Fixing the armor min/maxing: an interesting new gameplay mechanic?

[gkathellar]

How does something like this happen? I mean all these guys are pro's. How could they create, in an effort to make a flexible armor system, a mostly useless one? Have the developers commented on these numbers at all? Do they think this is a problem?

 

Because they assume they've gotten it right, and  do in-house playtesting as if they've gotten it right.

 

I don't mean that as an insult, btw. It's very difficult not to do, and it's part of the reason why beta playtests are a thing - very few people can go into a system they've designed, bend it until it breaks, and then say, "screw me and screw my intent, that just happened." Unfortunately, Obsidian does not have infinite time or manpower to address issues, and solutions aren't always obvious or elegant. Remember accuracy? The solution there ended up being a change to the underlying math.

 

So yeah, it happens. This is a fairly benign example. There are some real horror stories out there, if you start reading up on D&D3E and Pathfinder.

[Doppelschwert]

... isn't a 'professional' business. It is a matter of math...

 

Math is serious business.

 

...so that is how it feels to quote someone out of context?

 

Anyway, let's see what they've got in store in 2 days.

[Tartantyco]

So much bull**** in this thread right now.

[wanderon]

So much bull**** in this thread right now.

 

Right now? As in it wasn't always so? 

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

 

 

I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.

Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.

Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference.

 

 

It performs as indicated - the fact that you find that insignificant does not mean the armor is not different nor that it doesn't offer another choice - you are free to choose to use what ever you wish for whatever reasons you wish that's actually the whole point of having different armors - and that insignificant difference is just another generalization of the whole min/max it's either awesome or useless mindset - nothing wrong with that either but that doesn't mean that everyone plays that way nor that the game should be balanced like that nor that it is the only way to assess the manner in which the game works or doesn't work.

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.

Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference.

It performs as indicated - the fact that you find that insignificant does not mean the armor is not different nor that it doesn't offer another choice - you are free to choose to use what ever you wish for whatever reasons you wish that's actually the whole point of having different armors - and that insignificant difference is just another generalization of the whole min/max it's either awesome or useless mindset - nothing wrong with that either but that doesn't mean that everyone plays that way nor that the game should be balanced like that nor that it is the only way to assess the manner in which the game works or doesn't work.

So even if brigadine's bonus spares you only one point less damage vs crush (not actual difference just example) than plate then its working as intended and counts as being different? Edited March 24, 2015 by DigitalCrack

[gkathellar]

Various armor types are indeed different from one another. The problem is that those differences amount to some being better and some being categorically worse.

 

It would be nice if that were less true.

[wanderon]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Armors are different now - different DR for different damage types & different recovery penalties suitable for different character concepts.

Was there some social media news from one of the devs recently or what do you mean by 'now' ?

Now - as in today - or as of the last BB build and/or also in previous builds the armors are/were different - they have different DRs for different damage types within the same categories as well as different DRs from one category to another - they have different recovery penalties from one major type to another (heavy vs medium vs light etc) and these differences offer people the opportunity to choose different armors for different class concepts - in fact even the min/max awesome vs useless crowd has decided there are two different choices - Plate or naked -

I am not a min maxer by any means. I just want mid ranged armor to actually be a benefit of some kind to wear. As it stands it actually disadvantages you. "you can still use it and be fine" shouldnt be a reason not to make it better, especially when it could be better.

YMMV

Well some opinion is founded in fact and others wishful thinking. Considering all the math and playtesting that's been done by many in this thread, it would seem what I say is less opinion and more fact based off current evidence. Maybe if you would go to the same lengths to prove otherwise you could say the same. Post me some vids of in game examples, give me something to experiment with myself like the "min-max crowd" has.

I have no desire to "prove" anything to you - the fact that armors are in fact different now is not disputable - it is a FACT to determine this all you have to do is read the descriptions of what each provides - whether or not you or anyone else feel the differences mean or don't mean anything to your playstyle is irrelevant to me - it's your game play or judge it as you wish to but the fact that these armors are different from one another remains along with the fact that they can be used effectively in the game if you choose to do so.

Why should description be the "be all end all" if it doesnt translate noticably to gameplay? Wouldn't that mean its broken to some extent? If an object is described as being specifically "x" but yet in actual gameplay/practice doesnt resemble (or descernably so) "x" then something is wrong with it. Basically if they aren't noticably different in gameplay then it doesn't matter if its supposed to be different based on description. Differences in armor are not drastic enough to matter. I am not gonna swap plate for brigadine when up agaisnt crush because even though its described as having better crush defense you would never know in gameplay cause the brigadine bonus makes such an insignificant difference.

It performs as indicated - the fact that you find that insignificant does not mean the armor is not different nor that it doesn't offer another choice - you are free to choose to use what ever you wish for whatever reasons you wish that's actually the whole point of having different armors - and that insignificant difference is just another generalization of the whole min/max it's either awesome or useless mindset - nothing wrong with that either but that doesn't mean that everyone plays that way nor that the game should be balanced like that nor that it is the only way to assess the manner in which the game works or doesn't work.

So even if brigadine's bonus spares you only one point less damage vs crush (not actual difference just example) than plate then its working as intended and counts as being different?

 

 

Yes - pretty simple huh?

[DigitalCrack]

 

 

Except that the whole discussion is about the significance of that difference and how meaningful it is. not just that they are different. But whatever agree to disagree at this point.

Edited March 24, 2015 by DigitalCrack

[Luckmann]

 

How does something like this happen? I mean all these guys are pro's. How could they create, in an effort to make a flexible armor system, a mostly useless one? Have the developers commented on these numbers at all? Do they think this is a problem?

 

Because they assume they've gotten it right, and  do in-house playtesting as if they've gotten it right.

 

I don't mean that as an insult, btw. It's very difficult not to do, and it's part of the reason why beta playtests are a thing - very few people can go into a system they've designed, bend it until it breaks, and then say, "screw me and screw my intent, that just happened." Unfortunately, Obsidian does not have infinite time or manpower to address issues, and solutions aren't always obvious or elegant. Remember accuracy? The solution there ended up being a change to the underlying math.

 

So yeah, it happens. This is a fairly benign example. There are some real horror stories out there, if you start reading up on D&D3E and Pathfinder.

 

So much this.

 

A lot of people seem to think that criticising the game systems with factual math constitutes some kind of personal insult aimed towards the developers, and that the developers need defending. But a lot of the issues are rather understandable, but that doesn't mean tha they shouldn't be examined or not be criticised, or that they should be excused.

 

It's been discussed and ironed out so it can be fixed, if not in before release, then in patches, if not in patches, then in expansions, and if not expansions, then sequels. Honest criticism and soulless calculations contribute far more than misplaced loyalty and baseless feelism.