavy armour and he is ready to go. Aloth's attributes mirror Eder's but he kinda-sorta forgot how to deal damage. Dropping AoEs to interrupt people could be fun, but without any real punch he'll remain a tricky character to play. Be sure to stack some beefcakes and take regular naps in Fridge Largemeat's tavern.

[Elerond]

 

 

Sucks that perception is effectively worthless, because that description also says it's what you use to catch people lying. My cipher plan is now a little less awesome than I wanted unless I pick up a stat that is essentially useless. Yay.

 

It is not worthless, it is actually one most useful attributes to boost in character creation for many builds. 

 

This is because high deflection means that enemies have harder time to hit and crit your character. 

 

Perception works also for some cipher builds, like mind control focused support-tank. Who specializes in debuffs, mind control spells and their ability stand in front line hacking enemies to generate focus (of course this is not most efficient build for cipher, but it is quite fun).

 

In my opinion people should test more fun builds (builds that try to do strange gimmicks) instead of focusing ability to end fights fast as possible, because then they could find new funner (at least it has been such for me) aspect of PoE's fights.

 

 

The problem (in so far that it's actually a problem at least) is that the system favours specialization. Unless you are specifically stacking, for example, Deflection, it's effect will be relatively small as the Accuracy of the opponents increases.

 

I enjoy gimmick-y builds, myself, I really do, but in some cases (such as Aloth's) it's really not about gimmicky builds. It's that, using this case as an example, it really isn't all that gimmick-y. Gimmick-y builds would be feasible if the Attributes supported it, like having specialized builds that doesn't do things necessarily worse, just differently than someone else.

 

Such as if Perception still added Range and Accuracy (which isn't something I necessarily support) or if Intellect wasn't such a consolidated caster stat, you'd maybe actually end up with a Wizard that could strike hard, far, and accurate (Max MIG and PER) but actually had terrible duration on their abilities (shallow INT).

 

As it currently is, PER isn't gimmicky for a Wizard, it's bad. Utterly worthless.

 

It's still possible to play the game, it's not like Aloth is complete and utterly worthless because he's sub-optimal. But the issue with Attributes can't be excused with "Eh, the game can still be completed with ****ty stats".

 

I want to have balanced attributes because I want to be able to build wacky things, including the low-PER Ranger and the high-INT Barbarian.

 

 

It is not worthless as it allows you to make Aloth a tanky front line wizard that uses those self buff, cone and melee spells. It also gives him ability slow enemies down with his attacks and spells as he can interrupt enemies, this works if you use him in more support role. 

[Azmodiuz]

I was just pointing out where I got my wrong information from, not trying to argue with y'all. Geez.

HEY! the wiki is OLD information, OKAY?! Now settle down ! XD

 

It is not worthless as it allows you to make Aloth a tanky front line wizard that uses those self buff, cone and melee spells. It also gives him ability slow enemies down with his attacks and spells as he can interrupt enemies, this works if you use him in more support role. 

 

 I have a feeling the first real death my team will experience is Aloth being critically gibbed past his health pool and endurance while he's trying to cast one of those cheap mage spells that requires to you be like 2m from the target. I really like how in PoE you can just simply die. no resurrection . 

Edited March 23, 2015 by Azmodiuz

[Luckmann]

It is not worthless as it allows you to make Aloth a tanky front line wizard that uses those self buff, cone and melee spells. It also gives him ability slow enemies down with his attacks and spells as he can interrupt enemies, this works if you use him in more support role.

Except as I said, unless you build for tankyness, it doesn't really contribute in a meaningful way at all, the PER Alone is an abysmal contribution to his potential survivability. Also, as a Wizard (with a CON of 10 no less) he's got the Endurance/Health pool of a snowflake. Slap heavy armour on him and take Talents to support his tankyness, he's going to up his survivability and make at least some use of that PER, but at that point he'll be a terrible, terrible Wizard due to the enormous action recovery he's going to suffer.

 

Nevermind the fact that this feels extremely contrived and counter-intuitive to what (little) we know of Aloth, that is, a pretty standard wizard kind of character. I doubt he'll be fluffed to be some kind of battlemage, especially with those Attributes.

 

Perception isn't just dead weight, it's also too little to even matter on it's own. And he doesn't have the Resolve or Constitution to back up mild support tanking.

 

I also want to clarify that I don't think that Aloth should be changed. I think that the Attributes should be fixed.

[curryinahurry]

Honestly, I'm more concerned about the story and dialogue than the combat; fun combat is a bonus for me, not the focus. My complaint is that a stat that isn't very good for combat is a stat that I would want to take for dialogue, thus making the combat potentially more difficult--which is not cool, because I'm not a particularly strategic or tactical person and the combat in games like this has always been somewhat difficult for me.

 

 

It is good for combat.   There are a lot of combinations for how to use attributes with certain builds and a perception oriented non-tank is perfectly viable with the right selection of weapons & talents.  You may not be able to build an Uber character with it, but a decent build is entirely possible

[Luckmann]

It is good for combat.   There are a lot of combinations for how to use attributes with certain builds and a perception oriented non-tank is perfectly viable with the right selection of weapons & talents.  You may not be able to build an Uber character with it, but a decent build is entirely possible

 

Depends on what class and build he's talking about. I'll be the first one to say that one should go for what they want and aim for the RP, but if he's going for a traditional wizard and referring to Perception, saying that Perception is good for combat for him is ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.

[Kordanor]

After Wasteland and Divinity OS I find this very refreshing.

 

Divinity OS on release had only 2 Companions, so the roles of your main characters were almost already set if you didn’t want to take hirelings similar to PoE. Later after launch they added another 2, but that was already too late for me.

 

And then there is Wasteland. Wasteland had various characters you could recruit and at 90% of them you thought “Why did they gimp him so badly?”

OBSIDIANs vision of making every attribute somewhat useful (even though not perfectly balanced) for all classes works. While it’s still possible to minmax (there is almost always one best option) the characters don’t look totally gimped. And with gimped I mean like in Wasteland where the character might have been able to shoot twice instead of once if the developers did set one or two points differently. Or where he would have gotten 1 additional skillpoint per level if they didn’t completely waste the int attribute on him/her.

 

So to me the stats on the PoE Companions don’t look too bad. I kinda wished that Eder had higher Perception/Resolve to make a better tank, but he should be able to do the job anyways.

 

I am also wondering about the Skills though. As Mechanics and Stealth seem to be less favourable on the main character due to dialogue options, and I’d like them to have both on one character. Combined with a couple of points in athletics, this character should ideally have some bonus in one of both skills. In the worst case I will be limited to the Grieving Mother, who should bring some class boni.

[curryinahurry]

Can a mod remve this and the next post...not sure what happened

 

Edited March 23, 2015 by curryinahurry

[curryinahurry]

Please remove this post

Edited March 23, 2015 by curryinahurry

[curryinahurry]

 

 

 

Depends on what class and build he's talking about. I'll be the first one to say that one should go for what they want and aim for the RP, but if he's going for a traditional wizard and referring to Perception, saying that Perception is good for combat for him is ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.

 

 

 

Disagree...it depends on the build.  You can build a tanky Wizard with High perception and take down the Harond Guard at the bridge at 4th level with the right selection of spells and basic equipment.  Just did it and interrupt came in quite handy.  With the right equipment and crafting, one could build a very good character around a high perception concept.  It may not be great for a Power gamer, but for for someone who wants to RP a particular type of chracter and have synergy between the RP aspects and combat, it's fine.

 

BTW, we don't know how this might change between 480 and release, so the whole discussion might be moot

[Luckmann]

 

 

 

Depends on what class and build he's talking about. I'll be the first one to say that one should go for what they want and aim for the RP, but if he's going for a traditional wizard and referring to Perception, saying that Perception is good for combat for him is ignorant at best and deceptive at worst.

 

 

 

Disagree...it depends on the build.  You can build a tanky Wizard with High perception and take down the Harond Guard at the bridge at 4th level with the right selection of spells and basic equipment.  Just did it and interrupt came in quite handy.  With the right equipment and crafting, one could build a very good character around a high perception concept.  It may not be great for a Power gamer, but for for someone who wants to RP a particular type of chracter and have synergy between the RP aspects and combat, it's fine.

 

BTW, we don't know how this might change between 480 and release, so the whole discussion might be moot

 

 

Well I did say that it depends on the build. It is possible to build perfectly viable characters with incredibly underoptimized Attributes, really, simply because Attributes are not the end-all, be-all. But keeping with a "vanilla Wizard" concept and the Perception Attribute, you'd be doing well despite the pumped Perception, not because of it.

 

There's an argument in this general vicinity about the feasibility of battlemages (it's.. not positive) but if that is what you're building for anyway, then yes, we can place Perception back on the table to a degree, but then you might as well invest in Resolve rather than Perception.

 

And no, we don't know if it'll change, but if it hasn't changed since v435 all the way up to the post-1.0 release copies (I think it's, like, v1.0.1.490?) that have gone out to journalists and streamers, I think it's unlikely to change at this point, less than 3 days before release. However, it is a fair point that we can't be sure, and it could get both better or worse. It is an unknown, which is why we're sticking to discussing things as they are or as they could be, rather than theorycraft on completely unknown factors.

[etagloc]

I don't really care that much.. im sure ill be able to complete the game with them, even on hard.

[Elerond]

 

It is not worthless as it allows you to make Aloth a tanky front line wizard that uses those self buff, cone and melee spells. It also gives him ability slow enemies down with his attacks and spells as he can interrupt enemies, this works if you use him in more support role.

Except as I said, unless you build for tankyness, it doesn't really contribute in a meaningful way at all, the PER Alone is an abysmal contribution to his potential survivability. Also, as a Wizard (with a CON of 10 no less) he's got the Endurance/Health pool of a snowflake. Slap heavy armour on him and take Talents to support his tankyness, he's going to up his survivability and make at least some use of that PER, but at that point he'll be a terrible, terrible Wizard due to the enormous action recovery he's going to suffer.

 

Nevermind the fact that this feels extremely contrived and counter-intuitive to what (little) we know of Aloth, that is, a pretty standard wizard kind of character. I doubt he'll be fluffed to be some kind of battlemage, especially with those Attributes.

 

Perception isn't just dead weight, it's also too little to even matter on it's own. And he doesn't have the Resolve or Constitution to back up mild support tanking.

 

I also want to clarify that I don't think that Aloth should be changed. I think that the Attributes should be fixed.

 

 

You can rise Con with items, rest bonuses and consumable bonuses at least 8 points and you also get items that give you endurance and health, so if you build him to be tank then you should probably also boost his con with those methods that allow you to do so. 

 

Also when you build him to be tank it don't matter as much that his action recovery is slower (although you can also boost his dex with together with his con if you feel that he need to cast more, which I don't think as wizards have such few spells per rest), as you put him in front line to soak those enemy hits, and also you have spells that add your DR (Spirit Shield) so that you can use lighter armor or make sure that you take minimal damage (which allows you to boost something else than con with those bonuses mentioned before), also you can use spells like for example Concelhaut's Parasitic Staff (which gives him quarter staff that helps him hit better and heals him) and Combusting Wounds which causes additional burn damage to any enemy in are that takes wound (which is helps when you don't do singular high damage hits but lots of small damage hits). So on and so forth you can make him work decently and I find such bit unoptimal quite fun to play, but that is me.

 

But tank is not only role where higher perception works for the build, for example you can use him  support roles by getting spells like Chill Fog (which is Foe AoE that does freeze damage, cause enemies become blinded and has possibility interrupt them for 0.5 seconds), Thrust of Tattered Veils (which is single target spell that does crush damage and has possibility interrupt enemy for 1 second, useful against enemy big hitters, casters and those that are armed with firearms), Bewildering Spectacle (which is foe aoe that causes enemies become confused and has ability to interrupt them for 0.5 seconds) , Curse of Blackened Sight (which is Aoe that causes blindness and has ability to interrupt for 0.5 seconds.) and Blast talent (which gives foe AoE for your attacks if you use wand, rod or scepter).  Interrupt is not most reliable method to lower enemy dps, but it work relatively well, especially when you use spells/abilities that lower enemy concentration.  

 

But what comes to Aloth character I can't say anything, but I think that battlemage can play both tank and combat support roles.

[Enoch]

This is making me wish I'd been around to see some of the reactions that cropped up when folks found out that the first real Fighter you're likely to recruit in BG1 had a Strength of 15. 

[TrueMenace]

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

[Kordanor]

Will probably test that with Path of the Damned + Expert. Gimme Pain!

[Gromnir]

This is making me wish I'd been around to see some of the reactions that cropped up when folks found out that the first real Fighter you're likely to recruit in BG1 had a Strength of 15. 

well, you weren't compelled to go to the inn as your first stop, but we get your meaning.  the biowarians sure did learn their lesson for bg2.

 

starting poe attributes is about as important as starting d&d 3.5 attributes.  the starting point spreads is not inconsequential, but unlike d&d, there ain't the same opportunities to ridiculous inflate the staring attributes.  poe attributes, while meaningful, is ultimately less important than talents and abilities, simply 'cause you is gonna get more abilities and talents. poe attributes won't get the d&d treatment whereby you effective need boost your prime attribute through the ceiling or you will be a constant fail.  find ways to boost and stack an attribute will not supercede talents and abilities.

 

we played the beta for many hours... too many hours.  as often as not, we used the bb fighter as a tank with tank abilities and tank talents. our bb fighter ended up with very impressive deflection and were a fireplug tank that ruled engagement. the bb fighter gots crap resolve and perception. 

 

the attributes is having similar long-range impact as the starting point-buy abilities o' a 3e d&d pnp character.  that isn't a bad thing, but am believing people is again looking at poe with their crpg experience as a filtre. compared to most crpgs with starting attributes, the initial poe numbers is gonna have far less meaning-- far less long-term meaning.

 

*shrug*

 

khalid were potential a fantastic archer, but he did stink up the joint early in the game.  when we look at the starting attributes for the poe companions, we is hardly discouraged.  with talents and abilities, we has no doubt we can make any o' the poe joinables effective.  after all, the difference between effective and optimal, when looking only at starting attributes, is not particular large in poe.

 

HA! Good Fun!

Edited March 23, 2015 by Gromnir

[Sherr]

Keep in mind, Josh Sawyer beat the game on Hard with only companions. So they are very viable.

 

its say more about game difficulty, than viability of companions.

 

Anyway i will never agree with argument - "its ok that companions are gimped if i can finish game anyway".