No room for more tactical combat?

[svartelric]

I know, I know, this is probably getting old - but still.

Is there no way at all that the combat system can become less annoying than it is now? What I mean to say is that it's too similar to the combat in BG and IWD: frantic, hiccupy, and very random.

I know a lot of people would argue that strategy is needed, prebuffing, counterspelling, etc, but I still can't wrap my head around the fact that it doesn't look and feel any different from the old system, with all the aforementioned flaws. I remember IWD was a continuous haste-rest cycle for me, to the point that it felt more like a chore than a game, and from what I'm seeing, the "learning curve" (difficulty at low levels) in PoE is in the same ballpark. Also, there isn't much strategy to be had, when a 6-man party is getting minced by a single stone beetle, which apparently shrugs off spells, knockdown attempts and some type of damage (although I like to think that this is a beta related issue).

I'm not saying a complete turn-based system would be the ideal solution, but something along the lines of KotOR II would be great, IMO. At least that combat system gave the time to organize and queue actions in a way that would make the flow of the battle a little more pleasant, while still being a RT with pauses combat system.

[PrimeJunta]

Haha, there's just a raging argument here where the grognards (=super-hardcore IE combat fans) argue that P:E combat is too static and not frantic enough (because of engagement) and feels COMPLETELY DIFFERENT from IWD and BG/2. 

 

Also, there is no prebuffing nor counterspelling in P:E.

 

Now: the general consensus is that beetles bite too hard in the current BB. This will likely change in the next one which is expected at any time. They have so much damage threshold bypass that you're better off fighting them naked -- armor will just slow you down without adding any protection. That's clearly wrong.

 

Re difficulty and learning curve, the BB is rather brutal since you jump in at level 4 (formerly 5) with a full party, and face off against enemies of that level. I'm sure the real thing will be much less so because you start alone or with 1-2 companions at level 1, so you'll have more time to ease yourself in.

 

You might want to check out this thread about BB fighting tips for newbies.

 

Also, there's no shame turning down the difficulty to Easy. The BB392 build is hard, and I'd say that Normal difficulty corresponds to Very Hard on most modern games and is IMO somewhat harder (because of the beetles) than IWD on Core Rules. I've been alternating between Hard and Normal with the different backer builds since the difficulty swings back and forth a quite a lot. Hard on BB392 is... pretty rough ATM.

[BrainMuncher]

I can't say this with 100% confidence since I haven't played the beta, but I believe you can queue actions NWN-style by holding down some key like ALT or SHIFT or something.

[PrimeJunta]

No, you can't.

[Mlatimudan]

This must be bizzaro world, someone on the board is giving the game **** on account of it being too similar to IE games.

[Leferd]

This must be bizzaro world, someone on the board is giving the game **** on account of it being too similar to IE games.

It's certainly an unorthodox take.

[BrainMuncher]

No, you can't.

Well that's unfortunate.

 

 

I generally don't think of these games as real time with pause, even though everyone calls them that. I think of them as asynchronous turn based with fast. Turn on the right combination of auto-pause options and pressing space bar isn't something you do to pause the game, it's something you do to tell the game to resume playing out until something needs a new order.

 

For this it's essential to have lots of auto-pause options.

And queuing will help reduce the number of pauses that happen, making the game flow better. Not just in terms of what the game is doing, but also what your brain is doing. It's easier to focus on one guy at a time than to always have your attention divided between six. With queuing I can tell the wizard to throw a fireball, then buff the party, then attack someone. Without queuing, I would probably plan that sequence out in my head anyway, but I'd then have to mentally keep track of it myself, and remember where I'm up to the next time the wizard needs an order.

 

Now if there are insufficient auto-pause options, you also have to actively monitor all party members to see when they finish their most recently assigned action, so you can manually pause to give them a new one, all while juggling six action queues in your head.

 

It's not as bad as I probably make it sound, but these two things really improve the flow of combat by a huge amount, without actually changing any combat mechanics.

Edited January 23, 2015 by BrainMuncher

[Sensuki]

You can shift-queue actions.

 

 

 

I think of them as asynchronous turn based with fast

 

Uhhh

 

then Fighting Simulators and Warcraft 3 must be turn-based "with fast" (wtf is that), because they follow the same rules as PE's RTwP system.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

You can??? Since when? :shock:

[Sensuki]

v333

[teknoman2]

that's an interesting info

[svartelric]

Well action-queuing sounds cool; also, I'm glad to hear that those beetles are off the charts.

As for combat being too similar to IE, that's just my opinion, I get that it was a great selling point for most people. Just saying...

Edited January 23, 2015 by svartelric

[Sensuki]

Combat really isn't that much like the Infinity Engine games. How you select and command units is like the Infinity Engine games though.

[PrimeJunta]

That's a matter of perspective really. What you focus on.

 

I just gave NWN and NWN2 a short whirl too, and from where I'm at P:E combat is waaaaaaaaay closer to the IE games than them. 

 

Also IWD2 is an IE game too, the last one in fact. I'll have to give that another spin as well; I have a hunch the combat might actually be pret-t-ty close to P:E because it has AOO's which are similar to engagement in many ways.

[Luckmann]

That's a matter of perspective really. What you focus on.

 

I just gave NWN and NWN2 a short whirl too, and from where I'm at P:E combat is waaaaaaaaay closer to the IE games than them. 

 

Also IWD2 is an IE game too, the last one in fact. I'll have to give that another spin as well; I have a hunch the combat might actually be pret-t-ty close to P:E because it has AOO's which are similar to engagement in many ways.

 

IWD2 has AOO:s? Because if it does, I literally never noticed. I've played through IWD2 twice and made it about halfway through a few times, and never did I notice anything like AOO:s or Engagement.

 

Do I have a case of the alzheimers?

Edited January 23, 2015 by Luckmann

[PrimeJunta]

My bad, it doesn't. I thought it did since it's based on D&D3, and they're quite central to its combat.

[Sarex]

PoE was supposed to be close to IWD2 in regards to combat, at least that was the pitch.

[teknoman2]

in all IE games and in NWN2, in closed spaces i always used chokepoints. i had 2 tanks, i set them to block the door or any space smal enough that no enemies could pass through and had the rest of the party stand back and use ranged weapons or spells. in PE the mechanics allow tanks to keep enemies off the rest of the team without having to look for a chokepoint and/or exploit the AI

[Sensuki]

My bad, it doesn't. I thought it did since it's based on D&D3, and they're quite central to its combat.

I think Josh wanted them in, but they couldn't do it 

 

 

 

in all IE games and in NWN2, in closed spaces i always used chokepoints. i had 2 tanks, i set them to block the door or any space smal enough that no enemies could pass through and had the rest of the party stand back and use ranged weapons or spells. in PE the mechanics allow tanks to keep enemies off the rest of the team without having to look for a chokepoint and/or exploit the AI

 

Playing like that is super boring, and you could keep enemies off your backline in the IE games too. You just had to do it the RTS way (the fun way) rather than the herp derp move a guy here and have some stupid aggro mechanic make them attack him way.

Edited January 24, 2015 by Sensuki