Original IE Mechanics: Health and Death, no endurance

[Elerond]

Also lets put things in perspective. In the specific fantasy world we're discussing, There are magicks that heal endurance... which is the same field of 'science'. So yes, a better game world explanation is needed to explain why nothing cures health.... well, nothing but a simply 8 hours of rest, which amazingly enough, cures all ailments.

 

Josh Sawyer has said that his goal is not create system that simulates real world, which is probably why characters heal in max health 8 hour rest instead of something like healing system that you can find from games like Darklands (which is by chance one of the favorite games of all time that Sawyer has listed) where healing takes weeks of game time.

 

Healing stamina (former endurance) and health may be in same field of science but they are quite opposite ends of that's field's spectrum. As stamina tell us character's short time ability to performance, where health what their condition is when we look long run.

 

If I  had to guess their decision to go this route is because of storytelling and world building aspects and these is purely gamic mechanics were to invent so that gameplay is not too different from those in IE games even if setting is such that magic that can heal life threating wounds or cure death don't exist (or at least such magic is very rare and limited). 

[Stun]

 

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Kind of like real life? 

 

A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).

 

If it was really like that, it would be pretty cool. But as it stands, under POE's system that wrestler can sprint around the ring, do body slams and pile drivers endlessly, for an unlimited amount of time without losing a single point of endurance.....as long as he doesn't get hit.

[GreyFox]

I've said it before but it really is going to take some sort of story to get me to believe that I can heal up in 8 hours when the "healing" only affects my stamina.

 

It really seems like a doing it different just 'cuz type of thing that will have minor or rarely referenced reasons as to why in the lore/story. I'd be really if not pleasantly surprised if I'm wrong on this. Either way I can't wait to hear it for the lulz or for teh coolz one or the other.

[Bazy]

 

 

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Kind of like real life? 

 

A wrestler can get winded in 5 minutes (Endurance). Take a few minute break and get back to it (End of combat). But each time he does it takes a toll on his health. And can only do that so many times before he needs a more proper rest (Health).

 

If it was really like that, it would be pretty cool. But as it stands, under POE's system that wrestler can sprint around the ring, do body slams and pile drivers endlessly, for an unlimited amount of time without losing a single point of endurance.....as long as he doesn't get hit.

 

Actually there is also a fatigue mechanic in the game like the IE games. 

 

Also magic. 

Edited February 8, 2015 by Bazy

[Emc2]

I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

 

I can understand why unrealistic stuff may bother some people but it's fictional world, fictional rules. If you kick a rock it might not even touch the ground ever again, according to the world's laws of physics. If you are wondering why they had to put in the endurance mechanic I can only think of a few reasons: It was required for the sake of consistent lore, They think it is a good game mechanic (subjective), or they felt like they had to try something different/unique. I'm personally leaning towards the first 2 explanations. I can't guarantee they actually will explain the lack of H.Magic at any point in the game.

 

I'm not saying this topic is not worth discussing. In the end it's just a matter of preference. I'm just presenting my thoughts.

[Stun]

I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

No thanks. We shouldn't have to "imagine" or "make up" the game's lore. That's the developer's job, remember? And if they fail, then that's a black mark on the game itself.

 

As of right now, we have no such game world explanation to go by. Instead, all we have is Josh Sawyer's mechanics explanation, which is overly cynical and gamey in my opinion. The reason for the health + endurance mechanic is to simply prevent rest spamming and save scumming via layers of padding and "second chances" (if you go down in a fight you're not dead! you're just out of endurance for a while! So no need to reload! Yay!)

Edited February 10, 2015 by Stun

[Lephys]

No. Endurance in PoE is not a synonym for "energy". That is to say, your endurance can be Zero and it won't stop your barbarian from being able to activate a barbarian sprint, or your fighter from effectively engaging 2 more enemies and then activating his knockdown abilities.

Truly? Can you show me a video of this 0-Endurance Barbarian activating Wild Sprint, or this 0-Endurance Fighter engaging (at all,much less effectively engaging) any number of enemies or activating his knockdown? Because that's pretty remarkable that those people whilst lying incapacitated upon the ground.

 

Endurance in PoE is more like....flesh wounds.... or some strange, measurable, pain threshold meter that, without any sort of explanation, goes right back up to 100% the moment there's no more enemies visible.

Yes. That sounds nothing like energy. Something that, when you're out of it, you collapse in a lifeless heap, but don't die. But, over time, it recharges, and you're able to do things so long as you have more than 0 of it. What on earth was I thinking...

 

*eye roll*

 

So it isn't perfectly simulated. Hardly means it's entirely dissimilar to energy/stamina/endurance. Besides, all I said was that it was so abstracted, snacks would most likely heal it, rather than your health. Heck, by your reasoning, hit points are "not just a synonym for health." Because, you can have pneumonia and be in poor health, but in a video game, you wouldn't have lost any hitpoints, because you ddidn't get stricken by a sword. There's a lot more to health than "damage," but that doesn't mean hitpoints aren't an abstracted form of health.

[Diogenes]

Hit Points/Endurance are an abstraction in the interest of making the game fun, as opposed to a simulationist system where you are hit by a sword in your first battle of the game, roll to see if you die outright, roll for blood loss, roll to see if you get an infection, roll for convalescence, hope you have enough supplies to get back to town in your weakened state, roll to see if wild animals pick up the scent of your fresh wound...

Edited February 10, 2015 by Diogenes

[Killyox]

 

I'm fairly confident that the reasoning was along the following lines:

• If healing is allowed via spells, then encounters will have to be balanced with the assumption that the player will have in-combat healing.  Assuming that these spells are limited to one class, it would "imbalance" the classes (contradicting a design goal).
• Many IE players always reload from a save when someone dies rather than using resurrection magic, rendering these spells moot.  This is especially true at low levels (where this game takes place), when a dead character means playing inventory tetris to get the body and equipment into inventory, walking back to the template, and paying the fee -- a big hassle compared to simply reloading the game.
• If players don't heal to 100% when combat ends then balancing the game becomes far more difficult -- some players will rest after every encounter (no matter how hard you make this) while others will only rest when seriously damaged.  This variation in playstyles makes it harder to balance / day abilities and "rest spamming" is considered to be the "wrong way to play the game" by a number of people.  By automatically healing everyone reduces this variation, simplifying balancing.

Those were in fact, the stated reasons.

 

 

All of them ridiculous.

 

- The first one is easily rendered moot with potions, scrolls and items that anyone can use. Radical concept, I know! And RPG fans love loot, so it's a win/win alternative.

 

 

-The second one is typical Josh Sawyer philosophy - worrying about the lowest common denominator instead of the *role player*. Hey Josh, Here's a news flash for you: In PoE, a total party wipe makes players reload their game, too. So what are you gonna do about that? Hmm? Are you going to scrap total party wipes in the sequel to eliminate such degenerate save-scumming? Or are you just gonna expand on your design and introduce a 3rd, 4th, or 5th type of health bar to make reloading even more rare?

 

-The third one shouldn't be taken seriously by anyone who knows better. Sawyer himself developed Icewind Dale 2 - a game that only took 10 months to make -and- didn't suffer from any balance issues, -and- didn't see players resting after every battle -and- didn't have to have 2 kinds of health bars to prevent 'degenerate reloading'.

 

 

Incidentally, if these are the *actual* reasons why they introduced an endurance bar (instead of just being the explanation given for public consumption) then the design is already a failure. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm finding myself both resting more frequently and reloading more frequently in this beta than I do in ANY of the IE games. The addition of a stamina bar is not making any difference whatsoever.

 

1) and then with potions and all additionally having a healer makes things a lot more easier still

 

2) your assumptions that "role players" are the people who care for mechanics etc. are wrong. I know many role players that aren;t too bothered with mechanics but with story, setting and impact of decisions and actual role playing. No powerbuild min-maxing crap but making chars for story reasons. Role Players are not a unified group that shares same likes/dislikes. They are different across the board

 

3) IWD2 was based on AD&D which set all the foundations. They just copy/pasted it into game environment so it was a lot easier balancing and making from scratch then thinking everything, including combat mechanics, from ground up. It wasn't also balanced. Summon Undead anyone before it was nerfed in a patch ? You could solo entire game just summoning crap (because summons scaled with difficulty too). They had classes, resolution rules, racial bonuses and limitations, spells, rules on gaining spells and all other stuff. That takes humungous amount of work out of developement.

 

4) If the addition of a stamina does not make a difference then why hate on it in the first place? 

Edited February 10, 2015 by Killyox

[Killyox]

 

I have said this before but i'll say it again anyway: use your imagination. You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer. The force just happens to be named "endurance". The 8-hour healing miracle can be explained this way as well: the force, since it has nothing else to do since you are not fighting anyone, heals your wounds while you are inactive, just to keep itself busy. Of course this explanation can be pretty weird, but it still might help some people (at least me).

No thanks. We shouldn't have to "imagine" or "make up" the game's lore. That's the developer's job, remember? And if they fail, then that's a black mark on the game itself.

 

As of right now, we have no such game world explanation to go by. Instead, all we have is Josh Sawyer's mechanics explanation, which is overly cynical and gamey in my opinion. The reason for the health + endurance mechanic is to simply prevent rest spamming and save scumming via layers of padding and "second chances" (if you go down in a fight you're not dead! you're just out of endurance for a while! So no need to reload! Yay!)

 

And I thought roleplayers ARE supposed to actually imagine stuff. What cannot be presented by game itself has to be imagined.

[Stun]

And I thought roleplayers ARE supposed to actually imagine stuff.

They're supposed to imagine their Roles, and their actions, and their emotions. Not why that tent they rested in for 8 hours suddenly cured all their broken bones when magic couldn't.

[Gfted1]

You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer.

That is not how the mechanic works. Both Endurance and Health are lost simultaneously.

[Emc2]

 

You can imagine the endurance is some kind of force that protects your body, once the power runs out, your health starts to suffer.

That is not how the mechanic works. Both Endurance and Health are lost simultaneously.

 

Well.....time to go study the mechanics more carefully. Thanks for the correction.

Apparently the wiki has some sort of explanation, so I guess my way of imaginary-fixing doesn't work. I really need to check these things more carefully before posting.....

 

According to the wiki Endurance: "Represents resistance to short-term injury or how much general abuse a character can withstand before they are knocked unconscious." and Health "represents long-term injury or how much damage a character can take before he is maimed or dies". (These might actually have been posted here earlier). That explanation is satisfying enough (not that I would've cared too much anyway).

 

I agree with Stun: You are only supposed to imagine your Role in the world that has been set for you, but I still find myself filling out the gaps whenever they pop up. Usually it is better if the game can explain the presence of some mechanics so they don't feel too gamey (what a nice word).

[MReed]

Arguing about realism / in universe explanations in this context is....  Well, silly, in my mind.

 

In 2ed AD&D, take a 10th level fighter (50 hp) and a 1st level fighter (5 hp), strip them of all equipment, and put them in a room where a single character attacks them repeatedly with a short sword (1d6 damage, so call it 3 damage on average).  Both characters are free to move, but cannot escape the room nor attack their attacker.  On average, the 10th level fighter will die after receiving 17 hits, but the 1st level fighter will die after only 2.  What is in the in game lore explanation for this? 

 

The best that I've seen is "Well, high level characters are able to convert blows that would otherwise be lethal into glancing blows," which contradicts other game mechanics -- for this explanation to work the characters should either be granted intrinsic damage reduction and / or armor class as they level up, and they don't.  The real explanation is clearly "If character's hit point totals were fixed at level 1 (barring extraordinary effects that improve CON), then either 1st level characters would be able to challenge and defeat all foes, 10th level characters would be completely level locked (if a 10th level character has DR 50/-, then he can defeat any number of foes that do 45-49 damage / hit, but has no chance against a foe that does 50-54 damage / hit, or 10th level characters will be completely at the mercy of the RNG (10th level character has intrinsic AC of -15, so foes only hit on a natural 20 -- at which point the character is likely dead).

 

If you are willing to accept the hit point abstraction as "necessary to make a fun and interesting game", then I don't think that the endurance / health system that is used in this game is harder to accept (beyond simply being newer).

 

Just my two cents.

[Stun]

In 2ed AD&D, take a 10th level fighter (50 hp) and a 1st level fighter (5 hp), strip them of all equipment, and put them in a room where a single character attacks them repeatedly with a short sword (1d6 damage, so call it 3 damage on average).  Both characters are free to move, but cannot escape the room nor attack their attacker.  On average, the 10th level fighter will die after receiving 17 hits, but the 1st level fighter will die after only 2.  What is in the in game lore explanation for this?

Resiliency. And pain tolerance that comes from experience. It's no different than how it is in say, Boxing. a top ranked heavyweight can withstand a champion's punches for 12 rounds, while an amateur will probably get knocked out after just a couple of punches from that champion.

 

Not that it matters. in 2nd edition AD&D, a character can, in fact, do 50 points of damage from one sword swing, thus one-shotting either fighter.

 

Now explain to me the miraculous overnight life healing powers of a bed roll and how it utterly trumps the divine power of a 12th level priest of a greater god.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Stun

[MReed]

Resiliency. And pain tolerance that comes from experience. It's no different than how it is in say, Boxing. a top ranked heavyweight can withstand a champion's punches for 12 rounds, while an amateur will probably get knocked out after just a couple of punches from that champion.

 

That's a pretty good example -- but I'd argue that there is a significant difference between boxing (and other, similarly violent sports) in that immediate death (excluding long term consequences) is very rare.  That makes them more a matter of skill (avoiding / minimizing hits ~= AC) or absorbing / minimizing damage (~= DR), which fits in with my example.  But the champion boxer isn't going to survive any more hits from a short sword than I would -- it would be harder to hit him, but that's not what hit points in AD&D represent.

 

Not that it matters. in 2nd edition AD&D, a character can, in fact, do 50 points of damage from one sword swing, thus one-shotting either fighter.

 

I'm not sure that's relevant -- I'm not disagreeing that damage is scaled with hit points (actually, damage increases significantly faster than hit points, because higher level characters are expected to avoid or mitigate more damage via extrinsic effects, such as armor or magic) -- my point is that someone who has been stabbed by a sword should be in deep trouble, regardless of their training or experience, but a game that acknowledges this simple reality isn't as very fun.

 

 

Now explain to me the miraculous overnight life healing powers of a bed roll and how it utterly trumps the divine power of a 12th level priest of a greater god.

 

Thankfully, I don't have to -- in PoE, Priests in this setting don't get their power from their deity, but rather from their belief in a deity.

 

Priests do not gain power directly from their deity, but from their belief in the deity and the tenets of their religion. Priests gather energy into their own souls and release it through the use of specific prayers. These prayers form the common spells priests use in battle, ranging from healing magic and divine attacks to a variety of blessings and curses. Relying on large area of effect bonuses mixed with small area offensive spells to direct combat from afar.^[1]

 

And, of course, in AD&D it doesn't work that way, so I don't have to explain it in that setting either.

 

That still leaves the question of the "magic bedroll that heals all damage after 8 hours of sleep", but...  I'm fairly confident that your arguing that endurance / health doesn't make the game more interesting -- adding an (weak, as it must be) in game explanation of why it works the way that it does isn't going to convince you otherwise.

[Lephys]

The magic bedroll is easily explained:

 

The non-magic bedroll that required 2 months' rest and 100 poultices wasn't nearly as fun in early testing.

 

It's kinda like how games don't actually make you wait 6 hours for your party to have waited until nightfall, etc.

[Stun]

but...  I'm fairly confident that your arguing that endurance / health doesn't make the game more interesting -- adding an (weak, as it must be) in game explanation of why it works the way that it does isn't going to convince you otherwise.

Eh? That's not necessarily true. I've always maintained that Obsidian has a pretty cool thing going for them by making souls be a source of power, so if they *do* come up with a decent in explanation for why there's no healing magic in the game, or why resting is so earth shakingly powerful that no known magic can duplicate its effects; or why minor injuries and flesh wounds heal themselves up in seconds when there's no enemies around, then I'll be ok with the system. Or at least I'll say "well, it's not my preference, but it's a viable alternative".

 

But really, what I'm trying to do is to get people to understand that when developers take a simple and elegant mechanic and make it illogical and multi-layered for no reason but to check-mate bad player behavior, or to introduce an artificial challenge, We all should see it for what it is, and not come up with silly justifications. We KNOW why the endurance bar regenerates and the health bar doesn't: It's josh's solution to the 15 minute adventuring day--and to try and please the Grognards who despise the instant regeneration mechanics in modern RPGs while at the same time pleasing the modern RPG lovers who enjoy the fast-paced, "on to the next fight!" nonsense that games like dragon age, witcher and skyrim have made the norm. Here we have a bizarre system where Both mechanics are at play simultaneously.

 

And we know why there's no healing spells. Josh hates pre-fight and post fight rituals. He calls them "rote". Just as there's no pre-buffing in PoE, there's no post fight heal-casting either, because "waste of play time".

 

That's all I have to say on this beat-up topic.

Edited February 11, 2015 by Stun

[Diogenes]

 

but...  I'm fairly confident that your arguing that endurance / health doesn't make the game more interesting -- adding an (weak, as it must be) in game explanation of why it works the way that it does isn't going to convince you otherwise.

Eh? That's not necessarily true. I've always maintained that Obsidian has a pretty cool thing going for them by making souls be a source of power, so if they *do* come up with a decent in explanation for why there's no healing magic in the game, or why resting is so earth shakingly powerful that no known magic can duplicate its effects; or why minor injuries and flesh wounds heal themselves up in seconds, then I'll be ok with the system. Or at least I'll say "well, it's not my preference, but it's a viable alternative".

 

But really, what I'm trying to do is to get people to understand that when developers take a simple and elegant mechanic and make it illogical and multi-layered for no reason but to check-mate bad player behavior, or to introduce an artificial challenge, We all should see it for what it is, and not come up with silly justifications. We KNOW why the endurance bar regenerates and the health bar doesn't: It's josh's solution to the 15 minute adventuring day--and to try and please the Grognards who despise the instant regeneration mechanics in modern RPGs while at the same time pleasing the modern RPG lovers who enjoy the fast-paced, "on to the next fight!" nonsense that dragon age, witcher and skyrim type games have made such a thing the norm. Here we have a bizarre system where Both crowds get what they want.

 

And we know why there's no healing spells. Josh hates pre-fight and post fight rituals. He calls them "rote". Just as there's no pre-buffing session, there's no post fight heal-casting session either because "waste of play time".

 

That's all I have to say on this beat-up topic.

 

 

So what you are saying is that its a good system designed to minimize the problems inherent in both modern games and older titles and shouldn't be taken as something inherent to the game world itself, agreed.

[Stun]

So what you are saying is that its a good system designed to minimize the problems inherent in both modern games and older titles and shouldn't be taken as something inherent to the game world itself, agreed.

You must have me confused with someone who thinks a single health bar + healing spells (like how the IE games did it) is an " inherent Problem" that need to be minimized.

 

You would be wrong.

[Lephys]

I didn't even think about the souls thing. Maybe, instead of "oh, it's just time-lapse healing because regular-speed healing isn't any fun to wait for," people in the lore actually heal up in about 8 hours of rest. That would be kind of interesting, actually. Now, as for an actual explanation, I don't know what we're going to get, really. "Because souls"? The same goes for magic, really. Why can it heal in most games? "Because magic." It's not like you can scientifically explain the reason non-existent magic is able to heal flesh (or not, for that matter). All you can really say is "it can't," and maybe make up something like "because soul power cannot mend flesh."

[Diogenes]

So you don't agree that the IE games had an over-reliance on the fight-heal-rest strategy? In terms of the for the "average player" rather than an expert with multiple playthroughs under their belt and system mastery of course?

Edited February 11, 2015 by Diogenes

[Stun]

So you don't agree that the IE games had an over-reliance on the fight-heal-rest strategy?

Do *I* agree? Nope. And that's a loaded question by the way. Aside from Planescape: Torment, the IE games were about fighting. So of course they're going to rely on...fighting, and then the after effects of it, which will depend on how well the player party fought. If they were reckless, or used a dumb strategy, or if they simply sucked ass, then the player will probably look back, after beating the game and say, yes, the game featured an over reliance on fighting, healing and resting.

 

But I don't judge the IE game mechanics on the experiences of crap players and neither should anyone else here.

 

In terms of the for the "average player" rather than an expert with multiple playthroughs under their belt and system mastery of course?

You know, Who cares? This isn't about 'average players'. It's about the mechanics of a game that is very much *NICHE* and NON-MAINSTREAM. The mechanics for such a game should not be designed under the assumption of a significantly large casual player base who will be too lazy to cast heal spells, after engaging in combat which was, to them, so punishing that their toons need an endurance bar as a buffer to their health bars. Edited February 11, 2015 by Stun

[Diogenes]

Don't talk about "casuals" or use other elitist terms, its ridiculous. The base mechanics of any given game should be designed to be understood by an average person with limited instruction and then from there you can branch out to more complex systems for higher level play. This game isn't as niche or non-mainstream as you might think and the developers are very much aware of this.

 

The Endurance bar isn't some extra buffer for bad players its a way to make the game fun by making healing a part of battles and therefore "active" or "dynamic" or whichever buzzword you prefer rather than a generally post-battle thing. You still take actual health damage in fights so you have attrition but you can avoid the situation of "well I got critically hit in that fight and the wizard used 2 spells, better rest again." Yes you can avoid taking damage and fight optimally, that's great but the game shouldn't be designed under the idea that every player will have complete mastery and do every encounter perfectly.

[Elerond]

Main goal behind health/endurance system is to remove high reliance in healing classes and make it much more viable option not have any healers in your party. 

 

Reliance towards rest spamming is tried to limit with limited resting in wilderness and giving classes per fight abilities/spells and not making any class such that they are useless in fight without their per rest abilities/spells.

 

By removing non-rest based (potions/scrolls/other items/etc.) ways to restore health has added more value to health as strategic resource especially when resting is limited by camping supplies. But in other hand endurance resource that works as main tactical health resource and which restores fully after every fight lessens somewhat importance of health and works as way to prevent instant deaths in fights especially in low levels, without making player characters able take more punishment before they are out of the combat. 

 

So PoE's systems make game somewhat less punishing in beginning as characters don't die permanently as easily and not having healing class in party don't hinder your exploration efforts heavily. But in other hand in late game not being able to use gold/money resource to buy longevity by buying healing/resurrect potions/scrolls/other items will cause players need to control more where they use their per rest resources especially as rest is limited.  Of course how these mechanics actually work and feel are determined heavily by how quantities of these resources are balanced in the game, but generally speaking these mechanics should make beginning less punishing and reducing number of resources that player has in late game.