Can you respec?

[Stun]

What difficulty mode do you play on?

 

If it's anything other than "Easy," then why don't you have a huge problem with Easy difficulty existing?

--------------------------------------------------------

 

I don't have a problem with the Easy setting because the Easy setting has a legitimate function in any RPG: To trivialize combat for players who are playing for the story. And the HUGE difference between an "easy" setting and a respec feature is that the former leaves all the CC and RPG elements perfectly intact. The latter does not.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[Creslin321]

 

If it's anything other than "Easy," then why don't you have a huge problem with Easy difficulty existing?

--------------------------------------------------------

 

Because the Easy setting has a function: To trivialize combat for players who are playing for the story not the combat. And the HUGE difference between an "easy" setting and a respect feature is that the former leaves all choice and consequence, and all RPG elements intact. The latter does not.

 

 

------------

 

Given that just about every applicable RPG game either has respec built in, or a quickly release mod for respec, I'm going to say that respec also has a function.  In fact, I will tell you that function:

 

1.  To avoid locking players into decisions made when they don't understand the system well.

2.  To discourage "cookie cutter" builds made by every player for fear of being gimped if they try to spec themselves.

3.  To allow players who enjoy trying different builds to do that without spending 60 hours per build.

 

Further, easy difficulty is MUCH more work to implement than a respec function.  Which means it is a bigger drain on the developer's resources, so there's really no argument that implementing an optional respec would cause other features to be dropped from the game.

 

Finally, remember that YOU can play the game without respec in it at all.  So once again, what is your issue with other people playing the game in a way they enjoy that has no effect on your enjoyment of the game whatsoever?

Edited March 28, 2015 by Creslin321

[SwampFalc]

I'd really like it if there was at least some backtracking allowed. When leveling up, allow me to reduce 1 stat by 1 and put it somewhere else. Lower 1 skill by 1 and put that somewhere else, etc. Change your weapon focus from one set to another...

 

I don't think you need to be allowed to reset your entire character, but getting the tools to change your mind just a bit along the way of the adventure would be nice, I think.

[Stun]

Given that just about every applicable RPG game either has respec built in, or a quickly release mod for respec,

__________________________________________

 

False premise. Since we're talking about Pillars of Eternity, there are only 5 applicable RPGs.

 

1)Baldurs Gate

2)Icewind Dale

3)Planescape Torment

4)Baldurs Gate 2

5)Icewind Dale 2

 

None of them had a respec feature. And I'm not going to bother discussing Mods because that's a complete *red herring* and you know it. (why are you even here asking for a respec feature for PoE, when you know full well that someone will eventually create a mod that lets you do pretty much any type of editing to the game?)

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[Cantousent]

Yeah, I have to admit that I don't think it makes sense to count mods when arguing about core features in the game.  In fact, it seems to me that citing mods argues against the position of including any feature.  After all, the reason it's modded is because the design team didn't put it in as a core feature.  They didn't put it in as a feature at all.

 

I'm pretty neutral on respec, but I wouldn't cite mods as a reason why.  I would instead cite them as a reason why not.

[Creslin321]

 

Given that just about every applicable RPG game either has respec built in, or a quickly release mod for respec,

__________________________________________

 

False premise. Since we're talking about Pillars of Eternity, there are only 5 applicable RPGs.

 

1)Baldurs Gate

2)Icewind Dale

3)Planescape Torment

4)Baldurs Gate 2

5)Icewind Dale 2

 

None of them had a respec feature. And I'm not going to bother discussing Mods because that's a complete *red herring* and you know it. (why are you even here asking for a respec feature for PoE, when you know full well that someone will eventually create a mod that lets you do pretty much any type of editing to the game?)

 

 

------

 

I'm here discussing it because some of you guys are arguing that, in principle, offering a respec option is bad.  Your standpoint seems to be staunchly against respec, so much so that you don't even want it allowed as an option for other people to do even if you can be completely isolated from it.

 

And I want to argue against that because I think it is a selfish viewpoint.  You are essentially arguing that you never want an option added to the game that many people want, even if it won't effect you at all.  And the only reason for this is your personal standard of what an RPG should be.

 

But not everyone has that standard...people enjoy games for different reasons and I don't think you should try to tell them that they are enjoying it "wrong."

 

Now in the case of POE, if I were Obsidian I wouldn't bother with a respec at this point.  Because as we all know, there will be a respec mod out probably within a week.

 

That said, my argument still stands.  I don't see the merit in arguing against an optional feature that you don't like when other people want it.

[Creslin321]

Yeah, I have to admit that I don't think it makes sense to count mods when arguing about core features in the game.  In fact, it seems to me that citing mods argues against the position of including any feature.  After all, the reason it's modded is because the design team didn't put it in as a core feature.  They didn't put it in as a feature at all.

 

I'm pretty neutral on respec, but I wouldn't cite mods as a reason why.  I would instead cite them as a reason why not.

 

----

 

I wasn't citing mods to say respec was in IE games.  I was citing them to say that I DID respec in IE games and, contrary to their argument, it did not ruin my experience.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

If you want respec, install a mod or go into the console or any other thing like you did with the IE games. Nothing stopping you doing that.

[Cantousent]

Ah, I see, Creslin.  I don't have the chance to dig into threads like I used to.  So, yeah, that makes sense.  Not that it's modded and therefore people *could* do it.  Rather, the people who *did* do it still enjoyed the game.  I get ya.  It's kind of a different twist on the argument.

[Creslin321]

Ah, I see, Creslin.  I don't have the chance to dig into threads like I used to.  So, yeah, that makes sense.  Not that it's modded and therefore people *could* do it.  Rather, the people who *did* do it still enjoyed the game.  I get ya.  It's kind of a different twist on the argument.

-------------

No problem

[Oxford_Guy]

 

2) PoE has already been released. It has no respec feature, and probably never will as long as Josh is its Project director. Thank God.

 

 

Quite!

[Magrusaod]

Yeah, I piped up earlier due to just the rude, obnoxious post I saw. There's a mod out that working with the command console and just purchasing companions, I can do whatever I want. It just makes me resort to cheating, which I don't like doing. 

However, the comments of "RPG's don't have respecs!" I am going to just revert to my roots here. This game is built off of the old 2nd edition and 3rd edition DnD games which the developers previously made. So some modern tabletop RPG equivalents.

 

Pathfinder RPG: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/more-character-options/retraining

 

3.5 DND: See Players Handbook 2, it's not open source, so can't link it to you, but it's there. 

 

Given folks are all "I played IWD and BG and I know what an RPG are and I think "insert opinion here"! fire and brimstone opinionated. I just find the hostility and rudeness absurd. I've been a DM since the mid 90's. I don't allow it in every game I run, but the enjoyment of my players is paramount, and if someone doesn't enjoy their character partway through my campaign, I let them rebuild their character within my character creation rules. It's just a simple ease of use/quality of life thing that is incredibly simple to allow and makes folks happy in bad situations. 

Not everyone kickstarted this project, and even though I did, I just was of the opinion that I wanted to enter the game on day one, and play it. Not get my hands on a backer beta, not follow every bit of information obsidian put out. I ignore all of it, and the hype, to just simply enjoy the game I paid for when it came out and went off to do things in my life until it came out. 

I also have had serious changes in my life in the past 2.5 years since I backed this game. That's a long time to be waiting for a game. I don't mind waiting, but lol, the just response I got for you know, having responsibilities that keep me from devoting my life to this game is absurd as well. It's disrespectful, and hence, I commented in regards to it. It's a game, I supported it just like everyone else who did. I'm playing it, just like everyone else who did. Being knocked like I'm inferior because I haven't lived and breathed the creation process the last 2.5 years and don't have all of the free time in the world to just replay this constantly is rude. 

I'm doing a lot of what Obsidian did the past 2.5 years for this game outside of the programming/graphics aspects. I'm designing my own game world, and RPG system in addition to my everyday life. I understand what these guys have been going through here on that end. It's frankly, impressive what they have put together. I am enjoying the game. It's great. I just don't have an unlimited time frame to play to my hearts content. The sheer resistance to even a discussion about an ease of use feature like this that is prevalent in RPG's out there is mind boggling to me. Let alone the hostility and rude behavior along with it. 

[soedenone]

 

 

 

 

This whole response is hostile, grossly unwarranted and just putting in the worst case scenario and ignoring all other possibilities. Congrats, I'm impressed. 

 

You do realize, some folks have lives, and might not have the time to devote endless amounts of hours to one particular game. Right? Spouses, children, jobs, college, other hobbies, etc, etc. 

 

For example, I am unemployed, and don't have kids. So it may seem like I have all of the time in the world based on that assumption. Guy doesn't work and doesn't have kids to support, he's good to go. However, I am doing the following: 

 

1. Helping a family member start up a home business, on call to assist as needed all week long, night and day. 

2. Engaged to a lovely woman who demands and deserves attention. 

3. I have a grandfather who is going through treatment for cancer. My grandparents here both take care of my niece and nephew, one of which is too young for school to help out. Which leads to: 

4. While my grandfather is going through cancer treatments, my grandmother must care for him. Hence, I take care of the 4 and 6 year old's they normally care for half the week. It saves their parents roughly $500 weekly. 

5. I am starting up a home business relating to RPG's which requires me to devote nearly every bit of free time that doesn't involve 1-4, sleep, or food to creating my own game world, RPG system, and DM'ing for folks in order to setup a customer base. This eats between 20-60 hours weekly of my time depending on a number of variables. 

 

The assumption that everyone will be thrilled to invest time in multiple times playing through this game just because you plan to is a faulty one. I may be able to fit playing through this game once, before next year rolls around. Once. All the time I can allow myself. Just how it is. 

 

So, regardless of how you feel, a simple ability to respec things if I realize everything isn't working out how I want it to, and salvage an issue which to me is a deal breaker for playing this game, would be a reasonable request. If allowed, and you have a problem with it, you can simply ignore it, never use it, and be on your merry way. Couldn't you? I mean, no one's going to show up and go all Samuel L. Jackson in your house with a gun to your head screaming for you to hit the damn button. 

 

I really don't see what folks problems are with this concept being mentioned. Some people simply really have other responsibilities, and are using this as a hobby to enjoy some free time. Limited free time which is important to them. Free time, that if lost, due to derpy companions, or a poor choice made when selecting options with your character along the way which destroy your enjoyment for the game later on. Could in fact become a straight up deal breaker of continuing to enjoy the game at all. If I were to invest 2 week playing this game, and realize my group just isn't working out, I would have to shelve it for at least 6 months. I wouldn't be able to go "Oh well, it's a great game, I'll just start a new party." I'd have to uninstall it, get back to working on the various needs in my life, and go "Man, I wish I could just spend 30 minutes shifting some attributes around really quickly and fix this mistake that was made and get back to enjoying this great game."

 

However, you obviously have it all figured out, and everyone just wants to make broken characters and that's the devil and you must curse them for it. *nods* I get you. 

 

Oh dear God, what a massive load of-

 

Listen, you implying that people who like the more "hardcore"/"oldschool" mechanics, such as the guy you're responding to, or indeed myself, are some kind of cretins really is providing as much to the discussion as whatever perceived rudeness/insults you found. You did that in the post quoted, as well as the more recent one right above.

 

I don't have time to play this game for 100 hours a week either, but I still don't want a respec feature. I went over why in a reply earlier in this thread. In short, it breaks immersion and cheapens the game experience - besides me also failling to see the real usability of the feature, particularly if it is not available from the beginning and ad nauseam.

 

I also don't find there so be any "resistance" to discussion. You have an opinion ("I would like a respec option") while others have a differing opinion ("I would not like a respec option").

The reason the discussion seems rather stalled is because it is stalled. You're not going to budge on your viewpoints, neither are most other people here. The fact of the matter is that while I can sympathise with those who would like the option for convenience; it still detracts from the game, for me. You seem to be of the mindset that that is impossible, that it could actually be a negative effect for me. Of course my opinion on a game, particularly a single-player one, is "selfish". Just like it is "selfish" of you to want this option in the game, when there are clearly people who don't want it implemented, such as myself. No difference.

 

Oh, and for the record, I only started going to these forums about a week before release, so I'm not one of those "no-lifers who follow the development of the game religiously".

Why people would want to follow the development of a game they funded, of a kind we haven't seen for more than a decade I will never know. Who do these people think they are? Participating in discussions about the game, giving feedback, shaping it along the way and being invested in it in more ways than one.

 

What a sorry, sorry insult, friend, honestly.

[Ohioastro]

The accurate accusations of selfishness stem from having posters who explicitly want to control the play style of other people: to the point where even having an optional toggle is unacceptable because Principles.

 

If you want to argue that its a misallocation of Dev resources, fine. But to claim that it violates some platonic ideal of game design is laughable, and to have that delivered by rude people also makes it unconvincing.

[Creslin321]

So good news to anyone who wants to respec.  The IE mod which allows you to respec via a console command has been updated to work with the latest version of PoE!

 

You can get the mod here:

 

http://www.nexusmods.com/pillarsofeternity/mods/1/?

 

And you can find the console command to respec here:

 

http://rien-ici.com/iemod/console

[Stun]

The accurate accusations of selfishness stem from having posters who explicitly want to control the play style of other people:

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread.

 

Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include:

 

1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.)

2) Designing the game without perma-death

3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind

 

etc.

 

With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money.

 

 

Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun

[Creslin321]

 

The accurate accusations of selfishness stem from having posters who explicitly want to control the play style of other people:

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread.

 

Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include:

 

1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.)

2) Designing the game without perma-death

3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind

 

etc.

 

With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money.

 

 

Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved.

 

 

-----

 

Okay so you argue the issue is game design.  I'm assuming that the implication here is that if respec is added, it will change many other aspects of the game.  Much like how games designed for console always have a "console optimized" UI even on PC.

 

Sooo I'm going to say this is absolute BS.  Adding a respec option in the game literally changes nothing else.  This is not a wide, sweeping design decision like targeting consoles is.  It's literally just a guy that sells a potion that lets you redistribute your talents.  NOTHING else changes in the game, and my proposed solution would mean that the game wouldn't change for you at all if you choose to disable it.

 

Also, to the other two examples you mentioned...

 

While PoE may technically have permadeath, you almost have to be trying to kill your characters off to lose one because of how health and endurance work.  One of my characters gets knocked out in nearly every hard fight, and then they just get up to fight again.

 

And as for multiplayer, it can be good and bad.  Divinity Original Sin had awesome multiplayer, it is not always a bad thing.

[Tildryn]

 

The accurate accusations of selfishness stem from having posters who explicitly want to control the play style of other people:

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread.

 

Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include:

 

1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.)

2) Designing the game without perma-death

3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind

 

etc.

 

With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money.

 

 

Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved.

 

-----

 

You realize, Oh Grand Priest of Infinity Engine, that The Baldur's Gate series had multiplayer, right?

[Bluekkis]

Ffs... Why is respec topic always out there for all crpg out there. Not all games need or should have respec option. Games like this definitely not.

 

Story driven games like Pillars of Eternity is a role playing game, not a power gaming click fest.

 

You are going through the story through the character you have made. Role playing games reflect, to a degree, real world. And just like you are a sum of your life, is your character a sum of the experience he/she has gained over the story. You can't just unlearn everything and become something else and neither should your character in such a heavy story driven game. Having a respec in this game would be analogous to main character suddenly becoming something entirely different in a middle of a movie or a book that would completely interrupt the flow of the story.

[PaintingInAir]

Hopefully someone will release a trainer so players who want to can respec, change class, race, or whatever else they want.

[Creslin321]

 

 

The accurate accusations of selfishness stem from having posters who explicitly want to control the play style of other people:

This is a load of BS, and it's already been addressed a couple of times on this thread.

 

Get this through your head already. The issue here is NOT other people's play styles, the issue is game design. There's an integrity here that the stock game shouldn't break. Developing the game with a respec feature is just one of the breaking points. Others include:

 

1) Designing the game for consoles (Xbox1, PS4 etc.)

2) Designing the game without perma-death

3) Designing a game with multi-player in mind

 

etc.

 

With all of these, one can simply argue "well it doesn't affect you, since all of these things would be optional. Simply don't play the game on a console, don't play multi-player, and just dismiss party members who fall in battle! Problem solved!". But that doesn't address the argument. Some of us backed this game because we were specifically promised an "old school" IE experience. Had they, instead, promised us "the modern Dragon Age experience" I wouldn't have given them a single penny of my money.

 

 

Enough of this. It's my turn now make suggestions. PoE does not have a respec feature because that's not the type of game it was designed to be. Deal with it. Cheat, download mods, grab your skyrim buddies at the Nexus and ask them to modernize the game to your own specifications. Or, just stick around here and whine about how unfair life is for another 5 pages. Either way, problem solved.

 

-----

 

You realize, Oh Grand Priest of Infinity Engine, that The Baldur's Gate series had multiplayer, right?

 

------------

 

LOL good point.  Pretty sure BG 1/2 didn't have permadeath either.

[Creslin321]

Ffs... Why is respec topic always out there for all crpg out there. Not all games need or should have respec option. Games like this definitely not.

 

Story driven games like Pillars of Eternity is a role playing game, not a power gaming click fest.

 

You are going through the story through the character you have made. Role playing games reflect, to a degree, real world. And just like you are a sum of your life, is your character a sum of the experience he/she has gained over the story. You can't just unlearn everything and become something else and neither should your character in such a heavy story driven game. Having a respec in this game would be analogous to main character suddenly becoming something entirely different in a middle of a movie or a book that would completely interrupt the flow of the story.

 

------------

 

First, I would argue that PoE is actually BOTH a story driven game AND a power gaming clickfest.  In fact, one of the best parts of the game IS the power gaming clickfest.  This is why so many people have praised the game's combat and class design.

 

If you want a pure story driven game, then I think you're talking about games by Tell Tale or something like Heavy Rain.

 

Second, to address the "realism" argument.  We're talking about a game here where if someone sings three verses of a song, then they can make skeletons pop out of the ground.  I don't really think respec is far fetched in this case.  Especially since a major theme of this game is reincarnation...maybe a respec is equivalent to remembering abilities from past lives, but in trade, forgetting things you could do before.

 

It's not hard to explain anything in a fantasy game...

[Stun]

You realize, Oh Grand Priest of Infinity Engine, that The Baldur's Gate series had multiplayer, right?

As did the Icewind Dales. So?

 

I said, with multiplayer IN MIND. You can't play the BG games multi-player and conclude that they were built for it.

 

 

Ffs... Why is respec topic always out there for all crpg out there. Not all games need or should have respec option. Games like this definitely not.

 

Story driven games like Pillars of Eternity is a role playing game, not a power gaming click fest.

Indeed. I can answer your question though. The topic is always out there because casuals make up the majority. Because games like Diablo 3, WoW, and Dragon Age have conditioned the masses. Those games are the new normal. So of course, when Obsidian floated the idea of a classic RPG, we got the usual questions. "will it be multi-player?", "Will it have cooldowns?" "can I respec my character?", "can I play with a controller?", "Why is this game in 2d"?

 

We got all these questions and more from these very same people. Thankfully, Obsidian didn't cave.

[Creslin321]

 

You realize, Oh Grand Priest of Infinity Engine, that The Baldur's Gate series had multiplayer, right?

As did the Icewind Dales. So?

 

I said, with multiplayer IN MIND. You can't play the BG games multi-player and conclude that they were built for it.

 

 

Ffs... Why is respec topic always out there for all crpg out there. Not all games need or should have respec option. Games like this definitely not.

 

Story driven games like Pillars of Eternity is a role playing game, not a power gaming click fest.

Indeed. I can answer your question though. The topic is always out there because casuals make up the majority. Because games like Diablo 3, WoW, and Dragon Age have conditioned the masses. Those games are the new normal. So of course, when Obsidian floated the idea of a classic RPG, we got the usual questions. "will it be multi-player?", "Will it have cooldowns?" "can I respec my character?", "can I play with a controller?", "Why is this game in 2d"?

 

We got all these questions and more from these very same people. Thankfully, Obsidian didn't cave.

 

 

-----------

 

Okay so I want to address your "casual theory" regarding respec.

 

I am certain that I have been playing CRPGs for just about as long as you, and maybe even longer.  I am confident in this statement because I have been playing them since Ultima IV on the Commodore 64, which is fairly close to when CRPGs started to exist at all.  I am not a "modern casual gamer" by any stretch of the imagination.

 

The fact that I like to respec my character does not make me a casual gamer "conditioned" by modern games.  As I've stated before, the concept of respeccing has existed for a long time.  Even if you couldn't respec in-game, there were always mods for it, so it's not like respeccing was unheard of in the 90's.

 

I'm sorry, but there is no moral or intellectual superiority to not having respec...it's just a preference, that's it.  I completely understand the appeal in NOT having respec, which I why I really like things like "hardcore" mode in games that give a more punishing and unforgiving experience.  But at the same time, I understand the value of having a respec option as well.

[Stun]

5th time now. We are not discussing mods. We are discussing actual game design. We cannot have a debate when one side does not understand what is being debated.

Edited March 28, 2015 by Stun