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Original IE Mechanics: Health and Death, no endurance

#mechanics death health

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#41
Lephys

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In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected).


Now I kind of wanna make a game in which the main plot conflict is "why is everyone suddenly not dying anymore?", and it turns out it's because someone decided everyone should live forever and got resurrection magic working. But, people keep aging, and having more children, and resources get scarce, so it turns into this dystopian world anyway.
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#42
Stun

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Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.

But right now it just seems like they removed heal spells for no reason but to give us "tactical combat", or whatever. And no, I'm *not* fine with that.

Edited by Stun, 30 January 2015 - 05:21 PM.

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#43
Heijoushin

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In general I like the health/endurance system it's a nice part way point between realism and resurrection magic which just does not make sense as it's been implemented in any game I've played (why does any one die if they can be resurrected).

Now I kind of wanna make a game in which the main plot conflict is "why is everyone suddenly not dying anymore?", and it turns out it's because someone decided everyone should live forever and got resurrection magic working. But, people keep aging, and having more children, and resources get scarce, so it turns into this dystopian world anyway.

There's an amazing fantasy book with just that storyline. Its called The End Specialist. I highly recommend it!

Interesting discussion. I will withhold my comments until I've played the game though.

#44
Lephys

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Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.


I would imagine for the same reason that we can create nuclear reactions to generate enormous explosions, but have yet to discover a way to use nuclear bombs to mend wounds or fix a broken arm.

Magic is not just some all-purpose energy by definition. A given author of a given world could define it that way, but then, he has to have reasons for it to be that way, too. I hardly see people explaining in detail how and why magical energy can be used to undo wounds and fix bones, other than "So you can have fun undoing damage in combat and tossing HPs at people! 8D!", which I don't see as any more reasonable of an explanation than having it gone "because tactical combat." Just for what it's worth.

In the most objectively-treated approaches I've seen, healing magic is quite limited. In Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, for example, people can heal wounds, but it still uses the wounded person's own biology to do so. So, if someone was cut in half, for example, a channeler (magic user) could probably heal them, but they'd probably then die from the exertion on their body from stitching their two halves back together in a matter of seconds. Not only that, but it takes a ton out of the caster, too.
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#45
GreyFox

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Also lets keep in mind that we still know next to nothing about the game world's plot and lore. I've been criticizing the lack of healing magic/resurrection but that's strictly from a gameplay/philosophy viewpoint. If PoE's story/lore manages to believably explain to us why priests can call forth massive beams of energy from the sky to smite every enemy on the battlefield, but at the same time they can't muster the magical energy needed to mend a wound, or fix a broken arm, then I'll be OK with no healing magic.


I would imagine for the same reason that we can create nuclear reactions to generate enormous explosions, but have yet to discover a way to use nuclear bombs to mend wounds or fix a broken arm.

Magic is not just some all-purpose energy by definition. A given author of a given world could define it that way, but then, he has to have reasons for it to be that way, too. I hardly see people explaining in detail how and why magical energy can be used to undo wounds and fix bones, other than "So you can have fun undoing damage in combat and tossing HPs at people! 8D!", which I don't see as any more reasonable of an explanation than having it gone "because tactical combat." Just for what it's worth.

In the most objectively-treated approaches I've seen, healing magic is quite limited. In Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time series, for example, people can heal wounds, but it still uses the wounded person's own biology to do so. So, if someone was cut in half, for example, a channeler (magic user) could probably heal them, but they'd probably then die from the exertion on their body from stitching their two halves back together in a matter of seconds. Not only that, but it takes a ton out of the caster, too.

 

 

 

Eh it's not about using the same exact thing but rather the technology associated with it....for your example....http://science.howst...ar-medicine.htm

 

Radiation therapy, while not a nuclear bomb, is clearly derived from the same/related science discoveries and is being put to use for reasons other than destruction.

 

So clearly it's not hard to imagine taking a form of divine energy and using it for harm or help.


Edited by GreyFox, 06 February 2015 - 03:49 PM.


#46
Stun

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Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.
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#47
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Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.

Context is key. The mechanics of the game support the world, it's actually really cool.



#48
Lephys

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Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'.


Well, to be even fairer, as abstracted as "endurance" is, a Monster Energy drink and a Slim Jim would heal "Endurance," but would not stitch up your actual wounds.

And fair enough about 8-hours rest, but that's not really nonsensical in function, it's merely obviously exaggerated. As, eventually,, rest would heal your wounds. Or rather, rest + nutrients-and-such = healing.

Eh it's not about using the same exact thing but rather the technology associated with it....for your example....http://science.howst...ar-medicine.htm
 
Radiation therapy, while not a nuclear bomb, is clearly derived from the same/related science discoveries and is being put to use for reasons other than destruction.
 
So clearly it's not hard to imagine taking a form of divine energy and using it for harm or help.


I get that. Just... you can't use radiation to perform any task you want. Yet, magical energy can become fire, or lightning, or can alter your mind, or can speed you up, etc. So the rules of raw magical energy don't seem to follow the rules of any real-world energies very well.

Plus, radiation can aid in lots of "healing," but it can't knit your flesh back together and stop your bleeding. Thus, my example, more simply/immediately, was just to point out that just because some energy is powerful enough to do something doesn't automatically make its versatility equal to its power.

Anywho, magical energy that can heal wounds is no more inherently wrong than magical energy that can't. It's just two different options for lore, really. Nothing really makes magical healing an obviously existent thing, is all.
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#49
Stun

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Well, to be even fairer, as abstracted as "endurance" is, a Monster Energy drink and a Slim Jim would heal "Endurance," but would not stitch up your actual wounds.

No. Endurance in PoE is not a synonym for "energy". That is to say, your endurance can be Zero and it won't stop your barbarian from being able to activate a barbarian sprint, or your fighter from effectively engaging 2 more enemies and then activating his knockdown abilities.

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Edited by Stun, 06 February 2015 - 06:21 PM.


#50
Bazy

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Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

 

Kind of like real life? 

 

A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).


Edited by Bazy, 07 February 2015 - 03:39 AM.


#51
Elerond

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Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.

 

Josh Sawyer has said that his goal is not create system that simulates real world, which is probably why characters heal in max health 8 hour rest instead of something like healing system that you can find from games like Darklands (which is by chance one of the favorite games of all time that Sawyer has listed) where healing takes weeks of game time.

 

Healing stamina (former endurance) and health may be in same field of science but they are quite opposite ends of that's field's spectrum. As stamina tell us character's short time ability to performance, where health what their condition is when we look long run.

 

If I  had to guess their decision to go this route is because of storytelling and world building aspects and these is purely gamic mechanics were to invent so that gameplay is not too different from those in IE games even if setting is such that magic that can heal life threating wounds or cure death don't exist (or at least such magic is very rare and limited). 



#52
Stun

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Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Kind of like real life? 
 
A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).

If it was really like that, it would be pretty cool. But as it stands, under POE's system that wrestler can sprint around the ring, do body slams and pile drivers endlessly, for an unlimited amount of time without losing a single point of endurance.....as long as he doesn't get hit.
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#53
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I've said it before but it really is going to take some sort of story to get me to believe that I can heal up in 8 hours when the "healing" only affects my stamina.

 

It really seems like a doing it different just 'cuz type of thing that will have minor or rarely referenced reasons as to why in the lore/story. I'd be really if not pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong on this. Either way I can't wait to hear it for the lulz or for teh coolz one or the other.



#54
Bazy

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Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Kind of like real life? 
 
A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).

 

If it was really like that, it would be pretty cool. But as it stands, under POE's system that wrestler can sprint around the ring, do body slams and pile drivers endlessly, for an unlimited amount of time without losing a single point of endurance.....as long as he doesn't get hit.

 

Actually there is also a fatigue mechanic in the game like the IE games. 

 

Also magic. 


Edited by Bazy, 07 February 2015 - 11:58 PM.


#55
Emc2

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I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

 

I can understand why unrealistic stuff may bother some people but it's fictional world, fictional rules. If you kick a rock it might not even touch the ground ever again, according to the world's laws of physics. If you are wondering why they had to put in the endurance mechanic I can only think of a few reasons: It was required for the sake of consistent lore, They think it is a good game mechanic (subjective), or they felt like they had to try something different/unique. I'm personally leaning towards the first 2 explanations. I can't guarantee they actually will explain the lack of H.Magic at any point in the game.

 

I'm not saying this topic is not worth discussing. In the end it's just a matter of preference. I'm just presenting my thoughts.



#56
Stun

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I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

No thanks. We shouldn't have to "imagine" or "make up" the game's lore. That's the developer's job, remember? And if they fail, then that's a black mark on the game itself.

As of right now, we have no such game world explanation to go by. Instead, all we have is Josh Sawyer's mechanics explanation, which is overly cynical and gamey in my opinion. The reason for the health + endurance mechanic is to simply prevent rest spamming and save scumming via layers of padding and "second chances" (if you go down in a fight you're not dead! you're just out of endurance for a while! So no need to reload! Yay!)

Edited by Stun, 09 February 2015 - 06:49 PM.


#57
Lephys

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No. Endurance in PoE is not a synonym for "energy". That is to say, your endurance can be Zero and it won't stop your barbarian from being able to activate a barbarian sprint, or your fighter from effectively engaging 2 more enemies and then activating his knockdown abilities.


Truly? Can you show me a video of this 0-Endurance Barbarian activating Wild Sprint, or this 0-Endurance Fighter engaging (at all,much less effectively engaging) any number of enemies or activating his knockdown? Because that's pretty remarkable that those people whilst lying incapacitated upon the ground.

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.


Yes. That sounds nothing like energy. Something that, when you're out of it, you collapse in a lifeless heap, but don't die. But, over time, it recharges, and you're able to do things so long as you have more than 0 of it. What on earth was I thinking...

*eye roll*

So it isn't perfectly simulated. Hardly means it's entirely dissimilar to energy/stamina/endurance. Besides, all I said was that it was so abstracted, snacks would most likely heal it, rather than your health. Heck, by your reasoning, hit points are "not just a synonym for health." Because, you can have pneumonia and be in poor health, but in a video game, you wouldn't have lost any hitpoints, because you ddidn't get stricken by a sword. There's a lot more to health than "damage," but that doesn't mean hitpoints aren't an abstracted form of health.

#58
Diogenes

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Hit Points/Endurance are an abstraction in the interest of making the game fun, as opposed to a simulationist system where you are hit by a sword in your first battle of the game, roll to see if you die outright, roll for blood loss, roll to see if you get an infection, roll for convalescence, hope you have enough supplies to get back to town in your weakened state, roll to see if wild animals pick up the scent of your fresh wound...


Edited by Diogenes, 09 February 2015 - 11:56 PM.

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#59
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I'm fairly confident that the reasoning was along the following lines:

  • If healing is allowed via spells, then encounters will have to be balanced with the assumption that the player will have in-combat healing.  Assuming that these spells are limited to one class, it would "imbalance" the classes (contradicting a design goal).
  • Many IE players always reload from a save when someone dies rather than using resurrection magic, rendering these spells moot.  This is especially true at low levels (where this game takes place), when a dead character means playing inventory tetris to get the body and equipment into inventory, walking back to the template, and paying the fee -- a big hassle compared to simply reloading the game.
  • If players don't heal to 100% when combat ends then balancing the game becomes far more difficult -- some players will rest after every encounter (no matter how hard you make this) while others will only rest when seriously damaged.  This variation in playstyles makes it harder to balance / day abilities and "rest spamming" is considered to be the "wrong way to play the game" by a number of people.  By automatically healing everyone reduces this variation, simplifying balancing.

Those were in fact, the stated reasons.


All of them ridiculous.

- The first one is easily rendered moot with potions, scrolls and items that anyone can use. Radical concept, I know! And RPG fans love loot, so it's a win/win alternative.


-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer philosophy - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to scrap total party wipes in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd, 4th, or 5th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

-The third one shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone who knows better. Sawyer himself developed Icewind Dale 2 - a game that only took 10 months to make -and- didn't suffer from any balance issues, -and- didn't see players resting after every battle -and- didn't have to have 2 kinds of health bars to prevent 'degenerate reloading'.


Incidentally, if these are the *actual* reasons why they introduced an endurance bar (instead of just being the explanation given for public consumption) then the design is already a failure. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm finding myself both resting more frequently and reloading more frequently in this beta than I do in ANY of the IE games. The addition of a stamina bar is not making any difference whatsoever.

 

1) and then with potions and all additionally having a healer makes things a lot more easier still

 

2) your assumptions that "role players" are the people who care for mechanics etc. are wrong. I know many role players that aren;t too bothered with mechanics but with story, setting and impact of decisions and actual role playing. No powerbuild min-maxing crap but making chars for story reasons. Role Players are not a unified group that shares same likes/dislikes. They are different across the board

 

3) IWD2 was based on AD&D which set all the foundations. They just copy/pasted it into game environment so it was a lot easier balancing and making from scratch then thinking everything, including combat mechanics, from ground up. It wasn't also balanced. Summon Undead anyone before it was nerfed in a patch ? You could solo entire game just summoning crap (because summons scaled with difficulty too). They had classes, resolution rules, racial bonuses and limitations, spells, rules on gaining spells and all other stuff. That takes humungous amount of work out of developement.

 

4) If the addition of a stamina does not make a difference then why hate on it in the first place? 


Edited by Killyox, 10 February 2015 - 02:51 AM.


#60
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I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

No thanks. We shouldn't have to "imagine" or "make up" the game's lore. That's the developer's job, remember? And if they fail, then that's a black mark on the game itself.

As of right now, we have no such game world explanation to go by. Instead, all we have is Josh Sawyer's mechanics explanation, which is overly cynical and gamey in my opinion. The reason for the health + endurance mechanic is to simply prevent rest spamming and save scumming via layers of padding and "second chances" (if you go down in a fight you're not dead! you're just out of endurance for a while! So no need to reload! Yay!)

 

And I thought roleplayers ARE supposed to actually imagine stuff. What cannot be presented by game itself has to be imagined.







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