Arcane Veil

[Bazy]

I love the concept of this ability. But it seems under powered. 

 

The BB Wizard has a base deflection of 20. With Arcane Veil it's 45.

 

For an "Oh ****" button it's not terribly effective. 

[Bazy]

And I posted this in the wrong forum... Feel free to delete. 

[Gfted1]

I moved the thread to the appropriate forum.

[rjshae]

That looks like a 25% deflection improvement; in D&D terms it's equivalent to a +5 AC boost, or better than the +4 you get with the mage armor spell.

[Jarmo]

Though mage armor pretty much lasted all day... and was still almost worthless.

Arcane veil is something that supposedly justifies carrying firearms, specifically to counter it.

 

OMG. the wizard is using his magiks to make himself as invulnerable as someone wearing low end medium armor!!

Quickly, bring out the firearms!

[Luckmann]

Though mage armor pretty much lasted all day... and was still almost worthless.

Arcane veil is something that supposedly justifies carrying firearms, specifically to counter it.

 

OMG. the wizard is using his magiks to make himself as invulnerable as someone wearing low end medium armor!!

Quickly, bring out the firearms!

 

Que? Mage Armour is awesome.. until you get those nifty AC Bracers that make no sense in BG2.

 

As for Arcane Veil, it more than doubles your Deflection. That's pretty big.

[Bazy]

 

Though mage armor pretty much lasted all day... and was still almost worthless.

Arcane veil is something that supposedly justifies carrying firearms, specifically to counter it.

 

OMG. the wizard is using his magiks to make himself as invulnerable as someone wearing low end medium armor!!

Quickly, bring out the firearms!

 

Que? Mage Armour is awesome.. until you get those nifty AC Bracers that make no sense in BG2.

 

As for Arcane Veil, it more than doubles your Deflection. That's pretty big.

 

If your wizard is getting punched in the face. 25 Def is not going to save him. 

 

the BB wizard base is 20 def... which is awful. Most basic enemies in the beta have around 50 accuracy. Powerful 80+ So...

 

Against a powerful enemy (accuracy 80ish)

1-5 graze

6-55-hit

56-100 crit

 

A 45% chance to be crit and a 60% chance to be hit. WITH ARCANE VEIL ACTIVE. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bazy

[Bazy]

That looks like a 25% deflection improvement; in D&D terms it's equivalent to a +5 AC boost, or better than the +4 you get with the mage armor spell.

Math hard too hard for me to compare to D&D. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bazy

[cmergler]

Remember each level-up will bring deflection up +3, no idea if Arcane Veil will change somehow, too. So those calculations may be a bit off in mid-game.

[Bazy]

Remember each level-up will bring deflection up +3, no idea if Arcane Veil will change somehow, too. So those calculations may be a bit off in mid-game.

It's 3 per level. BB wizard is already lvl 4. But Enemy accuracy presumably will also go up. 

 

Regardless... It's a two per rest cooldown on a characters that have the lowest health and defenses. Like someone said its supposd to be an ability lore wise that makes people switch to guns to get through it. 

 

But against any enemy with decent accuracy.... the mage is still going to take a ton of damage. Against an accuracy level of 80 (against lvl 4 BB wizard) the enemy is still guaranteed to hit at least 95% of the time, and a 45% chance to crit. Who would switch to a gun when you have a 95% chance to hit???

 

The ability is simply underwhelming for what it is supposed to do. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bazy

[Diogenes]

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

There is the Hardened Veil talent you can take later on to increase the Deflection it gives you, I think the 25 Def is probably pretty good for a lil level 1 scrub wizard.

[Jarmo]

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

 

Have to say, I'm aware I'm quite disproportionally bothered by stuff like that.

Every ooh, I'm mortally wounded, hear my last words grates me to no end.

Oh, noes, it's just that "special kind" of stab wound a potion of heal doesn't cure. 

 

So you wanted a potion of heal and a periapt of wound closure.. just so you can die comfy?

What if I slap in greater restoration, full heal, raise dead and read a scroll of resurrection? 

Nope, still all broken inside. Sniff. Died.

[Bazy]

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

There is the Hardened Veil talent you can take later on to increase the Deflection it gives you, I think the 25 Def is probably pretty good for a lil level 1 scrub wizard.

Fair enough. But it's a two per rest, short duration spell that against any decent enemy that has a negligible effect. 

Edited February 9, 2015 by Bazy

[cmergler]

I have to admit I (almost) never used Arcane Veil in the BB, because it is a per-rest ability, which I usually prefer to save for when I really feel I need it.

 

Perhaps giving it 1/encounter would be more reasonable, and certainly make it more useful.

 

Considering the lore with needing firearms I think those get penetration, so maybe make the Veil have some damage reduction, too? Say DR 3 or something, just about as much as the firearms get to penetrate?

[wuss]

 

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

There is the Hardened Veil talent you can take later on to increase the Deflection it gives you, I think the 25 Def is probably pretty good for a lil level 1 scrub wizard.

Fair enough. But it's a two per rest, short duration spell that against any decent enemy that has a negligible effect. 

 

If you already wear heavy armor and cast AV, things look different though. You might even boost your deflection to untouchable levels. It's I think already a problem, that there are builds with so high deflection that they almost never get hit by certain enemies.

To make AV halfway balanced, it should give diminishing returns I think. That is, if your deflection is very low, it should boost it considerably by perhaps 50 points, and if your deflection is high-end, it should only get boosted by perhaps 15 points or so.

[Bazy]

If you already wear heavy armor and cast AV, things look different though. You might even boost your deflection to untouchable levels. It's I think already a problem, that there are builds with so high deflection that they almost never get hit by certain enemies.To make AV halfway balanced, it should give diminishing returns I think. That is, if your deflection is very low, it should boost it considerably by perhaps 50 points, and if your deflection is high-end, it should only get boosted by perhaps 15 points or so.

It lasts a total of 20 second PER REST. There are currently a number of spells that grant character immunity for that duration that have more charges

 

Armor has no effect on deflection. High deflection builds are balanced by extremely low damage. 

 

Currently there are also spammable potions in game that would full heal you. Far more powerful than this ability. 

[rjshae]

 

 

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

There is the Hardened Veil talent you can take later on to increase the Deflection it gives you, I think the 25 Def is probably pretty good for a lil level 1 scrub wizard.

Fair enough. But it's a two per rest, short duration spell that against any decent enemy that has a negligible effect. 

If you already wear heavy armor and cast AV, things look different though. You might even boost your deflection to untouchable levels. It's I think already a problem, that there are builds with so high deflection that they almost never get hit by certain enemies.

To make AV halfway balanced, it should give diminishing returns I think. That is, if your deflection is very low, it should boost it considerably by perhaps 50 points, and if your deflection is high-end, it should only get boosted by perhaps 15 points or so.

 

They could penalize the AV using the recovery speed of the armor worn and explain it away as some sort of interference effect.

[wuss]

 

If you already wear heavy armor and cast AV, things look different though. You might even boost your deflection to untouchable levels. It's I think already a problem, that there are builds with so high deflection that they almost never get hit by certain enemies.To make AV halfway balanced, it should give diminishing returns I think. That is, if your deflection is very low, it should boost it considerably by perhaps 50 points, and if your deflection is high-end, it should only get boosted by perhaps 15 points or so.

It lasts a total of 20 second PER REST. There are currently a number of spells that grant character immunity for that duration that have more charges

 

Armor has no effect on deflection. High deflection builds are balanced by extremely low damage. 

 

Currently there are also spammable potions in game that would full heal you. Far more powerful than this ability. 

 

Immunity, really? Not against physical attacks. Being almost unhittable with a single spell even against strong enemies would definately be overpowered. 

Potions that fully heal you should be rare, otherwise something's wrong. I find them lame anyway.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some of the stuff with firearms is probably gameplay vs story stuff, kind of like when story NPCs were killed in Baldurs Gate you would be like "why don't they just take him to the temple?" It wouldn't be too balanced if it protected against everything perfectly except guns.

There is the Hardened Veil talent you can take later on to increase the Deflection it gives you, I think the 25 Def is probably pretty good for a lil level 1 scrub wizard.

Fair enough. But it's a two per rest, short duration spell that against any decent enemy that has a negligible effect. 

If you already wear heavy armor and cast AV, things look different though. You might even boost your deflection to untouchable levels. It's I think already a problem, that there are builds with so high deflection that they almost never get hit by certain enemies.

To make AV halfway balanced, it should give diminishing returns I think. That is, if your deflection is very low, it should boost it considerably by perhaps 50 points, and if your deflection is high-end, it should only get boosted by perhaps 15 points or so.

 

They could penalize the AV using the recovery speed of the armor worn and explain it away as some sort of interference effect.

 

 

 

 

Wearing a shield could be problematic, because the deflection bonus stacking with AV might be imba. You could say AV is a shield in itself that is not as beneficial if you already have shield, and of course their could be interference too. They could use a formula like deflection = shield + AV/2

[Lephys]

Or what if it boosted your DR also? +10 or something? Increased chance you won't be hit as badly, AND greater damage reduction even if you do?

 

Seems legit. Even makes more sense for the whole "OH NOES! USE GUNS!" lore.

 

I do feel like a 10-second boost to Deflection, just to get it close to average, is a little lame for a Wizard ability. Maybe it could last longer, but degrade over time? Every 5 seconds, it drops off by 5 points of Deflection? Or what if just the DR degraded? Started at like 25, and dropped 5 points with every hit or something?

 

I feel like it should be something you have to actively pierce. Not just a "free" (doesn't use spell slot) per-rest defense buff.

 

I was never much of a fan of the armor-y spells in D&D. They were bland. "It's basically armor minus the arcane spell failure penalties, except you cast it instead of wearing it, u_u..."

Edited February 10, 2015 by Lephys

[rjshae]

How about:

• give AV a higher deflection vs. ranged (+30?) and lower vs melee (+10?)
• scale down the AV deflection by the armor recovery speed

Probably getting too complicated at this point.

[aeonsim]

Early game I think it'll be a useful ability (lvl's 2-4 or so) after that it becomes less so, though as mentioned hardened veil will give it a decent boost. Also if you build a mage with Perception or Resolve your looking at upto 20 additional points of deflection.

 

Just testing it out in the Beta now a pretty average Wizard (high Int, 15 resolve/perception) at level 4 had a Def of 29 with the highest BB companion having Def of 43. With Veil and Hardened Veil that jumped to 74, with out a shield which is decent, considering the average kith enemy has an accuracy of ~50 around the Village and enemies like the spiders and wolves are lower in the 30-40's.

 

That effectively gives you a 24 Point advantage against Medreths group thus:

Miss = 1-40

Graze = 41-75

Hit = 75-100

Crit = Not possible against deflection

 

That's a 40% chance of a miss, 35% of a graze (half damage) and just a 25% chance of a hit, and you can't be critically hit. Add in a small shield and that becomes a 15% chance of being hit which should give you a reasonable amount of time to cast some other spells to help or for someone else to come and help. Add in a Bracers/Ring of deflection with another +10 and it's a 5% chance to hit, or you could have put the 10 points that went into Perception and Resolve into something else.

 

Against the spiders and other basic enemies it's a 34-40 point advantage which changes the hit tables to the following:

1-50 = Miss, 50%

51-85 = Graze 35%

86-101 = Hit 15%, with a small shield 5% chance of a hit

 

If you set a hatchet and a large shield in your second weapon set then when attacked trigger Veil + Weapon switch then you actually can't be Hit, by anything weaker than a Stone Beetle or Bear in the Beta.

Against Acc 50, Wizard (I18/R15/P15) 29 Def vs Hardened Veil +45 & Hatchet + Large Shield +30 for a total of 104, advantage of 54.

1-70 = Miss

71-101 = Graze

While if your wizard has no resolve/perception bonus the effect is:

1-60 = Miss

61-95 = Graze

96-101 = Hit, 1 in 20 hits will do fill damage.

 

You can still be hit by other non deflection based attacks but it's not terrible. A little bit higher so you didn't need to use the large shield would be nice.

Edited February 11, 2015 by aeonsim

[Bazy]

Early game I think it'll be a useful ability (lvl's 2-4 or so) after that it becomes less so, though as mentioned hardened veil will give it a decent boost. Also if you build a mage with Perception or Resolve your looking at upto 20 additional points of deflection.

 

Just testing it out in the Beta now a pretty average Wizard (high Int, 15 resolve/perception) at level 4 had a Def of 29 with the highest BB companion having Def of 43. With Veil and Hardened Veil that jumped to 74, with out a shield which is decent, considering the average kith enemy has an accuracy of ~50 around the Village and enemies like the spiders and wolves are lower in the 30-40's.

 

That effectively gives you a 24 Point advantage against Medreths group thus:

Miss = 1-40

Graze = 41-75

Hit = 75-100

Crit = Not possible against deflection

 

That's a 40% chance of a miss, 35% of a graze (half damage) and just a 25% chance of a hit, and you can't be critically hit. Add in a small shield and that becomes a 15% chance of being hit which should give you a reasonable amount of time to cast some other spells to help or for someone else to come and help. Add in a Bracers/Ring of deflection with another +10 and it's a 5% chance to hit, or you could have put the 10 points that went into Perception and Resolve into something else.

 

Against the spiders and other basic enemies it's a 34-40 point advantage which changes the hit tables to the following:

1-50 = Miss, 50%

51-85 = Graze 35%

86-101 = Hit 15%, with a small shield 5% chance of a hit

 

If you set a hatchet and a large shield in your second weapon set then when attacked trigger Veil + Weapon switch then you actually can't be Hit, by anything weaker than a Stone Beetle or Bear in the Beta.

Against Acc 50, Wizard (I18/R15/P15) 29 Def vs Hardened Veil +45 & Hatchet + Large Shield +30 for a total of 104, advantage of 54.

1-70 = Miss

71-101 = Graze

While if your wizard has no resolve/perception bonus the effect is:

1-60 = Miss

61-95 = Graze

96-101 = Hit, 1 in 20 hits will do fill damage.

 

You can still be hit by other non deflection based attacks but it's not terrible. A little bit higher so you didn't need to use the large shield would be nice.

Defensive talents.... maxing out resolve and perception for deflection... hatchet and shield.... Items slots for deflection items...

 

At this point your wizard is a just a low endurance tank. The whole point of arcane veil is so you don't have to turn your wizard into a tank to be able to take a few hits. 

 

And your reasons are just more support for my argument... switching to a shield and hatchet (which everyone can do) gives MORE permanent deflection than Arcane veil which lasts 10 seconds. 

 

And your not taking into account getting flanked or knocked down or any status ability that is likely to come from a low fortitude wizard getting punched in the face. 

 

 

You are way better off with a priest or druid granting complete immunity to the wizard. 

Edited February 11, 2015 by Bazy

[Bazy]

"Their long reload times are considered a liability in battles against foes that are too monstrous to drop with a single volley, foes that fly or move at high speed, and foes that have the power of invisibility. Despite this, some individuals do employ firearms for one specific purpose: close range penetration of the arcane Veil, a standard magical defense employed by wizards. The arcane veil is powerful, but it does not react well to the high-velocity projectiles generated by arquebuses and handguns. As a result, more wizards who previously relied on the veil and similar abjurations have turned to traditional armor for additional defense.

 

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/60438-update-5-souls-technology-and-adventuring-companies/

Edited February 11, 2015 by Bazy

[aeonsim]

Bazy stop and focus on the first part even with out boosted perception or resolve or the shield, just the acane veil + hardening at level 4 vs one of the best humanoid enemies on difficulties lower than PoD.

 

The Hardened Veil gives a 30% chance of being missed, and reduces the chance of taking full or greater damage from 80% to 36%.

 

50Acc vs 19 Def adjustment -31.

1-19 = Graze

20 - 70 = Hit

71-101 = Critical hit

 

50ACC vs 64 Def adjustment +14

1-30 = Miss

31-64 = Graze

65+ = Hit

 

Lots of the enemies are worse at hitting than that so against the smaller spiders and wolves the chance of full damage reduces to 15-20% with a 45-50% chance they will miss. That's fairly impressive, sure I'd kind of like it to be a bit better but it's still reasonably effective. As an instant oh s***t ability that's fairly decent, sure you can still be targeted by other attacks and things like flanking will shift things by 10% but it shoudl give you enough time to do something else, be it run away or cast a different spell to booster the defences further.

[Bazy]

Bazy stop and focus on the first part even with out boosted perception or resolve or the shield, just the acane veil + hardening at level 4 vs one of the best humanoid enemies on difficulties lower than PoD.

 

The Hardened Veil gives a 30% chance of being missed, and reduces the chance of taking full or greater damage from 80% to 36%.

 

50Acc vs 19 Def adjustment -31.

1-19 = Graze

20 - 70 = Hit

71-101 = Critical hit

 

50ACC vs 64 Def adjustment +14

1-30 = Miss

31-64 = Graze

65+ = Hit

 

Lots of the enemies are worse at hitting than that so against the smaller spiders and wolves the chance of full damage reduces to 15-20% with a 45-50% chance they will miss. That's fairly impressive, sure I'd kind of like it to be a bit better but it's still reasonably effective. As an instant oh s***t ability that's fairly decent, sure you can still be targeted by other attacks and things like flanking will shift things by 10% but it shoudl give you enough time to do something else, be it run away or cast a different spell to booster the defences further.

1. You can't run away... automatic disengagement attacks. Grimoire Blast would be far better for this. 

2. 50 Accuracy is fairly average. A number of enemies in beta have 80+. You only get 2 per rest you want to save it for them.

3. Would you actually consider using 1/3 of your talents points in the game to use arcane veil? 

4. Wizard's cannot afford to be hit or crit. Endurance for a level 4 Wizard is 60. That's 2 hits from a powerful enemy. (~4 from an average enemy). Lions for example hit for 60. You have a better chance of survival with a number of other mage spells. Let alone one you invest 2 talent points into. 

 

Look at is this way. Wizard's start with 10 deflection. Fighter's start with 35. The class difference alone is equal to Arcane Veil. If the veil is so powerful, then Fighter's and Paladin's must be godlike since they start with +25 deflection over a wizard. Essentially a Permanent Arcane Veil. How can you consider a spell powerful when all it does it make you equal to the base level that other classes have standard.  

 

Arcane veil should make you immune to physical damage except for firearms. And to require 33% of your talent points is absurd. 

Edited February 12, 2015 by Bazy