bad design decisions

[ctn2003]

Has anyone suggested the idea of giving a free "background" talent at level one? The game has quite a few talents that are sort of cool from the perspective of building a roleplaying archetype but a bit difficult to justify taking compared to stuff that gives you new abilities or buffs your basic combat efficiency. Like a lot of the utility talents for example fall into this category.

 

You could make the available set based on the choice of background, so for example the Hunter would get to choose from the favoured enemy type talents, the Mercenary could choose Arms Bearer and Field Triage, the Scientist gets Potent Potions, the Colonist gets Wound Binding, the Mystic gets the elemental damage ones. Some more generic ones like Snakes Reflexes could be available for all. I can't think of any for stuff like the clergyman or artist but maybe they could pick from the general list and get an extra skill point or something.

Thats a good idea.

[archangel979]

I think the fact that being knocked out doesn't have a penalty is bad design. Maybe 10% of your health should be lost when you get knocked out. 5% for the barbarian.

Don't you lose Health as well along with Endurance? So getting knocked out equals to losing most health possible from one battle (well without being healed with spells during the battle).

 

Anyways, I am sure Bester can add something in his mod as well. Just propose to him something smart that is not too complicated.

[Sensuki]

Yeah I would personally never pick a Utility talent. I mean why would you do it lol? 

[Luckmann]

Has anyone suggested the idea of giving a free "background" talent at level one? The game has quite a few talents that are sort of cool from the perspective of building a roleplaying archetype but a bit difficult to justify taking compared to stuff that gives you new abilities or buffs your basic combat efficiency. Like a lot of the utility talents for example fall into this category.

 

You could make the available set based on the choice of background, so for example the Hunter would get to choose from the favoured enemy type talents, the Mercenary could choose Arms Bearer and Field Triage, the Scientist gets Potent Potions, the Colonist gets Wound Binding, the Mystic gets the elemental damage ones. Some more generic ones like Snakes Reflexes could be available for all. I can't think of any for stuff like the clergyman or artist but maybe they could pick from the general list and get an extra skill point or something.

 

Since I want Talents on creation to help with chiseling out a concept, I think this could be a good idea, but at the same time, it increases the gameist nature of the backgrounds. It'd make certain Backgrounds more or less objectively better or worse for certain classes, rather than giving you freedom on creation to realize a character you want to play.

 

Yeah I would personally never pick a Utility talent. I mean why would you do it lol? 

 

Yeah, there's really no reason to pick Utility talents. Some of them are neat, but honestly, 90% of all picks will be in the Offensive or Class category, 10% in the Defensive, and Utility never. It's too bad, too, because the Utility talents are fun, but they're just not very useful. They really shouldn't have been in the same pool.

[archangel979]

Maybe there will be some quests that check if you have an Utility talent? :D

[PrimeJunta]

Wasn't the third weapon slot a utility talent? I could see myself picking that under some circumstances. Would be nice to be able to pack melee, bow, and gun.

[cmergler]

I think Triage and/or the self-healing talent could be somewhat useful, like when just one party member has dangerously low health. Still, so far I rarely picked it, and class talents or some offensive ones are usually the way to go.

 

Actually it would be rather nice to get additional talent picks restricted to Utility talents, maybe only every few levels?

Edited January 26, 2015 by cmergler

[Luckmann]

Wasn't the third weapon slot a utility talent? I could see myself picking that under some circumstances. Would be nice to be able to pack melee, bow, and gun.

I agree that it could be nice. Lots of Utility Talents are nice. I'd like to have them. But... the others are better.

 

The more I think about it, the better I think it'd be to split it up into different pools.

[aeonsim]

Yeah I would personally never pick a Utility talent. I mean why would you do it lol?

 

If I was making an elementally themed wizard the elemental affinity talents would be nice for the 20% damage bonus.

Fire Godborn Wizard, with the full range of fire spells decent might and scion of flame (+5 Fire DR, +20% Fire damage) armed with an implement with damaging, and Fire lash ).

Edited January 26, 2015 by aeonsim

[Luckmann]

 

Yeah I would personally never pick a Utility talent. I mean why would you do it lol?

 

If I was making an elementally themed wizard the elemental affinity talents would be nice for the 20% damage bonus.

Fire Godborn Wizard, with the full range of fire spells decent might and scion of flame (+5 Fire DR, +20% Fire damage) armed with an implement with damaging, and Fire lash ).

 

 

From a roleplaying perspective, for sure, there is some potential, but with so few Talents (12 levels in the game, gaining Talents every other level, that's 6 total Talents), you'd be hard-pressed to "sacrifice" one or two of them for "roleplaying", since they only have mechanical effects, not narrative ones (if there's any Talent that gives a narrative effect at one point, I don't know about it).

 

I'll probably just give myself 1-2 flavourful Talent(s) via the console on creation and focus on the suboptimal, but that's just me, it doesn't actually solve the overall issue, and even so that requires a very artificial self-moderation that cannot really be implemented mechanically.

[Hassat Hunter]

Shouldn't be too bad balance-wide to allow 3 "utility" talents then, lvl 4,8 and 12 (or 3,7,11 if they clash with already talent giving levels).

Unless you're all flaming liars of course

[Ondb]

 

Ahh... Why do you care how i want to play game ?

I don't, but supporting that kind of stuff is expensive (programming time wise) and I'd prefer to see that time spent elsewhere.

 

 

Fair point.

However i would say that scripting engine must be implemented for enemies already. It should not be much expensive to create interface for party members. 

[Lephys]

Fair point.

However i would say that scripting engine must be implemented for enemies already. It should not be much expensive to create interface for party members.

Alas, enemies are designed to automatically handle all behavior and "decision-making." That doesn't really translate over to your party members, lest the game "play itself" for you. You've got to change it up a good bit to provide a lot of player options to sort of build their own AI scripts, under a different set of restrictions/limitations so that the party doesn't just win combats for the player.

[Hassat Hunter]

Ah, the good old... [impossible] shouldn't be too hard to program into the game...

[wanderon]

Ah, the good old... [impossible] shouldn't be too hard to program into the game...

 

As I recall this is not good for kittens... or was it puppies? 

[TheForumTroll]

Wow, unlimited stash and no ammo? What is this, the console edition forum I found?

[archangel979]

Wow, unlimited stash and no ammo? What is this, the console edition forum I found?

A fitting name

[Mayama]

:/ A thread full of people that try to sell their personal preference / opinion as design facts.

[archangel979]

:/ A thread full of people that try to sell their personal preference / opinion as design facts.

Nope. A thread full of people expecting basic designs from games PoE namedroped to get more KS money.

[Mayama]

 

:/ A thread full of people that try to sell their personal preference / opinion as design facts.

Nope. A thread full of people expecting basic designs from games PoE namedroped to get more KS money.

 

 

With that you mean "a thread full of people which think that their understanding of "basic design decisions" is something everyone has to follow, meaning that their opinion is fact and everyone else thinking in a different way is wrong"

 

 

If it was only that...

1. No running away from combat (not talking about engagement)

2. Infinite stash available everywhere

3. You cannot change weapons from inventory during combat (or give it to other characters)

4. Lack of ammo and as result lack of all kinds of cool magical ammo

5. Combat log in terrible position (or lack of being able to place it where we want it)

6. Camera angle not good enough

7. No walking state, only running.

My pet peeve:

8. Elder name given to animals to present them as stronger when older animals are only weaker. Elder is name give to MAGICAL creatures that become stronger with age like Vampires or Dragons. Lion when old become weak and lose pack leader status (if they even had it, most just become old).

 

 

Not a single one of your points is objective, everything is subjective. It has nothing to do with "basic design" its all about how you PERSONALY want things and how the current product is not in line with it and that you cant deal with the fact that the people in charge have a different opinion on the topic.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Mayama

[archangel979]

While I agree some are subjective, 1. to 4. is not.

5. can be argued because the current position does seem hard to use.

7. is a fact. Only reason why it is not in the game is lack of money/time. The game loses nothing by having both states but gains a lot.

 

And we are still talking about comparing PoE with IE games that were used to gather so much money from backers.

Edited February 13, 2015 by archangel979

[Mayama]

While I agree some are subjective, 1. to 4. is not.

5. can be argued because the current position does seem hard to use.

7. is a fact. Only reason why it is not in the game is lack of money/time. The game loses nothing by having both states but gains a lot.

 

All of them are subjective exept maybee 6. I personaly dont give a crap about any of those "problems". Nothing on that list is a problem for me:

 

1. I never ever ran in any RPG away from combat, I just reload when I die. So no problem for me.

 

2. You have more or less an infinite Stash in most RPG's anyway. The only difference I see is that PoE doesnt hide it behind crazy high carring capacities or tons of item slots.

 

3. I actually think its a good thing that you cant change weapons that are not in your item slots in combat because it always felt weird that you could search your whole backpack in most RPG's while in combat.

 

4. Ammunition hoarding was such a pain in the but in baldurs gate 1-2 and I usually dont play archers so I dont give a crap.

 

5. I agree combat log should be in the middle.

 

6. I got used to the camera angle 1 hour into the game.

 

7. I never ever use the walking state in any isometric RPG its just so slow and tedious so I wont miss anything / dont care.

 

 

See I have a different opinion on most of those things, because its your opinion not fact.

 

I personaly would prefer a really good enemy AI over everything people suggest on this forum.

[archangel979]

 

While I agree some are subjective, 1. to 4. is not.

5. can be argued because the current position does seem hard to use.

7. is a fact. Only reason why it is not in the game is lack of money/time. The game loses nothing by having both states but gains a lot.

 

All of them are subjective exept maybee 6. I personaly dont give a crap about any of those "problems". Nothing on that list is a problem for me:

 

1. I never ever ran in any RPG away from combat, I just reload when I die. So no problem for me.

 

2. You have more or less an infinite Stash in most RPG's anyway. The only difference I see is that PoE doesnt hide it behind crazy high carring capacities or tons of item slots.

 

3. I actually think its a good thing that you cant change weapons that are not in your item slots in combat because it always felt weird that you could search your whole backpack in most RPG's while in combat.

 

4. Ammunition hoarding was such a pain in the but in baldurs gate 1-2 and I usually dont play archers so I dont give a crap.

 

5. I agree combat log should be in the middle.

 

6. I got used to the camera angle 1 hour into the game.

 

7. I never ever use the walking state in any isometric RPG its just so slow and tedious so I wont miss anything / dont care.

 

 

See I have a different opinion on most of those things, because its your opinion not fact.

 

I personaly would prefer a really good enemy AI over everything people suggest on this forum.

 

1. Some people play hardcore. They need to be able to run away. Not everything is about you.

2. I don't care about most RPGs, this game was marketed as new generation IE game. No infinite stash there. At best you get Bag of Holding much later. I understand new players cannot bear to do even a little inventory management but letting us access this stash from anywhere makes it a non choice and it makes it a non choice to pick up everything or not

3. Realism means **** when so many parts of the game and mechanics are nowhere near realistic. It worked like this in IE games and there is no real reason to limit it. It just makes players lives more difficulty for almost no gain, it punishes players that forgot to do specific inventory management before combat (that also goes against #2 and #1; you cannot escape so you can then do it right and come back). It will only promote loading the game which is stupid.

4. You don't give a crap but many do. It is not about you. And I am talking about different kinds of ammo which gives options to archers.

7. Did you ever play IE games? Well you walk all the time there.

 

TLDR; this is not about you, many people can use these missed designs. Also all this was discussed in the thread, next time read a bit, don't be lazy.

Edited February 13, 2015 by archangel979

[Mayama]

1. Some people play hardcore. They need to be able to run away. Not everything is about you.

2. I don't care about most RPGs, this game was marketed as new generation IE game. No infinite stash there. At best you get Bag of Holding much later. I understand new players cannot bear to do even a little inventory management but letting us access this stash from anywhere makes it a non choice and it makes it a non choice to pick up everything or not

3. Realism means **** when so many parts of the game and mechanics are nowhere near realistic. It worked like this in IE games and there is no real reason to limit it. It just makes players lives more difficulty for almost no gain, it punishes players that forgot to do specific inventory management before combat (that also goes against #2 and #1; you cannot escape so you can then do it right and come back). It will only promote loading the game which is stupid.

4. You don't give a crap but many do. It is not about you. And I am talking about different kinds of ammo which gives options to archers.

7. Did you ever play IE games? Well you walk all the time there.

 

TLDR; this is not about you, many people can use these missed designs. Also all this was discussed in the thread, next time read a bit, don't be lazy.

 

 

1. and not everything is about you, are you trying to twist my words around mister?

 

2. It was advertised as a spiritual successor not as a "new generation IE game". That are two completly different things.

 

3. "it worked like that in IE games" is not a argument for or against any design decision. I like it that you cant access your stash in combat, you dont. Opinions...

 

4. I pointed out that I dont give a crap about stuff like arrows to show you that their are people with different opinions on that topic. My "not giving a crap about ammunition" is as important as the next guys opinion that thinks the game is completly desastrous without arrows. Seriously you do yourself nothing good if you accuse me of beeing egocentric if the starting point of our conversation was my comment on how your post sells your opinion on how things should be as fact.

 

Where are those "many people that want those missed designs"? I count not more than 20 people on this forum that share your point of view. That are not many, I bet most people dont really care about most of the details of this game. I also bet that those people are a very vocal minority because usually people that think its ok or dont care do not post.

Edited February 13, 2015 by Mayama

[archangel979]

1. You do know that PoE has hardcore mode as part of difficulty options? Nobody is going to play that when you cannot escape a losing battle. They wasted their time.

2. I was trying to be nice. Spiritual successor is even closer to original than new generation X game (see how much different is between new Xcom and old one; much more than DAO vs BG2 -> DAO was advertized as spiritual successor)

3. It is all the argument you need. I also have you real points that you conveniently ignored because you are only complaining because you don't like this or that while accusing me of that.

4. You know there is a world outside this forums as well yes? And people there are not Obsidian fanboys and are much less forgiving. Lack of ammo is always on their lists of failed things.