Gromnir Posted March 22, 2015 Share Posted March 22, 2015 after another +8 hours o' ranger play... meh. it isn't a hopeless class as it were in previous builds, but there is no way we would play a ranger our first time through poe on hard mode. the animal companion continues to require constant attention and care during the beta combats we have now completed literal dozens (hundreds?) of times. for Gromnir, meta-knowledge o' battles is almost a prerequisite for keeping the critter alive. also, the class still don't work particularly well as designed-- it is not a ranged-heavy hitter on par with the rogue. the class is not exactly great, but it ain't guaranteed to frustrate neither, save for our previous observation that we cannot possibly recommend playing a ranger for a first run o' poe on hard mode. as complete impossible as the suggestion is to be accepted by obsidian or boardies, we once again will put forth the notion that the single best way to improve the ranger is to comple discard the animal companion. the synergy between ranger and companion still needs tuning, the companions themselves are more nuisance than anything else, and we suspect that obsidian has more than a little difficulty balancing what amounts to a 7th party member. get rid o' the ranger's parasite and rebuild without all the attendant headaches and hurdles. HA! Good Fun! Honestly from the sound of it, you're still using the pet incorrectly. You talk about how much micro-managing it needs, but if you have a ranged ranger then it would probably need LESS management than it would for a melee ranger. You also refer to it as a seventh party member. To me, it sounds like you have the pet on the front lines with your tanks. That's not where the pet belongs, even if it's a bear or antelope. The pet should never be initially targeted by anything for engagement, it should single out a roamer or something presently engaged, and then the ranger follows the target of the pet. Pets tank just like rogues do, which is to say that they are not suited for it at all. Hang back with the pet, wait until the field is settled. If you find yourself missing a tank because the pet isn't grabbing aggro, then your party is imbalanced. The only time the pet can rush in is when the ranger is also melee. The ranger has higher defenses, access to higher DR, and has more endurance than the pet. The ranger will tank while the pet deals damage. The pet is not a meat shield, it is the method by which rangers deal damage. this is not our first rodeo. we never send the animal companion out front first. given how many times we has played the beta, we know how and when and what direction beetles and spiders and cultists will attack. if we didn't, we would be kinda screwed with the animal companion. however, the animal companion must be sent in to attack enemies at some point or it is worthless. hard-mode battles happen fast and frequent involve large-sized mobs that, gosh, sometimes make their saves v. slicken or get past a tank or whatever. try and fight more than one average or weak enemy = animal companion death. try to have animal comp run away from multiple foes = animal death. etc. and yeah, it is equivalent o' an extra party member as far as balancing is concerned. count the number o' party member icons... then add 1. the animal companion is a fragile extra party member with increasingly terrible accuracy, but the obsidians gotta treat the animal companion as extra beyond party member numbers... that is why poe has so few summons. persistent summons is effectively an extra party member, albeit a weak, taciturn and frequent annoying party member. HA! Good Fun! "If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence."Justice Louis Brandeis, Concurring, Whitney v. California, 274 U.S. 357 (1927) "Im indifferent to almost any murder as long as it doesn't affect me or mine."--Gfted1 (September 30, 2019) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sock Posted March 23, 2015 Share Posted March 23, 2015 Fair enough, I just know that I've been playing on PotD with a ranger, and my pet goes down 1 out of every 5 encounters, typically because I screwed up. Not only am I facing more creatures per encounter than on hard, but they are tougher too. Maybe I am experiencing such joy with my ranger due to my whole party set up. Fighter- 2H sword, defender and wary defender. Focus on DPS otherwise. Paladin- Pike, +DT Aura, Flames of Darconi Palace, cautious attack, warhammer/shield on switch. Ranger- Sword and Shield, Wolf pet, Hold the Line, Cautious Attack, Swift Aim, Stalker's Link, warbow on switch. Priest- Arbequs, gunner, inspired flame, weapon focus soldier, sword (no shield, not dual wield) on switch. Wizard- Blast, Penetrating Blast, Penetrating Shot, spells taken are support/debuff, not damage. Easily replaceable with a Cipher, Cipher's can blind and paralyze cheaply and easily without risking party members. Chanter- Blunderbuss, summons phantom, then uses the Three White Worms ivocation when things are dying/dead. Gunner, and Ila Nocked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightguy Posted March 24, 2015 Author Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Thanks for all the feedback and information! Lots of good discussion. TBH, I really wanted to roll a ranged ranger, with a stronger pet. I wouldn't mind giving up a spot for my 6th charather to bring along an equally powerful pet, but that's just me! Maybe there will be some intersting mods or something that make ranger more enticing to play. Edited March 24, 2015 by knightguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just had a bit of a play around with the classes and, while the ranger has come on leaps and bounds from its earlier incarnations, it still remains rather underwhelming. I ran a few fights against Medreth's party, on hard, using my PC and the BB 4. The fighter was set up to tank the group, and then the priest was set up either to off-tank Medreth or dps dependant upon whether the PC was off-tank or dps itself. The party average damage (post fight) sat at around 100. Invariably for all builds, fighter sat at around 60, rouge at 130, wizard at 120, off tank at around 70. On the Ranger playthrough, despite being set up to go full dps, it achieved a magnificent 90. That was less than the BB Priest (with a pike and without using spells) was routinely getting when not tanking. Obviously that performance could easily be the exception to the rule, but I couldn't help but laugh at the idea of a dedicated dps sitting below the party average for damage. I don't doubt that with some management the Ranger can be useful, as Sock says, but it appears apparent that it requires a certain degree of expertise to get the best from it. For the record, the highest damaging class in my messing around was by far and away the Druid, taking home nearly 300 damage. I'm not sure if that included friendly fire, however, since half of the rest of the party had died. Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dunehunter Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 Just had a bit of a play around with the classes and, while the ranger has come on leaps and bounds from its earlier incarnations, it still remains rather underwhelming. I ran a few fights against Medreth's party, on hard, using my PC and the BB 4. The fighter was set up to tank the group, and then the priest was set up either to off-tank Medreth or dps dependant upon whether the PC was off-tank or dps itself. The party average damage (post fight) sat at around 100. Invariably for all builds, fighter sat at around 60, rouge at 130, wizard at 120, off tank at around 70. On the Ranger playthrough, despite being set up to go full dps, it achieved a magnificent 90. That was less than the BB Priest (with a pike and without using spells) was routinely getting when not tanking. Obviously that performance could easily be the exception to the rule, but I couldn't help but laugh at the idea of a dedicated dps sitting below the party average for damage. I don't doubt that with some management the Ranger can be useful, as Sock says, but it appears apparent that it requires a certain degree of expertise to get the best from it. For the record, the highest damaging class in my messing around was by far and away the Druid, taking home nearly 300 damage. I'm not sure if that included friendly fire, however, since half of the rest of the party had died. Maybe you don't build your ranger right enough, and remember rangers get their dps burst when they reach level 6, with stalker's link learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kjaamor Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 It was fairly obvious that particular ranger build was greatly sub-optimal, and having tried it again (this time specialising in hunting bows, following my Cipher's success with them) I achieved a much more respectable 150 - the highest in the party. Notably, that time the Rogue achieved a damage of 60, so I wouldn't want to give too much credence to anything I've done today. Other kickstarter projects to which I have no affiliation but you may be interested: Serpent in the Staglands: A rtwp gothic isometric crpg in the style of Darklands The Mandate: Strategy rpg as a starship commander with focus on crew management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sock Posted March 24, 2015 Share Posted March 24, 2015 (edited) Here's a run down of my last PotD run through, with a non-optimized party. Party Records: Most Enemies Defeated: Chanter (35) Most Total Damage Done: BB Wizard (4891) High Single Target Damage: BB Wizard (46) Most Crits: Ranger (31) Most Hits: BB Priest (697) Most Damage Taken: Fighter (4021) Most Times Knocked Out: Fighter (4) Ranger (Tank) - Coastal Aumaua, pet is a wolf. 16 might, 8 con, 10 dex, 15 per, 14 int, 15 res. Marked Prey, Stalkers' Link, Swift Aim, Defensive Bond, Weapon and Shield Style, Hold the Line, Cautious Attack, Bloody Slaughter. Fine chain mail, fine sword, fine medium heater shield, war bow on switch. Uses ring of deflection, boost of deflection, and trollhide belt. 14 DR, 20 vs slash and 9 vs blunt. 105 deflection, 57 fortitude, 78 reflexes, 63 will. 43 Accuracy. Enemies Defeated: 16 Total Damage Done: 3263.7 Highest Single Target Damage: 29.0 Crits: 31 Hits: 173 Damage Taken: 2655.4 Times Knocked Out: 2 Fighter (DPS Tank), human. 17 might, 16 con, 10 dex, 11 per, 13 int, 11 res. Knockdown, Defender, Wary Defender, Confident Aim, Weapon Spec: Soldier, Weapon Focus: Soldier, Two-Handed Style, Weapon Mastery: Soldier Plate mail, Hours of St. Rumbalt, Girdle of Mortal Protection 15 DR, 18 vs flashing/piercing, 9 vs shock. 63 deflection, 85 fortitude, 53 reflexes, 63 will. 69 Accuracy. Enemies Defeated: 32 Total Damage Done: 3868.2 Highest Single Target Damage: 46.3 Crits: 14 Hits: 112 Damage Taken: 4021.0 Times Knocked Out: 4 Paladin (Off-tank, support DPS) Moon Godlike of Darcozzi Paladini 14 might, 12 con, 10 dex, 14 per/int/res. Flames of Devotion, Inspiring Triumph, Reviving Exhortation (wanted to see if it works with pets, and it does, but bonded grief persists), Zealous Endurance, Fires of Darcozzi Palace, Cautious Attack, Scion of Flame, Weapon Focus Soldier. Fine Leather armor, Boots of Zealous Command, Cloak of Disengagement, Girdle of Mortal Protection, Tall Grass, Fine Warhammer and Fine Large Shield on switch. 11 DR, 15 vs slash, 16 vs fire, 7 vs corrode. 69 deflection, 61 fortitude, 51 reflexes, 59 will. 60 accuracy. Enemies Defeated: 24 Total Damage Done: 3523.5 Highest Single Target Damage: 37.4 Crits: 11 Hits: 225 Damage Taken: 3407.4 Times Knocked Out: 2 Chanter (Ranged Summoner/DPS) Coastal Aumaua 20 might, 16 con, 19 dex, 3 per, 18 int, 3 res. Chants: Dull the Edge, Blessed Was Wengridh, At the Sight of their Comrades, Ila Nocked, Harbringers Invocations: Phantom, White Worms Writhed, Thunder Rolled, Killers Froze Stiff, Wurm summon. Penetrating Shot, Ancient Memory, Beloved Spirits, Weapon Focus Adventurer Fine Warbow, Exceptional Estoc, Fine Scale mail, Stag Helm, Voice of the Mountain Top 12 DR, 14 vs slash, 10 vs pierce, 14 vs cold. 33 deflection, 81 fortitude, 45 reflexes, 47 will. Enemies Defeated: 35 Total Damage Done: 4873.2 Highest Single Target Damage: 34.7 Crits: 5 Hits: 139 Damage Taken: 586.4 Times Knocked Out: 0 BB Priest Gave her Leadsplitter with the Pike on switch, Gunner, and Interdiction. Enemies Defeated: 24 Total Damage Done: 3405.4 Highest Single Target Damage: 41.8 Crits: 13 Hits: 697 Damage Taken: 876.2 Times Knocked Out: 1 BB Wizard Gave him penetrating blast and penetrating shot; didn't work as I'd hoped. Enemies Defeated: 34 Total Damage Done: 4891.3 Highest Single Target Damage: 46.4 Crits: 21 Hits: 266 Damage Taken: 493.7 Times Knocked Out: 0 Fun note, Wizard had the highest damage for the party, but only by 18 points. While the other tanks out-damage the ranger, the ranger doesn't have any epic weapons like they do. Give my ranger an on crit: prone weapon that also has +12 accuracy and you're looking at a game changer. It's also worth noting that he uses a sword and shield, not a mace (which is by far superior), whereas the other tanks are using a 2H weapon. I am confident that no other sword and board user can reached that kind of damage in melee while still being extremely durable and reliable. Also... I noticed this, and I am hesitant to share it, but... I did find a possible bug with Swift Aim and Cautious Attack. Edited March 24, 2015 by Sock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueMenace Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What's the update with the Ranger and animal companion's shared HP? Didn't they change that? Calibrating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sofanisse Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 I don't get the ranger hate, i absolutly love my ranger and will definently be running a first run with one. And in regards to the damage being weaker than other classes, with the build below its just now the case. Now i haven't been doing any deep analyzing like sensuki,k just ran the beta and had great fun with the ranger. Stats were a bit ramdom (16 might and 16 dex ) but i can get back with them later if anyone wants them. Skills/talents: mark prey, ruffian special, swift aim, gunner, stalkers link, swift and steady, and pet takedown. Then running a blunderbuss, dual sabers and hide armor. A normal enemy gets killed i one or two shots as soon as the pet closes in, and if something should get close you can finish it off with the sabers. The reload speed of the blunderbuss is ultra fast due to gunner and swift aim, and with mark prey and pet on a target i haven't found anything i can one shot, litteraly doing over 120 damage in a shot (with an enchanted blunderbuss ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sofanisse Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 What's the update with the Ranger and animal companion's shared HP? Didn't they change that? Yes, now you just get a debuff if your pet dies. Its a nasty debuff, but it won't kill you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sock Posted March 26, 2015 Share Posted March 26, 2015 It's no longer an issue. It was too complicated to make work and then balance, so it was scrapped. Now what happens is that if the pet dies, the ranger gets a combat long debuff that applies -20 accuracy, -4 resolve, and -4 something else. Might, maybe? Don't remember. And that goes visa-versa, if the ranger dies then the pet gets the debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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