Wizard vs Cipher

[aeonsim]

I think it's more of a design goal, but I'm afrait it doesn't work in practice - I've just completed BB with Cipher, and party wizard simply couldn't compare his blast damage to 80-120 dmg per shot I got from my arquebus.

 

 

The most powerful ranged weapon type in the game is likely to do a bit better than an implement, so it's hardly that interesting a comparison. Try building your Cipher with some other weapon aside from the Blunderbuss and Arquebus and you'll find it's much closer and sometimes in the Wizards favour. Oh and Arquebus have a damage and range reduction coming in the Zero day patch so your can probably say good bye to those 120dmg hits. Also did you give the BB wizard or custom wizard the Penetrating Blast talent and micro them so they targeted the biggest group each time?

[Elerond]

Wizards is most flexible class in game, you can do tank, single target dps, crowd control and support builds wizard with ability change their role on fly by changing what spells they have in their use. They aren't necessary best character for any singular build but what makes them great is their ability to be decent in any role and change roles on fly, which is something that other classes aren't able to do in meaningful degree.

 

Cipher is excellent single target dps class which can also be build as support-dps or tank-support roles so that they work decently. 

 

Both classes are heavy maintenance in any role you pick for them. 

 

When you think classes usefulness you should note that there are four major roles (support, tank, dps and crowd control) than you probably need in your party in some capacity and you will have party of six characters. Wizard is excellent addition to party where you have four characters that have focused on singular role, as you can make them become additional character in any of those roles depending on what kind party composition you need in any given encounter.  So party with four fully specialized characters and one or two wizards has good flexibility to deal with any encounter that you face as you can make wizards help in any of the major roles depending on what your party needs more in any particular encounter.  

So both classes have things where they excel and you can find place for both of them in your party depending on what your party composition is.

[Myrten]

 

I think it's more of a design goal, but I'm afrait it doesn't work in practice - I've just completed BB with Cipher, and party wizard simply couldn't compare his blast damage to 80-120 dmg per shot I got from my arquebus.

 

 

The most powerful ranged weapon type in the game is likely to do a bit better than an implement, so it's hardly that interesting a comparison. Try building your Cipher with some other weapon aside from the Blunderbuss and Arquebus and you'll find it's much closer and sometimes in the Wizards favour. Oh and Arquebus have a damage and range reduction coming in the Zero day patch so your can probably say good bye to those 120dmg hits. Also did you give the BB wizard or custom wizard the Penetrating Blast talent and micro them so they targeted the biggest group each time?

 

Is there any list of changes coming in Zero day patch?

[Junkermanz]

Is a ranged Cipher the way to go?

 

Which abilities and talents would compliment this?

 

Is the Cipher better with the CC debuff abilities or straight DPS?

[Myrten]

Is a ranged Cipher the way to go?

 

Which abilities and talents would compliment this?

 

Is the Cipher better with the CC debuff abilities or straight DPS?

Yes, melee cipher is simply too fragile.

 

Focus on  Arquebus and you cannot go wrong, both CC and DPS are useful.

[Shdy314]

Is a ranged Cipher the way to go?

 

Which abilities and talents would compliment this?

 

Is the Cipher better with the CC debuff abilities or straight DPS?

Biting Whip is mandatory.

You must not pick any loser powers as their choice is as final as talents. My favorite 1st level powers are Eyestrike, Soul Shock and Whispers of Treason. Mental Binding is a mandatory level 2 power.

You use CC debuff abilities to raise not only your DPS but the entire party. They do awful things to defenses. Since you arent per rest you can debuff every fight.

Marksman is a good talent as I believe it will give you ranged accuracy with not just arquebus but spells as well. Alternately Close Shooter gets you more damage but I think you have to get way too close.

You max Might as damage gets you focus and synergizes with Soul Whip and Biting Whip.

You max Int so your debuffs last as long as possible.

Weapon Focus of course.

[Meretrelle]

Shdy314

 

What starting race\attr would you recommend for a ranged(pistols etc) cipher? I suppose I should concentrate on INT DEX  MGHT (in that order) and wear "armor" that doesn't affect my recovery rate .It should help with firing guns more often thus gaining focus points more frequently , no?

 

TIA

Edited March 24, 2015 by Meretrelle

[Shdy314]

Shdy314

 

What starting race\attr would you recommend for a ranged(pistols etc) cipher? I suppose I should concentrate on INT DEX  MGHT (in that order) and wear "armor" that doesn't affect my recovery rate .It should help with firing guns more often thus gaining focus points more frequently , no?

TIA

I said already.

You max Might as damage gets you focus and synergizes with Soul Whip and Biting Whip.

You max Int so your debuffs last as long as possible.

 

Dex isn't bad but not as important as those two. You want the slower hard hitting weapons not the fast ones. If we are speaking about what I would call optimal.  One high damage hit gets you all the focus you need. Remember you start at half your max focus in every fight. So it's spells then shoot once. Fight probably over. Or Shoot once then spells. Fight probably over. Dex just helps you cast faster. Wearing clothes instead of armor is already boosting your speed. If you want dex higher drop some other attributes like con or resolve.

 

Best race? Wood Elf gets you a ranged accuracy bonus. Hearth Orlan improves your damage. I suppose Death Godlike are also ok for them with their int boost and low enemy endurance damage boost. 

[gkathellar]

Shdy314

 

What starting race\attr would you recommend for a ranged(pistols etc) cipher? I suppose I should concentrate on INT DEX  MGHT (in that order) and wear "armor" that doesn't affect my recovery rate .It should help with firing guns more often thus gaining focus points more frequently , no?

 

TIA

 

 

There's some incentive to go for a wood elf (for the ranged combat bonus) or an island aumuauauauaua (for the extra weapon slot). Aside from that, you're pretty much on the right track, although Might is more important than Dexterity. I'd max all three stats, so it doesn't matter much. Stay away from any kind of armor, use an arquebus, and have fun.

[PIP-Clownboy]

Is a ranged Cipher the way to go?

 

Which abilities and talents would compliment this?

 

Is the Cipher better with the CC debuff abilities or straight DPS?

 

I puppet mastered Wymund on POTD and he took 3 cultist out himself before he turned back hostile. At least in current build I've never seen Puppet Master miss and works on just about everything. 

 

The only DPS cipher spell is really is detonate. And that mind lance pierce one was an okish opener with nice range. Otherwise CC seems way too good in general. 

[Sebmono]

 

Shdy314

 

What starting race\attr would you recommend for a ranged(pistols etc) cipher? I suppose I should concentrate on INT DEX  MGHT (in that order) and wear "armor" that doesn't affect my recovery rate .It should help with firing guns more often thus gaining focus points more frequently , no?

 

TIA

 

 

There's some incentive to go for a wood elf (for the ranged combat bonus) or an island aumuauauauaua (for the extra weapon slot). Aside from that, you're pretty much on the right track, although Might is more important than Dexterity. I'd max all three stats, so it doesn't matter much. Stay away from any kind of armor, use an arquebus, and have fun.

 

I saw in one of Sensuki's videos that he had a Cipher wielding a great sword; this is the kind of build I am looking at but most people I'm reading from keep saying arquebus or fast dual-wielding melee. If a 2-H Melee Cipher wears some medium armor (scale maybe) and has some Dex poitns to offset the recovery slowdown, shouldn't this be a viable (not necessarily optimal) build?

[Cronstintein]

I tried melee cypher for a while, but had much better results using a blunderbuss.  It was superior in damage, focus generation and survivability.

 

Using wood elf + marksman on a caster to gain accuracy for spells is an interesting idea I hadn't considered!

 

Generally speaking, the cypher was pretty darn good.  Excellent CC and good damage usable every fight.  The wizard was weaker for the average fights (partly because I would be saving spells) but was terrific when it counted and everything was unleashed.  Hard to compete with the potential of 4 fireballs in a row on a slickened group of enemies.

[Cronstintein]

So I did some testing (and eventually actually reading the blurb on the ability)

 

-Marskman does NOT help spell accuracy.  It's still not a bad talent for a wizard since they'll probably be doing a fair amount of ranged combat. 

 

-Marksman DOES stack with the wood elf bonus when using wands (so +10 accuracy total)

 

-The wood elf bonus DOES work with spells, giving +5acc when you're past a few meters (ie: the back half of fan of flames was getting the bonus).

[Myrten]

So I did some testing (and eventually actually reading the blurb on the ability)

 

-Marskman does NOT help spell accuracy.  It's still not a bad talent for a wizard since they'll probably be doing a fair amount of ranged combat. 

 

-Marksman DOES stack with the wood elf bonus when using wands (so +10 accuracy total)

 

-The wood elf bonus DOES work with spells, giving +5acc when you're past a few meters (ie: the back half of fan of flames was getting the bonus).

Now I gonna have elven party lol....

[mrmonocle]

wizard /subj.

[igotsmeakabob11]

I like the idea of a mercenary wizard with a pistol, is that a suboptimal choice or can it be feasible? I saw the level 1 wizard power that provides a bonus to accuracy and wondered what else could it be for?

 

I see everywhere that Cipher's are just superior and are built for guns, but I usually played a wizard in the old CRPGs.. this particular game just happens to have firearms as well!

[Azmodiuz]

Yes but they start with half their max focus (which is usually plenty) and if you do just one hard hitting attack from say an arquebus or blunderbus you can get lots of focus.

yeah, they do not do so anymore. do not expect to use thier abilities in most battle,s making the whole point of being a cipher - for its abilities, useless. Stupid way to NERF the game. 

[Killyox]

Wizard

 

Lots of spells on demand with many effect. When you run out of spells you can always resort to Phantom (which has crazy accuracy and does a lot of Blast dmg) + Kalkoth's Minor Blights + Blast. My wizard with this does more aoe dmg than my barb I constantly see 25-40 hits from wiz with kalkoth's aoe and then each hit procs blasts + 25-40 aoe hits from phantom (basic one).

 

Vastly pref Wizard now. Not even using cipher in my party. 

 

So yeah, weapon damage Wizard > Cipher.

 

 

Dangerous Implement, Blast, Penetrating Blast, Kalkolth's Minor Blights, Essential Phantom. You can autoattack the hell out of enemies if need be and you are down to no spells. These 2 are my spells that I always have when I think I will need a lot more impact over a long period of time. Kalkoths lasts for me 90+ seconds. Phantom lasts whole fight.

 

I also got wand that has 10% chance of applying Burning Wounds in aoe and since blast and kalkoth's are all aoe that 10% chance pretty much always takes place so enemies take DOt fire dmg and since I aoe with wiz and phantom + barb it ramps up really fast.

 

Wiz is simply better.

 

Cipher better accuracy ? I don't think so. My wiz is also a trapper One trap I put down outdamaged everything I have ever done XDD but I wrote about it in another thread.

 

Wizard also has some unique dialogs iirc. I expect more dialogs if I ever get to Concelhaut

Edited August 31, 2015 by Killyox