Sequel to Ultima Underworld out on Kickstarter now!

[Bryy]

Warren Spector's involvement makes my blood flow.

[Infinitron]

Major new update: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/othersidegames/underworld-ascendant/posts/1139509

 

[IndiraLightfoot]

Mac and Linux support is now part of the base goal. Great news!

 

And Tracy "Ravenloft" Hickman is on board as well - and part of the 750K stretch goal (then writing a novel).

[marelooke]

Mac and Linux support is now part of the base goal. Great news!

 

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon )

 

Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have.

[BruceVC]

 

Mac and Linux support is now part of the base goal. Great news!

 

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon )

 

Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have.

 

 

I have never understood why people really choose Linux over Windows, my basic argument being " why change something that is interoperable and works " 

 

But I respect your decision to base your KS funding on support for multi-platforms 

[marelooke]

 

 

Mac and Linux support is now part of the base goal. Great news!

 

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon )

 

Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have.

 

 

I have never understood why people really choose Linux over Windows, my basic argument being " why change something that is interoperable and works " 

 

But I respect your decision to base your KS funding on support for multi-platforms 

 

 

Well that depends on what you use it for, as a software developer I've never seen the appeal of using Windows, the platform is just terrible for any development that isn't tied to the Microsoft ecosystem (I've done some of the latter as well and I'd argue that even then it's not great). So the only real reason I have to keep Windows around is to play games, it would be great if I wouldn't even need it for that anymore.

[Osvir]

I would've backed but I "can't", got to hold on to my penny's for the month and the next, unfortunately.

 
Also:

spectical

 

https://www.wordnik.com/words/spectical

 

 

"Skeptical" I know, Nonek, but I couldn't resist xD

Edited February 22, 2015 by Osvir

[Nonek]

Hah, well caught friend. I wonder why I swapped the "p" and "c" around? Ah the humbling of a once sound mind, how harsh a mistress is time!

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Mac and Linux support is now part of the base goal. Great news!

 

Aha, now there's a reason for me to up my pledge above the minimum (I have a rule for myself that I never pledge more than the minimum to get the goods for any game that doens't provide a version for an open platform, so basically Linux as I don't expect game companies to start caring about the BSDs anytime soon )

 

Time to work through the updates to see if they said anything yet to alleviate the technical concerns I had concerning the feasibility of what they want to do with the budget they have.

 

 

I have never understood why people really choose Linux over Windows, my basic argument being " why change something that is interoperable and works " 

 

But I respect your decision to base your KS funding on support for multi-platforms 

 

 

Well that depends on what you use it for, as a software developer I've never seen the appeal of using Windows, the platform is just terrible for any development that isn't tied to the Microsoft ecosystem (I've done some of the latter as well and I'd argue that even then it's not great). So the only real reason I have to keep Windows around is to play games, it would be great if I wouldn't even need it for that anymore.

 

Sure I understand that thinking, I work for a large software reseller and service provider. We sell and integrate software  applications to various customers

 

The software we sell normally has a client and server component. And yes the software is tied to the Microsoft ecosystem. But I would argue thats normal if you think of all the conveniences that come with Microsoft like Active Directory and Exchange. Most corporations have adopted the Microsoft ecosystem and it really works

 

So why change what works and more importantly why take the risk of designing software that doesn't work on Microsoft and therefore limiting who your customer base could potentially be ?

[Humanoid]

You're asking "why change" but that makes the fundamental assumption that a particular company was using Microsoft in the first place. If you've been running a stable *nix platform that does everything you need for decades, why change?

[BruceVC]

You're asking "why change" but that makes the fundamental assumption that a particular company was using Microsoft in the first place. If you've been running a stable *nix platform that does everything you need for decades, why change?

 

Okay but realistically who doesn't use Microsoft as the the foundation of there IT infrastructure ? How many companies do you know of that don't have a Microsoft desktop OS and use Active Directory? And I am talking about SME's  here and  not your 10 -100 user companies ?

[marelooke]

 

You're asking "why change" but that makes the fundamental assumption that a particular company was using Microsoft in the first place. If you've been running a stable *nix platform that does everything you need for decades, why change?

 

Okay but realistically who doesn't use Microsoft as the the foundation of there IT infrastructure ? How many companies do you know of that don't have a Microsoft desktop OS and use Active Directory? And I am talking about SME's  here and  not your 10 -100 user companies ?

 

Ehm, most companies don't use Microsoft as the foundation of their (business critical) IT infrastructure for various reasons (going into those would, I'm afraid, take us waaaay off topic), those are often *nix machines or mainframes (usually a combination of both).

 

Among our developers more and more are switching away from Windows (even though Linux is officially an unsupported OS, but running it is tolerated and even encouraged by the operations people...)

 

Active Directory is just a proprietary LDAP implementation with some bells and whistles and afaik can be presented to UNIX systems as one (and vice versa, it's not all that uncommon for the "Active Directory" in a company to be a Samba server backed by LDAP).

 

I've also never seen the appeal of Exchange, it's too closely tied to Outlook (which as an email application ought to be taken out back and shot and the remains incinerated) though I have to admit the calendaring component is rather nice and as I've understood rather harder to replace by other solutions, unfortunately. But even if you want to (or "need" to) use Exchange (which has IMAP support, so you can use Exchange and still be free of Outlook) why would that suddenly mean you need to Microsoftize your entire infrastructure?

 

I never understood why it has to be "or-or", there's no reason why one cannot run Exchange without AD, or have Exchange and AD for desktop use while leaving people free to use whatever they want on their own laptop/workstation, with the advent of smartphones it's become nigh impossible to entirely lock people into a single vendor ecosystem anyway.

Not to mention that the number of Mac users tends to go up and quite often among the higher ups in corporations resulting in a more heterogeneous working environment anyway (company policy or no, you ain't gonna tell your boss to get rid of his Mac...or iPhone...), so slowly I'm seeing the MS-only shops disappear in favour of a more "whatever makes you get your work done"-attitude, which, in my book, is a lot more healthy anyway.

 

"No really, you have to use the hand-saw using a chainsaw is against company policy..."

 

Sure there are still companies clinging to total control of their IT infrastructure to the detriment of their employees, but hey, that's their problem. They'll get to catch up with the times eventually, or become obsolete.

[Infinitron]

We sent a guy to visit OtherSide personally. Here's his report: http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9788

[marelooke]

Looks like the first stretch goal will be achieved, would be really nice if the 700k goal is also met.  I ended up upping my pledge by more than I probably should have, but I'm curious as to what they can achieve and the responses in the Codex interview kinda helped alleviate some of my doubts.

[BruceVC]

Looks like the first stretch goal will be achieved, would be really nice if the 700k goal is also met.  I ended up upping my pledge by more than I probably should have, but I'm curious as to what they can achieve and the responses in the Codex interview kinda helped alleviate some of my doubts.

 

I am glad someone else noticed this, I thought the Codex article also did an excellent job at giving us more information and confidence in investing in this KS

[SupidSeep]

Looks like the first stretch goal will be achieved, would be really nice if the 700k goal is also met.

I really hope the final push will reach the 750k stretch goal!

[Endrosz]

Discarding the advice of some ("don't anger the press", I guess), Paul Neurath has spoken against recent press claims of "crowdfunding baaaeeeed". Some paragraphs:

 

Games are much like any other creative endeavor. Any film or book can come up short on expectations. Happens often enough. More than a few are cancelled by their studios or publishers before they see the light of day. Does that mean that most film makers and writers are out to scam their fans?

The Kickstarter game campaigns I've looked at are careful to call out that game development entails certain risks. That the project might get delayed, or features change, or get cut. These same risks face games not funded through Kickstarter. Plenty of publisher-funded games fall short of expectations; more than a few get cancelled.

Risks aside, the fact is that a bunch of really good games have been Kickstarted. Wasteland II, Shovel Knight, Shadowrun Returns, Divinity: Original Sin and Faster than Light to name just some. And more are on their way. It happens to be a wonderful way for fans to support indie games they want to see made. Particularly since these are often the same creative games that might otherwise struggle to get funded through traditional sources.

 

One of the updates contains some really interesting info about AR (augmented Reality), which is different from VR. I will quote the entire section, it's fascinating:

 

In high-school I played a fair bit of Dungeons & Dragons, probably more than was good for my grades. During one session while dungeon mastering for friends, it struck me that it might be great fun if the dungeon they were exploring could be made visible in front of their eyes.

A few weeks later I constructed a contraption similar to a photographer’s light box. It had a frosted pane of glass on the top surface, a flashlight under shinning up, and between these a cardboard sheet. The cardboard had cutouts for the rooms and corridors the players were walking through. As the beam of the flashlight tracked the path the party took, it illuminated a circle of light around their position.

It was a tiny step forward in offering tangible visualization, but still quite abstract. What I really wanted was some sort of holograph that would display the animated scene in 3D right on the table, so that players could sit around and watch the action as it unfolded. Keep in mind this was several years before the first Star Wars movie was released, with the ‘Let the Wookiee Win’ scene. But even after Star Wars came out, this seemed a far future pipedream of a concept.

Last year dropped the first hints that the technology to pull this off might be around the corner. Augmented Reality, AR for short, is a new approach for melding a digitally synthesized 3D image into the actual world around us. Several companies have been making announcements about their consumer AR endeavors. Couple of videos to check out:

AR headsets project into your eyes a digital image, which gets seamlessly merged with your view of the physical world around you. Potentially these images can look more solid and real than any hologram. A key part of AR is not just in the visuals, but also how the devices can read your hand motions precisely, so as to enable you to manipulate the virtual images in a natural and tactile way. It is the combination of the visual projection into the real world and tactile interaction which makes AR so promising.

Keep in mind that these consumer AR devices are still in development. It may be some time before they are consumer ready.

AR is not the same as VR, and does not provide VR’s deep immersion. It offers a different way to interact, especially suited to having virtual space in the real world around you to examine and touch. VR and AR will co-exist, offering different advantages.

For OtherSide, both technologies are an opportunity for us to explore innovative ways to extend the play experience of our games.

There are many ways one might use AR in a game such as Underworld Ascendant. One example would be to use the same sort of mechanic we already have working in the prototype for when you lock pick a treasure chest. Currently the player uses the mouse to turn a lock tumbler displayed on the laptop screen. In the AR version the tumbler would be floating a foot in front of the player, and they would use their hand to rotate the tumbler until they heard the satisfying click of the lock springing open. It’s a parallel game mechanic, but made much more tactile.

As with VR, we will be experimenting with AR to see if it might be a strong fit for Underworld Ascendant. It will be further down the road before we’d have anything to demo, but when we do, we’ll share what we have.

The original 1992 Ultima Underworld pioneered the category of immersive games, featuring the first 3D texture-mapped world to run around, several years before Doom. 3D texture-mapping on a monitor is decades past being cutting-edge. But our spirit of innovation continues, and these emerging technologies of VR and AR may enable us to yet again reinvent how players engage with games. Stay tuned!

[Luridis]

I can't take the project seriously because they're not asking for a realistic amount of money for the project they're putting forward.

 

My minimums:

 

Existing Engine 2D Game - $300,000

Existing Engine 3D Game - $1,000,000

 

New Engine 2D Game - $500,000

New Engine 3D Game - $2,000,000

 

If they're not asking for enough money they're just going to walk away from the project before it is finished. This usually comes, and quite understandably, out of the pure necessity to earn a living.

 

Edit: And I've been seriously considering adding a half million to any 3D game labeled with "RPG", purely based on the idea that RPGs have huge content by their very nature.

Edited March 3, 2015 by Luridis

[Tigranes]

They already have private funding.

[Luridis]

They already have private funding.

 

Then they (the project promoters) need to start disclosing it, and how much. With a 600k minimum, I'm not sure what to think. KS supporters are starting to hold projects at greater levels scrutiny than ever before.

[marelooke]

I can't take the project seriously because they're not asking for a realistic amount of money for the project they're putting forward.

 

My minimums:

 

Existing Engine 2D Game - $300,000

Existing Engine 3D Game - $1,000,000

 

New Engine 2D Game - $500,000

New Engine 3D Game - $2,000,000

 

If they're not asking for enough money they're just going to walk away from the project before it is finished. This usually comes, and quite understandably, out of the pure necessity to earn a living.

3D RPGs have been made for far less, it all depends on what expectations you have (Consortium gathered a bit over $70k, for example)

 

Edit: And I've been seriously considering adding a half million to any 3D game labeled with "RPG", purely based on the idea that RPGs have huge content by their very nature.

Ah, but that's where I think their savings might come from, most RPGs are a lot of work because one has to script a huge amount of possibilities (and then test them all...). If they manage to make their improvisation engine do what they're envisioning most of that scripting work would disappear I'd think.

 

 

They already have private funding.

Then they (the project promoters) need to start disclosing it, and how much. With a 600k minimum, I'm not sure what to think. KS supporters are starting to hold projects at greater levels scrutiny than ever before.

 

They have said they are keeping $200k of the studio's funds aside as a contingency measure in case their estimates are off (or there are unexpected setbacks). Not sure if there is any other funding. (though 1/3 of their estimated budget is a rather nice buffer, imho)

Edited March 3, 2015 by marelooke

[Tigranes]

 

They already have private funding.

 

Then they (the project promoters) need to start disclosing it, and how much. With a 600k minimum, I'm not sure what to think. KS supporters are starting to hold projects at greater levels scrutiny than ever before.

 

 

They don't. Divinity: OS had external funding. Broken Age and Wasteland 2 had funding exceeding their KS earnings, which they filled in mostly through sales of their own backlogs. I can't remember if there's clear details about POE and Shadowrun. Otherside have said that they have external funding, which puts them in the same camp as those other projects. I haven't read the 200k comment marelooke mentions, so I can't be sure, but I suspect that's not all of it. 

 

The point is that many projects look for funding from many sources and manage it, and there's no obligation to tell us which cents come from whom. It would be different if they had to sign with a publisher, or any other arrangement where the artistic vision of the project is compromised by the unknown funder. Should there be such an obligation? Perhaps. I think too much information for the public can easily be a bad thing, but it wouldn't hurt if all projects laid out pretty simply that some of the money comes from a bank, etc. (E.g. D:OS used a lot of Belgian government subsidy of some kind, but we didn't know until the postmortem.)

 

I suspect they didn't really think of it. It hasn't been a very well managed KS. I'm backing because I like Neurath, Looking Glass and UU, but they certainly could have raised more if they did a better job and stopped focusing on stupid "OMG BONUS SLING" / VR stuff.

[rjshae]

I went ahead and backed it, but with the expectation that the project may (~40%) flounder. I think I understand the risks, and I accept that my money may be lost. Just hoping for the best at the moment.

[marelooke]

 

 

They already have private funding.

 

Then they (the project promoters) need to start disclosing it, and how much. With a 600k minimum, I'm not sure what to think. KS supporters are starting to hold projects at greater levels scrutiny than ever before.

 

 

They don't. Divinity: OS had external funding. Broken Age and Wasteland 2 had funding exceeding their KS earnings, which they filled in mostly through sales of their own backlogs. I can't remember if there's clear details about POE and Shadowrun. Otherside have said that they have external funding, which puts them in the same camp as those other projects. I haven't read the 200k comment marelooke mentions, so I can't be sure, but I suspect that's not all of it.

 

Took me a bit to find the quote again, turns out it was in the anti-anti-crowdfunding article on http://www.underworldascendant.com/the-game/dev-updates.php (doesn't look like I can link directly to the exact post, it's titled "Time to Trash Talk Kickstarted Games?")

 

The exact paragraph went like this:

As was true at Looking Glass, we are committed to delivering on our vision. Looking Glass never bailed from a project that we had under production. The few projects that failed to reach completion had the plug pulled by folks outside of our studio, without our having a say in the decision. Let me also note that for each game we put into production, in addition to whatever is crowd funded, we are setting aside from our studio's own funds a minimum of two hundred thousand dollars as a reserve to cover contingencies. It's one measure of our commitment to deliver.

 

The point is that many projects look for funding from many sources and manage it, and there's no obligation to tell us which cents come from whom. It would be different if they had to sign with a publisher, or any other arrangement where the artistic vision of the project is compromised by the unknown funder. Should there be such an obligation? Perhaps. I think too much information for the public can easily be a bad thing, but it wouldn't hurt if all projects laid out pretty simply that some of the money comes from a bank, etc. (E.g. D:OS used a lot of Belgian government subsidy of some kind, but we didn't know until the postmortem.)

 

I suspect they didn't really think of it. It hasn't been a very well managed KS. I'm backing because I like Neurath, Looking Glass and UU, but they certainly could have raised more if they did a better job and stopped focusing on stupid "OMG BONUS SLING" / VR stuff.

Yeah, the KS has been rather shoddily managed, I suggest they contact Larian and ask those guys how it's done. Since Swen is a pretty overt Ultima fanboy I'm pretty sure he'd be happy to help

[Zoraptor]

I saw plenty of people saying that the DOS (and P: E for that matter) kickstarter was shoddily handled, at the time. People were saying that DOS should have got multiple millions, the communication on P: E was poor etc.

 

I suspect the biggest problem is kickstarter/ Early Access fatigue has well and truly kicked in so there is nowhere near as much intrinsic enthusiasm as there was a couple of years ago. Having said that they've still got just under three days to go, if they can replicate the beginning surge at the end they'd get close to the 1 million mark. Still less than it really should get in an ideal world, of course.