Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity

[Stun]

Also, not 100% happy with my party composition. I have too much thief and not enough fighter. Yoshimo is a bro and more competent at thieving than Nalia, but I think Nalia's skills will do, even though she won't advance them, and Yoshimo can't do much other than thieve. I'd like to swap him out for a fighter or fighter/something. I'm missing a pure fighter.

You'll find her later, but there's a pure fighter that will gel perfectly for your role playing. Mazzy. Seek her out.

[Ashen Rohk]

 

I hate the fact that the game gives you a choice whether or not to cut a massive chunk out of the game after Spellhold and thereby preventing you from getting the last bit of Crom Faeyr. Honestly, who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.

I agree! Choice and Consequence. What an absurdly stupid concept for an RPG!

 

 

The choice and consequence between choosing the thieves or vampires made sense and it's really well executed. If instead of going on the ship you went to a different area before the Underdark then that would've been brilliant, but cutting content for choosing the wrong dialogue option isn't choice and consquence in terms of RPG mechanics, it's just bad design.

[Ashen Rohk]

 

Also, not 100% happy with my party composition. I have too much thief and not enough fighter. Yoshimo is a bro and more competent at thieving than Nalia, but I think Nalia's skills will do, even though she won't advance them, and Yoshimo can't do much other than thieve. I'd like to swap him out for a fighter or fighter/something. I'm missing a pure fighter.

You'll find her later, but there's a pure fighter that will gel perfectly for your role playing. Mazzy. Seek her out.

 

 

Mazzy's pretty cool. Voiced by Jen Hale as well I think.

[Luckmann]

I hate the fact that the game gives you a choice whether or not to cut a massive chunk out of the game after Spellhold and thereby preventing you from getting the last bit of Crom Faeyr. Honestly, who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.

What choice are you talking about here? My memory is fuzzy.

[PrimeJunta]

Okay. Beholders. I am finding them just about exactly as frustrating as the last time. I'm trying to lead with a fire elemental, scout with an invisible party member, and drop Cloudkill when I see them, but I always get wiped when they target my caster. Also the fire elemental usually gets really annoyed at being Cloudkilled which does not make things easier. I don't know Glitterdust and buffing doesn't help because one of those rays is Dispel. I have completely forgotten how to fight beholders. I do not want to tiptoe-and-rest-spam this like before. 

 

Thinking.

I would need to either blind them, or find some way to protect myself from all those rays. I know about the Shield and Cloak of Balduran, but those are so cheesy I won't use them except as a last resort (and I certainly wouldn't know about them if I was playing this cold -- I do not look through every item description in every store). 

 

Let's see. No Glitterdust. Jaheira knows Pixie Dust which will make the party invisible and therefore harder to target, but I don't think it'll be enough; the first thing I attempted was buff Iggy, have him take Speed again, and attempt to solo it. No dice, he died in the first group. I don't think Pixie Dust will cut it. What, then? Cheat, of course: Google "how to fight beholders baldur's gate 2." 

 

read read read

 

Damnit. It seems Glitterdust is the favored solution. And I don't know it. Do I really have to slog all the way back to the Adventurers' Mart or wherever to get it? 

 

Help a bro out here, bros. How do I beat the beholders without those cheesy items, without Glitterdust, and without using an expensive technique like invisibility+web+cloudkill+elemental which would require me to rest every three steps?

[Ashen Rohk]

 

I hate the fact that the game gives you a choice whether or not to cut a massive chunk out of the game after Spellhold and thereby preventing you from getting the last bit of Crom Faeyr. Honestly, who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.

What choice are you talking about here? My memory is fuzzy.

 

 

After you complete the Aslyum at Brynnlaw you get a choice whether to sail back to the mainland or make the journey through the Underdark. If you choose the ship you get boarded, sunk and you enter the City of Caverns. You eventually make your way to the Underdark.

 

Or you just choose the Underdark and lose that entire area.

[Stun]

The last Piece of Crom Faeyr is NOT in the underwater city. It's in the Underdark. (Demogorgon Statue encounter, remember?).

 

What you do miss out on by taking the portal is

 

1)The Wave blade piece.

2)The Cloak of Mirroring

3) The Cloak of Protection +2

4) The awesome spectator beholder (which even PrimeJunta will love, since it just might be the best piece of comic relief writing EVER in a game)

Edited January 10, 2015 by Stun

[Luckmann]

 

 

I hate the fact that the game gives you a choice whether or not to cut a massive chunk out of the game after Spellhold and thereby preventing you from getting the last bit of Crom Faeyr. Honestly, who the f*ck thought that was a good idea.

What choice are you talking about here? My memory is fuzzy.

 

 

After you complete the Aslyum at Brynnlaw you get a choice whether to sail back to the mainland or make the journey through the Underdark. If you choose the ship you get boarded, sunk and you enter the City of Caverns. You eventually make your way to the Underdark.

 

Or you just choose the Underdark and lose that entire area.

 

Oh god, that's.. I've played Baldur's Gate 2 completely through at least 5 times (probably even more) and I can't remember ever noticing that. That's huge.

 

I love how incredibly railroaded that is, too. It's like a GM that gives the players a choice, and the players are like "Nah, we're just going to take the ship back to the mainland, the Underdark sounds dangerous." and then the GM just goes "Rocks fall, ship sinks, you are now in the underdark anyway".

 

 

 

The last Piece of Crom Faeyr is NOT in the underwater city. It's in the Underdark. (Demogorgon Statue encounter, remember?)

Well no matter the Crom Faeyr, I just assumed that the reason you got the Cloak of Mirroring in the Sahuagin City was specifically to help you deal with the Beholders in the Underdark. Colour me surprised.

 

You also miss out on the Rod of Lordly Might, Gauntlets of Crushing, the Wave Blade, and the Boots of Etherealness. Not to mention a metric ton of experience and a treasure trove of magic scrolls.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Luckmann

[Ashen Rohk]

The last Piece of Crom Faeyr is NOT in the underwater city. It's in the Underdark. (Demogorgon Statue encounter, remember?)

 

Ah, apologies. My mistake! My point stands though.

 

Edit 2: Nice updates, thanks!

Edited January 10, 2015 by Ashen Rohk

[Stun]

Help a bro out here, bros. How do I beat the beholders without those cheesy items, without Glitterdust, and without using an expensive technique like invisibility+web+cloudkill+elemental which would require me to rest every three steps?

Animate dead? Dominate? Horror? Liberal use of avoidance? Brute melee and ranged force + lots of potions and summons? (that's how I used to do it, way back when I was a n00b)

 

What level is your party?

 

Edit: Lots of people say that the Shield of Balduran is "cheese" or "cheating" or some other silly platitudes du jour. But when you press them to elaborate, the only explanation they give you is: "well because it makes this frustrating, unfair fight too...fair!" lol OK, I've got 3 answers to that.

 

1) The Shield of Balduran is not cheap. By buying it, you're making a significant dent in your funds...for an Item that will only be useful to you in maybe 3 instances in the entire game.

2) There's only 1 Shield of Balduran, and if you're traveling with a party that means that only 1 of you is protected

3) So what? Skip all beholder battles if you're too weak to fight them head on and too "hiptster" to do things the easy way.

 

Besides, only Beholders and Elder Orbs pose a threat. Gauths are Nothing. You fight them like you fight anything else. Toss fireballs and magic missiles at them till they fall dead.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Stun

[archangel979]

Okay. Beholders. I am finding them just about exactly as frustrating as the last time. I'm trying to lead with a fire elemental, scout with an invisible party member, and drop Cloudkill when I see them, but I always get wiped when they target my caster. Also the fire elemental usually gets really annoyed at being Cloudkilled which does not make things easier. I don't know Glitterdust and buffing doesn't help because one of those rays is Dispel. I have completely forgotten how to fight beholders. I do not want to tiptoe-and-rest-spam this like before. 

 

Thinking.

I would need to either blind them, or find some way to protect myself from all those rays. I know about the Shield and Cloak of Balduran, but those are so cheesy I won't use them except as a last resort (and I certainly wouldn't know about them if I was playing this cold -- I do not look through every item description in every store). 

 

Let's see. No Glitterdust. Jaheira knows Pixie Dust which will make the party invisible and therefore harder to target, but I don't think it'll be enough; the first thing I attempted was buff Iggy, have him take Speed again, and attempt to solo it. No dice, he died in the first group. I don't think Pixie Dust will cut it. What, then? Cheat, of course: Google "how to fight beholders baldur's gate 2." 

 

read read read

 

Damnit. It seems Glitterdust is the favored solution. And I don't know it. Do I really have to slog all the way back to the Adventurers' Mart or wherever to get it? 

 

Help a bro out here, bros. How do I beat the beholders without those cheesy items, without Glitterdust, and without using an expensive technique like invisibility+web+cloudkill+elemental which would require me to rest every three steps?

There is no shame in returning later. Maybe this quest is just not for the power level of your party. Also there is no shame in returning to Inn to change spells and tactics. Players in PnP would do the same after scouting Beholders. Edited January 10, 2015 by archangel979

[Yellow Rabbit]

4) The awesome spectator beholder (which even PrimeJunta will love, since it just might be the best piece of comic relief writing EVER in a game)

Oh, please. Narrow it down to "best piece of comic relief writing in an wRPG" at least. BG2 deserves to be admired, but there must be some bounds of reason.

 

 

Btw, thanks for the topic, PrimeJunta! Enjoyed reading it a lot.

[Sensuki]

Help a bro out here, bros. How do I beat the beholders without those cheesy items, without Glitterdust, and without using an expensive technique like invisibility+web+cloudkill+elemental which would require me to rest every three steps?

It depends which Beholders. Try to progress slowly and pull individual Beholders or a few at a time. Gauth Beholders I think can stun you, so some sort of Protection from Stun is good against them, or Minor Spell Turning (I think).

 

I think how I beat them is I use the Celestial Fury Katana which has a chance to stun, on a warrior with high attacks per round, it will usually proc once, so you can just send them in with a few buffs, maybe an Oil of Speed and take them down with that. Of course if you're not proficient with Katanas, it might be more difficult

[AndreaColombo]

Yeah but it's scaling up 2D assets isn't it ?

 

Yeh, pretty much. I like it much better disabled myself.

[Luckmann]

 

4) The awesome spectator beholder (which even PrimeJunta will love, since it just might be the best piece of comic relief writing EVER in a game)

Oh, please. Narrow it down to "best piece of comic relief writing in an wRPG" at least. BG2 deserves to be admired, but there must be some bounds of reason.

 

 

Btw, thanks for the topic, PrimeJunta! Enjoyed reading it a lot.

 

 

>implying there are non-WRPGs that are RPGs.

[PrimeJunta]

Party is around level 9.

 

See, I have a problem with this. Design-wise I mean.

 

I really liked the de'Arnise keep overall. It was challenging but fair. This, on the other hand, feels unfair:

 

(1) The quest is lobbed at you the first time you visit the Temple District, with an additional "Don't wait too long, this is urgent."

 

(2) Massed gauth and beholders are overwhelming, unless you know exactly what their weaknesses are, and have the right counters.

 

(3) There is no in-game way to find out about these weaknesses and their counters. For example, the blind ex-worshipper who should know all about them doesn't tell you jack.

 

Basically, the game throws you at them and goes "Here, figure it out." No indication that you may be out of your depth here. No indication of what you should do to prepare. I maintain that the only way to learn how to deal with these is either to die repeatedly and try one thing aver another until something bites, or make like I did -- ask someone who already figured it out.

 

The "cheesy" solutions -- Shield of Balduran etc. -- are also incredibly non-obvious. It is IMO unreasonable to expect players to return to a shop to browse its inventory to see if it just so happens that they have just the item to neutralize those critters.

 

I find this frustrating and unfair, not challenging in a fun way.

 

What's more, this would have been so, so easy to address:

 

(1) Put a couple of anti-beholder spells in a cache somewhere nearby.

(2) Make it possible to interview the blind ex-cultist about beholder-fighting techniques.

(3) Don't push the quest in the player's face when he is certainly at a low level and unprepared for it.

 

-- Anyway, I managed to defeat one group of gauth and a beholder, but I blew all my high-level spells on it: summoned a couple of elementals, cast Haste on them, and had them wipe out the group. It was not so much fun, but I'm pushing on nevertheless.

 

I do not like this quest.

[Yellow Rabbit]

>implying there are non-WRPGs that are RPGs.

Depends on who you ask, I guess. Whether those really are RPGs and all that, I mean. You may remove that "w" if you feel like it I typed it just to hit category of games BG2 would fit in more precisely.

[Cubiq]

A word of caution.

They aren't in this quest, but watch out for elder orb beholders.

They have imprisonment.

[Sensuki]

PrimeJunta

You should have done the Guarded Compound in the Temple District first .

 

The Unseeing Eye quest is awesome, one of the best quests in the game. But you seem to be undergeared or something for it. Maybe just using the wrong tactics I dunno, but yeah I usually do the Temple District first right after the Slaver stuff, and I haven't had too much trouble getting through the Beholder lair on any playthrough.

 

What weapons did you skill? 

You can beat the Gauth Beholder groups fairly easily by making sure that they only target one party member - the party member that you light up like a christmas tree with buffs/potions, you just send him in first, the Gauths will target him, and then come in at a delay with everyone else. That usually does the job.

 

You might have to constantly quaff Potions of Extra Healing / Heal your Inquisitor but it should work. You should have all sorts of potions and **** to use as well.

Oh hang on, have you gone down to the Temple past all the Undead/Flesh dudes and stuff ? Or did you choose another way into the Beholder Lair ?

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sensuki

[Stun]

See, I have a problem with this. Design-wise I mean.

 

I really liked the de'Arnise keep overall. It was challenging but fair. This, on the other hand, feels unfair:

 

(1) The quest is lobbed at you the first time you visit the Temple District, with an additional "Don't wait too long, this is urgent."

 

(2) Massed gauth and beholders are overwhelming, unless you know exactly what their weaknesses are, and have the right counters.

 

(3) There is no in-game way to find out about these weaknesses and their counters. For example, the blind ex-worshipper who should know all about them doesn't tell you jack.

 

Basically, the game throws you at them and goes "Here, figure it out." No indication that you may be out of your depth here. No indication of what you should do to prepare. I maintain that the only way to learn how to deal with these is either to die repeatedly and try one thing aver another until something bites, or make like I did -- ask someone who already figured it out.

I do not like this quest.

True, The fact that the quest is called the Unseeing Eye would probably be too vague to constitute a clue that you're about to face Beholders. And the fact that the Forgotten God Avatar refers to the "beast" as a Beholder, is probably not enough for some players to conclude that they're about to face beholders. Of course, If you had Viconia in your Party, she'll tell you, after you meet Gaal, that you're dealing with a Beholder Cult.

 

Incidently, I have no idea what changes the BG2 EE inflicted upon the game, (I play only the Original) but in my game that quest is somewhat level scaled. At level 9, The enemy composition is like 95% Gauth, and thus isn't really all that sucker-punchy as you're describing. But that's beside the point. This is the old skool. There's no safety net and step-by step instruction manual. You can, in fact, get in over your head if you venture too far off the beaten path. Adventuring is a dangerous profession etc. My suggestion.... go do the Umar Hills.... Or...try and seek out your profession's stronghold. That cult isn't going anywhere. And neither is the Temple of Helm/Lathander

 

(1) Put a couple of anti-beholder spells in a cache somewhere nearby.

They did. And not just spells. You came from the sewers. Which means you've got the Cloak of the Sewers. Try polymorphing into a mustard jelly and then taking on those Gauths/beholders. Again, Junta, BG2 is a game of infinite tools. Edited January 10, 2015 by Stun

[PrimeJunta]

@Stun: I knew full well I was going to face beholders. What I didn't know is how to fight them.

 

I have no objections to being out of my depth if I'm off the beaten path, but I'm not off the beaten path. That Helmite knight yanked me off the street -- literally -- to give me this quest, as I was on my way to do another quest pushed onto me by a party member who's been with me since the Irenicus dungeon.

 

Optional encounters can and should be hard, even outrageously hard (Kangaxx). Encounters which are on the path very very visibly signposted for you should not.

 

(I'm also a little tired of this "If you're not having fun it's YOUR fault" line.)

 

Anyway, turns out there was only one group of beholders there; one by one there was no problem as they only had time to get one attack in before I had a Blindness slapped on them. So I found the rift device thing and nuked the Unseeing Eye. Returning it to the really cool temple of the forgotten god now.

[Sensuki]

I think he's stuck in the Beholder Lair until he gets through it now

 

This is actually an optional quest too, has nothing to do with the main plot. It's part of the Cleric Stronghold though I think.

 

But yeah I think experiences may differ if you're playing BG2:EE, I have not played it because the modded original is better IMO.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sensuki

[Stun]

(I'm also a little tired of this "If you're not having fun it's YOUR fault" line.)

Except I did NOT say that. And I would never say such a thing, since getting 'sucker punched' by the unknown can actually be pretty darn fun (Oh, to play BG2 for the first time again. I envy people like you!). I specifically said that if you're getting your ass wiped it's your fault. Which it is. There are multiple solutions to absolutely every scenario in this game, and I can *prove* it. Thus anyone who claims otherwise....with comments like "I can't do this"! And "This is "unfair!" is, in fact, attempting to blame the game for his own failures.

[archangel979]

BG2EE didn't touch on encounter spawning system. They added BG2 system into BG1EE.

[PrimeJunta]

A'ight, finished with the beholder quest.

 

Summary: The temple of the Forgotten God and the twist with the Rift Device was really cool. I dug that part. I did not dig the beholder part for reasons discussed above. The quest itself was fine, but the manner in which it was handed to me was not. I am pretty sure that if I had been going into this completely cold and had no access to all you good folks or all the solutions on the Internet, I would have quit the game at this point and never looked back.

 

The beholders are, in fact, representative of the kind of DnD combat I do not like. It's pure rock-paper-scissors. Things like positioning, choice of target, or even party composition or character build don't matter. The only thing that matters is that you find "the solution" to beating them. Usually the most obvious solutions are cheesy or tedious: pulling them one by one if possible, firing spells from beyond visual range, or, as I did, using summons. And then there are "secret solutions" like the items that give you complete immunity to them. (With the Shield of Balduran, I'm 100% certain Minsc would've easily soloed the thing. Kit him out with the best armor, glug a potion of speed, and Bob's your uncle.)

 

This quest is the kind of thing that gives BG2 its (in some circles) reputation of "reload 'til you win" or "cheese it 'til you win" or "rock paper scissors." 

 

And it goes a long way to explain Josh's stance on hard counters. If this is what they mean, then I'm against them too.

 

None of the fights in IWD were remotely like this. Not even Belhifet who was also kind of dumb.

 

-- What next?

 

I'm still/again unhappy with my party. Raszius is cool but Nalia really blows as a thief. No good at scouting or opening locks at all. So it looks like I'm going to switch back to Yoshimo, or maybe recruit that wacky EE thief from the Copper Coronet. Also I don't really need two paladins. 

 

Also: I rest-spammed to get some chests open in the cult lair when Nalia's lockpicking didn't cut it. That means time passed. That means I got another load of things dumped on me; Nalia had a funeral to attend and Aerie wanted to see Quayle. Did both of these. This mechanic -- tying things to passed game time -- is also not working for me, all the more so when I can't avoid taking on timed quests. There should really be a queue for them so they're dropped on you at intervals, or else passage of game time should be transparent and important. As it is, I'm on edge (not in a good way) that some timer is going to finish and I'll miss out on stuff, when IMO the best thing about this type of thing is the possibility to let yourself get completely sidetracked at every opportunity. 

 

What's with Aerie's priest spell selection by the way? I'm missing Cure Moderate Wounds at least.

 

Anyway, that quest was more tedious than fun. Not feeling like continuing ATM. We'll see how I feel about it later.

Edited January 10, 2015 by PrimeJunta