435 Discussion

[Bazy]

but I have a feeling that just like v257/v278 that both Perception and Resolve will be dumpable (or just left at 10) 

Why would you leave it at 10 and not go all the way to 3?

[Sensuki]

Negative Deflection and Concentration aren't really things that you want. As above though, they may be moving to integers.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Sensuki

[Bazy]

A lot of the issue with the enemy parties is just AI issues. They could use their abilities and spells more optimally, and I haven't ever seen an enemy use an item like a potion or anything either. 

I would be overjoyed to see an AI actually use a potion or item. 

[Odd Hermit]

Anyone been using low damage weapons this build? 

 

With crits being rare and the changes to damage calculation I think it makes them utter rubbish. Been using 1H normal weapons (war hammers, maces, spears, swords) in dual wielding or two handers. Haven't been using ranged much either, just not enough DPS.

 

I did on a ranger but I replaced the ranger as I felt I didn't really need to test it further after a certain point.

 

And yes, they're bad. I used the DT bypass penetrating shot with a war bow and it was still pretty meh. Although rangers are "meh" in general so it's hard to tell.

 

Everyone else was using crossbows or guns, or DT ignoring heavier 1h weapons w/shield for my melee engagers.

 

 

I still preferred harder hitting/DT ignoring weapons in the previous build as well(sneak attack gibs with the whole party were pretty funny), but now it's a no-brainer choice.

 

 

When they fix the Interrupt bug in the next patch we'll be able to test it, but I have a feeling that just like v257/v278 that both Perception and Resolve will be dumpable (or just left at 10) except on a limited number of builds - such as dual wielding Barbarians with a large Carnage AoE. As I said earlier in the thread, maybe +1 Accuracy with Interrupt on Perception would be better, as +2 Accuracy was too high, and Interrupt is reliant on good Accuracy to be effective anyway).

 

I'd say split accuracy on perception and dex - although maybe combined that might be too much? I'd also buff might to 4% damage/healing. Then buff constitution to a split between % and static bonus to health, so it's of more valuable to lower base/per level health/endurance classes. Right now con for me is a dump stat for even the more fragile classes - or perhaps especially for them as they gain less actual health and endurance from it. Might gives fort saves so I just make that loss up there.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Odd Hermit

[Sensuki]

Large change to Interrupt coming

 

It wasn't supposed to be a percentage increase from Resolve, but a flat increase. Since a lot of that stuff wasn't working correctly anyway, I had Dave make the following changes yesterday:

 

* Interrupt Strength now affects the Recovery time that is added as a result of the Interrupt. E.g. a rapier has a Weak Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 0.35 seconds. Morning stars have a Stronger Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 1 second. The time added generally corresponds to the attack speed of weapons, i.e. faster weapons have lower Interrupt Strength.

 

* Recovery penalties inflicted by Interrupts do not stack. Six guys dual-wielding clubs with 20 Perception hitting a guy simultaneously will not create an endless stack of inescapable Recovery for a target to dig themselves out of. Incoming Interrupt Recovery penalties can replace the existing penalty only if that time is longer than the remaining duration. A morning star Interrupt would replace almost any club Interrupt, but the inverse would only happen if the morning star's penalty had already ticked down more than 0.65 seconds.

 

* Interrupts end Engagement, which can allow for easier escapes.

 

* Interrupt bonus is ([Per -10] * 3). Concentration bonus is ([Res - 10] * 3). Base Concentration is 75, meaning a standard Hit with equal Per/Res values on attacker/defender has a 25% of Interrupt. Grazes subtract -25 from Interrupt, Crits add 25. Thus, on a standard Graze, there is a 0% chance of Interrupt and on a standard Crit, there is a 50% of Interrupt. A difference of 5 points between the Per and Res scores of the attacker/defender will modify the chance to Interrupt by 15%.

 

All of these values can be tuned for desired impact.

[Bazy]

Large change to Interrupt coming

 

* Interrupt Strength now affects the Recovery time that is added as a result of the Interrupt. 

 

* Recovery penalties inflicted by Interrupts do not stack. 

 

That is interesting

 

Still not sure who would want concentration other than a monk or non-fighter tank. 

Edited February 6, 2015 by Bazy

[Sensuki]

That's the very word I used on Something Awful.

 

I am interested in giving that a shot, sounds better than the current system.

[Enoch]

Interrupts ending engagement sounds like a fairly major change. 

[Endrosz]

^ Yes, and I like the the sound of it. It'll probably raise problems and bugs of its own, but interrupting is an "ability" that is available to everyone, including enemies. So after this change, Thrust of Tattered Veils (wizard) can be used as an engagement breaker as well, for example. It also makes both Per and Res less of a dump stat.

 

I would still prefer no engagement, but that ship has sailed.

Edited February 6, 2015 by Endrosz

[AndreaColombo]

I, too, find these changes interesting.

 

Sensuki: Has Josh ever said anything about their will to make enemy AI use potions and items?

 

AI not doing so was/is one of my major gripes with IE games.

Edited February 6, 2015 by AndreaColombo

[Sensuki]

I would still prefer no engagement, but that ship has sailed.

We have a mod for that

 

Sensuki: Has Josh ever said anything about their will to make enemy AI use potions and items?

No, but I haven't asked. I wouldn't be surprised if AI changes are out of scope until patches/expansion.

[AndreaColombo]

No, but I haven't asked. I wouldn't be surprised if AI changes are out of scope until patches/expansion.

 

 

I can be fine with that so long as it gets done eventually.

[Bazy]

I would also be tickled if I ran across some npcs that had food/inn buffs.

 

Are we the only ones that eat and sleep?!??!?!?!!?

Edited February 6, 2015 by Bazy

[Enoch]

^ Yes, and I like the the sound of it. It'll probably raise problems and bugs of its own, but interrupting is an "ability" that is available to everyone, including enemies. So after this change, Thrust of Tattered Veils (wizard) can be used as an engagement breaker as well, for example. It also makes both Per and Res less of a dump stat.

 

I would still prefer no engagement, but that ship has sailed.

Seems like it would dramatically weaken the Fighter class, though, given that much of what they have going for them is "lots of engagement."  Is an effective Fighter going to be contingent on pumping Res so that he/she can maintain battlefield control? 

[Bazy]

 Is an effective Fighter going to be contingent on pumping Res so that he/she can maintain battlefield control? 

I kind of hope so. 

 

I would imagine most of the time they are still going to want to keep attacking your fighter.... But how ****ing cool would it be if some guy was going for my mage... and was intercepted by my fighter.... and was like hell no, and interrupted my fighter to break engage so he could continue to go after my mage... so my mage actually had to do something besides stand there and cast offensive spells. 

 

 

ohhhhhhhhhhh

Edited February 6, 2015 by Bazy

[Endrosz]

It depends on the AI, will it be updated to handle this situation? If the AI doesn't care about the opportunity, and continues to attack its previous target, this change will definitely give an advantage to the player, who will take advantage of it as necessary. Engagement break should probably trigger an AI action evaluation.

[aeonsim]

As it stands there are several different ways to kill them at the moment, even on PoD.

Ignore the ordinary bears and use someone to distract or lock down the ogre then have everyone else charge in and focus on just one of them (using weapons they're weak against), a priest will help a lot or you'll need a lot of healing/regeneration potions and buffs like Ironskin to pull this off but it will work.

Use a Druid or Cipher to charm or dominate one or more of the bears or elder bears and once they engage focus the party on the elders.

Use the Druid, Rogue , Ranger or Wizard to slow them down and hammer them with ranged weapons or AoE.

Use a Monk, Fighter, Cipher or Druid to knock them down or back while using ranged weapons to deal with them.

Use a Cipher, Druid or Wizard to paralyse or Blind them and stack up the debuffs then just slaughter them.

Use summons to provide disposable meat shields, this is a bit harder as most of them come from the Chanter and need a a fair bit of time to get ready.

Use the protection spells send in a fighter or Paladin set up for max deflection (hatchet (+5) and large shield (+20), and sword/shield talent (+10) before spells, abilities or potions) to attract and hold there attention while everyone else attacks then when you character's endurance gets low use withdraw or beetle's shell to protect them while they heal, allowing them to continue to distract the bears for a bit

The main reason the fight is challenging is because it's a boss fight with 2 (or is it 4?) normal bears, 2 Elder bears and Ogre on PoD. Individually I don't think the Elder bears are much of a problem unless the only way you know how to fight is to just charge up with everyone and try to beat them to death.

 

As far as I'm concerned PoD is probably a little too easy at the moment for Players who use a lot of crowd control and sit back. The fights are reasonably fun but they're not requiring me to sit back and think about exactly what strategies and tactics are needed to win each one.

You are theorizing. If you had actually tested all of those methods, you would find that Charm Beast is not working properly in this build

 

 

You need to check charm beast again, it works perfectly for me. See the following video where half the Bears and Elder Bears wipe out the Ogre (Path of the Damned). Would have been better if I'd been bothered to pull the Druid back after the first Charm worked so he could do it again when it wore off.

I've tried over half the approaches I've mentioned and they work fine, (just not always with some of the alternative classes I listed).

 

Note for any one who watches it sorry but I pause like a spastic monkey :D so it's not the easiest thing to view.

 

Edited February 6, 2015 by aeonsim

[constantine]

Large change to Interrupt coming

 

It wasn't supposed to be a percentage increase from Resolve, but a flat increase. Since a lot of that stuff wasn't working correctly anyway, I had Dave make the following changes yesterday:

 

* Interrupt Strength now affects the Recovery time that is added as a result of the Interrupt. E.g. a rapier has a Weak Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 0.35 seconds. Morning stars have a Stronger Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 1 second. The time added generally corresponds to the attack speed of weapons, i.e. faster weapons have lower Interrupt Strength.

 

* Recovery penalties inflicted by Interrupts do not stack. Six guys dual-wielding clubs with 20 Perception hitting a guy simultaneously will not create an endless stack of inescapable Recovery for a target to dig themselves out of. Incoming Interrupt Recovery penalties can replace the existing penalty only if that time is longer than the remaining duration. A morning star Interrupt would replace almost any club Interrupt, but the inverse would only happen if the morning star's penalty had already ticked down more than 0.65 seconds.

 

* Interrupts end Engagement, which can allow for easier escapes.

 

* Interrupt bonus is ([Per -10] * 3). Concentration bonus is ([Res - 10] * 3). Base Concentration is 75, meaning a standard Hit with equal Per/Res values on attacker/defender has a 25% of Interrupt. Grazes subtract -25 from Interrupt, Crits add 25. Thus, on a standard Graze, there is a 0% chance of Interrupt and on a standard Crit, there is a 50% of Interrupt. A difference of 5 points between the Per and Res scores of the attacker/defender will modify the chance to Interrupt by 15%.

 

All of these values can be tuned for desired impact.

 

 

 

Whoah really cool changes ! :D

 

 

But yeah, as many have said it, Resolve has just become a dump stat for most builds

[Namutree]

 

Large change to Interrupt coming

 

It wasn't supposed to be a percentage increase from Resolve, but a flat increase. Since a lot of that stuff wasn't working correctly anyway, I had Dave make the following changes yesterday:

 

* Interrupt Strength now affects the Recovery time that is added as a result of the Interrupt. E.g. a rapier has a Weak Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 0.35 seconds. Morning stars have a Stronger Interrupt, so the Recovery added is 1 second. The time added generally corresponds to the attack speed of weapons, i.e. faster weapons have lower Interrupt Strength.

 

* Recovery penalties inflicted by Interrupts do not stack. Six guys dual-wielding clubs with 20 Perception hitting a guy simultaneously will not create an endless stack of inescapable Recovery for a target to dig themselves out of. Incoming Interrupt Recovery penalties can replace the existing penalty only if that time is longer than the remaining duration. A morning star Interrupt would replace almost any club Interrupt, but the inverse would only happen if the morning star's penalty had already ticked down more than 0.65 seconds.

 

* Interrupts end Engagement, which can allow for easier escapes.

 

* Interrupt bonus is ([Per -10] * 3). Concentration bonus is ([Res - 10] * 3). Base Concentration is 75, meaning a standard Hit with equal Per/Res values on attacker/defender has a 25% of Interrupt. Grazes subtract -25 from Interrupt, Crits add 25. Thus, on a standard Graze, there is a 0% chance of Interrupt and on a standard Crit, there is a 50% of Interrupt. A difference of 5 points between the Per and Res scores of the attacker/defender will modify the chance to Interrupt by 15%.

 

All of these values can be tuned for desired impact.

 

 

 

Whoah really cool changes ! :D

 

 

But yeah, as many have said it, Resolve has just become a dump stat for most builds

 

Nothing wrong with dump stats for builds; as long as it's not a dump stat for a class.

 

Wait... INTERRUPT ENDS ENGAGEMENT!!! Awesome.

[constantine]

I'll make a video.

 

 

ty for the video (on how DEX affects spellcasting)

 

 

I was pretty disappointed with the results of 9 points of DEX difference ... That's not 2 or 3 points, it's NINE

 

 

The difference was less than 0.5secs, of course as you said it, DEX will have better effects on longer casting times (or really slow melee-ranged weapons).

 

I hope to make accurate calculations of how faster you attack with weapon/spell per DEX point once the game is released and see if it will be worth it for my character builds.

 

But I suspect it won't be.

 

IF you can get 5 attacks where a less dexterous guy would get 4, then it may be worth it, but surely not worth it when can get 10 attacks while the other guy would get 9.

 

 

Is it worth it for casters ? For me, putting 5-6 points on an ability to get 0.20-0.75secs (depending on spell) faster casting time, is a waste of points. It wouldn't be if I got 0.80-1.50secs faster casting times.

 

 

Nevertheless, we'll have to figure out the actual numbers and see.

[Sock]

I encountered a bug where a talent I took wasn't applied. I don't know what steps I took to make it happen, but I made a fighter with weapon and shield talent. He wasn't as durable as I was expecting and I then noticed that his reflection was very low. When I removed the shield, noticed it didn't change.

 

In a different game, I made a barbarian with weapon and shield, and reflexes did change for him.

 

I'll try to figure it out this weekend, but I wanted to put it out there incase someone else can figure it out.

[constantine]

 

 

Nothing wrong with dump stats for builds; as long as it's not a dump stat for a class.

 

 

 

 

 

I may guess that anyone who stays in the back-line and avoids punishment has no use for Resolve. Just keep at 10 so not to get a negative modifier to deflection and concentration.

But you may pump it up for role-playing purposes, it may have use in dialogue checks

[aeonsim]

...

 

But yeah, as many have said it, Resolve has just become a dump stat for most builds

 

 

You do realise that if you dump (reduce below 10) resolve, your decreasing your deflection, will & your concentration? So your making your self easier to hit with weapons, easier to hit with spells and increasing the chance that when hit you'll be interrupted breaking engagement and slowing your actions?

 

I just created a lvl 4 fighter to test this and the stats he ends up with at level 3 are (20M, 18Con,14Dex,12Per, 10Int, 4Res):

Deflection 31

Will 18!

Concentration 57 (under JS's new system)

 

With 18 Will, any will based spell is going to hit or critically hit, while with concentration reduced from 75 to 57 even with a basic interrupt there will be something like a 40% chance of interrupt per attack.

[constantine]

 

...

 

But yeah, as many have said it, Resolve has just become a dump stat for most builds

 

 

You do realise that if you dump (reduce below 10) resolve, your decreasing your deflection, will & your concentration? So your making your self easier to hit with weapons, easier to hit with spells and increasing the chance that when hit you'll be interrupted breaking engagement and slowing your actions?

 

I just created a lvl 4 fighter to test this and the stats he ends up with at level 3 are (20M, 18Con,14Dex,12Per, 10Int, 4Res):

Deflection 31

Will 18!

Concentration 57 (under JS's new system)

 

With 18 Will, any will based spell is going to hit or critically hit, while with concentration reduced from 75 to 57 even with a basic interrupt there will be something like a 40% chance of interrupt per attack.

 

 

I said it on the post above that you better leave it at 10 and not get any negative modifiers. But it's coming down to the class build you are planning. My main will be a two-hander fighter and I would hate her to be interrupted, so I will put points in Resolve.

[aeonsim]

I said it on the post above that you better leave it at 10 and not get any negative modifiers. But it's coming down to the class build you are planning. My main will be a two-hander fighter and I would hate her to be interrupted, so I will put points in Resolve.

 

 

More of a neutral stat rather than a dump one then, an easily interrupted fighter/melee char who is also easy to dominate or charm would be a pain in the arse to play with. While for casters if you dump it your interrupt chance goes up and your making it easier to be dominated or charmed. That'd be scary seeing your wizard Charmed or Dominated (Very rare in IE, but possible here if you dumped Resolve and ) time to suck up your own AoE spells.