Apologies to Obsidian

[BruceVC]

Heh, these forums are an 'unsafe' place for who ? BruceVC hasn't been run off, after all.

 

Sorry Malc, I'm not going anywhere. You will continue to be subjected to my wise and pithy posts for years to come 

 

And if I did decide to leave I would make a decent post full of grandstanding explaining my reasons and why I did decide to leave 

[ruzen]

And dont forget this is Funded by US so expectations, discation, etc... ment to be. The one thing that I am gladd about is that; they didnt made turn based rpg. Sorry about those who funded Torment  . Arcanum was my last epic game and since then me and eachofyou waiting for game like this. We should be glad that Its happened and come to finalize with heated passion. Because Pillars team must be happy about the forums that people contrubuting with passion (without any payment). None of you has to be sorry about anything because this was the Devs wanted: Feedback. 

 

On personal note I would like to see more new games with old gang, maybe Troika Games reopens?

[Blarghagh]

Pruned. Yeah, we're having none of that. Keep your personal grudges out of this. Derailment with ad hominem attacks are not appreciated.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Yeah I like Stun, I can have a heated debate with him without it getting personal 

 

But Hiro the whole idea about people not wanting to apologize for anything is something worth considering, I really admire Indiras post. Huge kudos 

 

When was the last time you ever apologized for anything on these forums for example, food for thought ? Sometimes I think people think an apology or admitting you are wrong will be seen as a sign of weakness. But its not, its a sign of strength as it shows we are prepared to accept that we aren't and can't be perfect 

 

 

Oh, I've apologized many times on these forums. I certainly don't see it as a sign of weakness. But it is a question that you may want to ask yourself as well. Food for thought.

[Gorbag]

@ ruzen: They did/do want feedback. There is a number of ways feedback can sound though. 
The necessity to become thick-skinned comes naturally with any feedback request, even more so with Kickstarter. So, yeah, it's a part of the game. From what I've seen, the OE employees who participate (mostly Brandon Adler), manage to hit a sweet spot where they can be both thick skinned and not overly defensive or dismissive. I guess sometimes stuff gets through though.
I don't think there is a way to "civilize" a community aside from heavy moderation. People are who they are. They can take it down a notch for some time, but that's it. 
I don't believe in mass apologies either. Apology is a personal reaction that should not be caused by anything other than a person being sorry for something. Apologizing for everything because we don't want someone to get mad, is (at best) just a way to quickly change the tone in order to avoid escalating the conflict, and (at worst) an insincere token gesture. Either way nobody changes. That said, I have no reason to doubt the sincerity of the OP (or anyone else in particular for that matter).

Edited January 27, 2015 by Gorbag

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I don't think there is a way to "civilize" a community aside from heavy moderation.

 

 

...Which would, presumably, be very bad, because...?

[Gorbag]

 

I don't think there is a way to "civilize" a community aside from heavy moderation.

 

 

...Which would, presumably, be very bad, because...?

 

I did not presume. But yeah, it could be bad. Freedom issues aside, even aggressive feedback is feedback.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

I did not presume. But yeah, it could be bad. Freedom issues aside, even aggressive feedback is feedback.

 

On the other hand, when the agressiveness of the feedback becomes so overwhelming as to completely demolish one's desire to peruse feedback, the utility of having feedback is completely lost.

[archangel979]

 

I don't think there is a way to "civilize" a community aside from heavy moderation.

 

...Which would, presumably, be very bad, because...?

 

Because of this (especially the underlined part):

"Do you see the feedback you get from the community as a form of Open Development?

 

Brian Fargo Yes, definitely. If you're working in a creative industry, it's important to have an honest and open communication with everybody. Everyone should be critical but in a positive way, and you can then take the helpful feedback to make the game better. Putting the game out to the audience… Well, people are extremely honest. They don't care how the recipient of their criticism might feel (laughs). So sometimes it can be pretty harsh, but it's definitely very valuable, too. The community helped us a lot to make the game better."

 

EDIT: It seems people misunderstood the point of my post so I extended the underline.

Edited January 27, 2015 by archangel979

[aluminiumtrioxid]

Because of this (especially the underlined part):

"Do you see the feedback you get from the community as a form of Open Development?

 

Brian Fargo Yes, definitely. If you're working in a creative industry, it's important to have an honest and open communication with everybody. Everyone should be critical but in a positive way, and you can then take the helpful feedback to make the game better. Putting the game out to the audience… Well, people are extremely honest. They don't care how the recipient of their criticism might feel (laughs). So sometimes it can be pretty harsh, but it's definitely very valuable, too. The community helped us a lot to make the game better."

 

 

I don't really believe people are inherently incapable of voicing criticism without descending into a frothing frenzy of sh*t-flinging and verbal abuse.

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gorbag]

@aluminiumtrioxid: Situations like these arise and collapse by themselves, followed by some quiet time and then another commotion. Mods can help, but there's always the risk of pruning negative feedback along with those aggressive/blunt comments (sometimes there is a valid reason for people feeling that way). As for your second comment: some are indeed incapable, some just communicate that way on the internet or try too hard to be seen or heard.

@archangel: What's the guy supposed to say?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

As for your second comment: some are indeed incapable, some just communicate that way on the internet or try too hard to be seen or heard.

 

Which should be treated as par for the course, because...?

[Rhaeg]

Ah great, an apology thread, that's a very good place for me to make my first post here!

 

*looks away from monitor in shame while typing this*

 

Aye, I need to apologise to Obsidian as well, for I have sinned greatly... I'm not sure how to tell this, but... I have only found out about this game about a week ago, only to find out about all of this Kickstarter business that was started up and was already closed months ago. And now I see all these forum people with cool backer emblems and such and it will be immediately clear that I sinned by not backing up this great game from the start. All I can hope now is that I am not given a bright red Forum Badge o' Shame or some such. And of course I have started trying to repent by preordering the Champ edition on Steam! 

 

The bad part is that I used to be a big fan of all the IE games. Baldur's Gate was the game that really got me into cRPGs and the first game in the genre that really impressed me on various fronts. I even followed Obsidian a bit after that and played KOTOR2 (such excellent writing, Kreia is still easily the best NPC I've seen in a cRPG) and Alpha Protocol, but for some reason they fell of my radar after that. Also, I do not buy a whole lot of games and do not read many game news sites and such. I guess this is how all of this happened.

 

So there you have it folks, a confession full of shame and even more shame. May the great Obsidian forgive me!

 

[Gorbag]

 

As for your second comment: some are indeed incapable, some just communicate that way on the internet or try too hard to be seen or heard.

 

Which should be treated as par for the course, because...?

 

By no means always and certainly never tolerated. But sometimes what they don't say is more valuable than what they do. Other times they are just being trolls or a-holes.

[BruceVC]

 

Because of this (especially the underlined part):

"Do you see the feedback you get from the community as a form of Open Development?

 

Brian Fargo Yes, definitely. If you're working in a creative industry, it's important to have an honest and open communication with everybody. Everyone should be critical but in a positive way, and you can then take the helpful feedback to make the game better. Putting the game out to the audience… Well, people are extremely honest. They don't care how the recipient of their criticism might feel (laughs). So sometimes it can be pretty harsh, but it's definitely very valuable, too. The community helped us a lot to make the game better."

 

 

I don't really believe people are inherently incapable of voicing criticism without descending into a frothing frenzy of sh*t-flinging and verbal abuse.

 

 

I really agree with this sentiment

 

Personally I don't believe the argument " its the Internet, thats how it is, " 

 

A level of decorum can and should be generally  respected on forums

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

 

As for your second comment: some are indeed incapable, some just communicate that way on the internet or try too hard to be seen or heard.

 

Which should be treated as par for the course, because...?

 

By no means always and certainly never tolerated. But sometimes what they don't say is more valuable than what they do. Other times they are just being trolls or a-holes.

 

 

Please, do elaborate, I'm not sure I follow you.

[archangel979]

@archangel: What's the guy supposed to say?

That any feedback is useful feedback and closing down forum a lot prevents that. I need to find another quote from some dev I read some time ago. It was even better and talked about how even people not being nice when presenting feedback obviously have lots of passion to do so and should be at least heard.

Closing down communication to all kinds of feedback is always a bad idea.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

@archangel: What's the guy supposed to say?

That any feedback is useful feedback and closing down forum a lot prevents that. I need to find another quote from some dev I read some time ago. It was even better and talked about how even people not being nice when presenting feedback obviously have lots of passion to do so and should be at least heard.

Closing down communication to all kinds of feedback is always a bad idea.

 

 

How lucky that nobody was advocating for that, then!

[Blarghagh]

Mods can help, but there's always the risk of pruning negative feedback along with those aggressive/blunt comments (sometimes there is a valid reason for people feeling that way).

 

This is indeed a very pressing concern for us at all times. Generally, if posts contain actual feedback and hostility that is easy to seperate, we tend to choose editing posts by removing the hostility and keeping the feedback, though sometimes it just can't be helped. There have even been a handful of occassions where devs themselves asked us to remove extremely blunt criticism and we refused for that very reason.

[Gorbag]

@Bruce: But that is indeed the internet. That is what is given. The matter is how you deal with it and the consequences of going one way or the other.  

@aluminiumtrioxide: If I suddenly start to scream aloud that the solid UI sux, it's too big, clunky and old-fashioned and hides my game, followed by a lot of complaints and probably a few insults for good measure, it may be a reason to believe that it's current version is too obscuring or not well placed, or (if there are a lot of people sharing this sentiment and there's still resource to do it) it may be a reason to implement another optional design.
Could this complaint be done without the aggression? Sure, it would be much better. Is the feedback valuable nevertheless? I think so. 

Please don't get hung on the example guys.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

@aluminiumtrioxide: If I suddenly start to scream aloud that the solid UI sux, it's too big, clunky and old-fashioned and hides my game, followed by a lot of complaints and probably a few insults for good measure, it may be a reason to believe that it's current version is too obscuring or not well placed, or (if there are a lot of people sharing this sentiment and there's still resource to do it) it may be a reason to implement another optional design.

Could this complaint be done without the aggression? Sure, it would be much better. Is the feedback valuable nevertheless? I think so. 

 

 

So, basically, feedback is always valuable, but agressive feedback is less valuable than the same feedback without the agression.

 

Isn't it in everybody's interest then to incentivize civilized behavior?

Edited January 27, 2015 by aluminiumtrioxid

[Gorbag]

@aluminiumtrioxide: Sure. But, back to my initial post, you can't really civilize people (and that's not what we are here for anyway). You can either allow them to post their thoughts the way they come, while pruning the worst stuff and giving warnings here and there, or you can delete their feedback entirely and/or start flinging bans left and right.

[Sanquiz]

Already kissed?

[aluminiumtrioxid]

@aluminiumtrioxide: Sure. But, back to my initial post, you can't really civilize people (and that's not what we are here for anyway). You can either allow them to post their thoughts the way they come, while pruning the worst stuff and giving warnings here and there, or you can delete their feedback entirely and/or start flinging bans left and right.

 

Or you could just have a multi-tiered infraction system where repeated offenders and those responsible for creating a consistently toxic atmosphere quickly find themselves banned unless they change their ways, but occasional missteps don't draw serious consequences?

[Stun]

 

@aluminiumtrioxide: Sure. But, back to my initial post, you can't really civilize people (and that's not what we are here for anyway). You can either allow them to post their thoughts the way they come, while pruning the worst stuff and giving warnings here and there, or you can delete their feedback entirely and/or start flinging bans left and right.

 

Or you could just have a multi-tiered infraction system where repeated offenders and those responsible for creating a consistently toxic atmosphere quickly find themselves banned unless they change their ways, but occasional missteps don't draw serious consequences?

 

^A system like that works. I've seen it in action. Although usually it's a bit simpler than you're describing it.

 

Basically it's a 3 strikes rule. 3 strikes and you're suspended for a period of time (3 days, 5 days, whatever). 3 suspensions and you're gone for good.

 

Essentially a system like this gives posters plenty of time to.... learn how to chill out. Still has some problems though. People are people and they'll game the system; or whine about unfairness; or bitch about moderators they think are "out to get them" etc.

Edited January 27, 2015 by Stun