Let's Play Baldur's Gate 2, and reflect on Pillars of Eternity

[PrimeJunta]

I don't really get it, you complain about Beholder's being an example of "hard counters" when you were able to brute force your way through the fight just fine.

It was tedious as hey. I summoned a couple of elementals, buffed them with Haste, let them loose, and went to make myself a coffee.

 

Then you complain about fighting vamps without negative plane protection when apparently you got through that fight just fine as well and could solve the level drain issue with one trip to a temple. Vampire encounters can also be avoided by not going out at night.

Why would I go to a temple when I can just abuse the rest system to memorize some Lesser Restorations and restore the level drain myself? It's just tedious, 'sall.

 

Then you complain about not having a Paladin specific solution to the Maevar quest, a quest that starts with you joining a criminal organisation to investigate one of their members for treachery and ends with with you murdering him for his "crimes." It is actually possible to ignore Edwin's quests and just kill him with a backstab or something and take the key to Maevar's strongbox to complete the quest line that way. I don't think you can pickpocket it though, which is unfortunate. But regardless there's no way to square the entire quest line with a lawful good alignment, even if you just assume everyone at Maevar's guild is evil enough to deserve death getting paid to kill them is a pretty... pragmatic interpretation of a paladin's code. 

 

Anyway you're basically describing a bunch of stuff about the game that makes it so awesome. A excellently rendered fantasy city, tons of little encounters, lots of weird and wonderful monsters to learn about, lots of companion quests and interaction, some morally dubious **** for you too etc.

To each their own. I found it frustrating and un-fun, not awesome at all.

[Sensuki]

I agree that Pillars of Eternity has a lot more effort put into reactivity, alternate quest options and all that stuff, but I'm not sure if it will have the branching nature/sheer depth that some of the BG2 quests will.

 

For me the combat gameplay is what matters more than absolutely anything.

 

It's also important to consider that for PE to have good quest design, those mistakes had to be made in other games (like BG2).

 

The IE games were actually a step down in quest design from some of the earlier 90's RPGs. Eg. Dark Sun Shattered Lands - that had more options/ways to do stuff.

Edited January 10, 2015 by Sensuki

[PrimeJunta]

No it is not. You took a quest for Thief guild as a paladin. A quest that was not even about greater good. That should have been instant loss of paladinhood there in PnP. The game is nice and didn't do that. After that, it does not need to pander to Paladins with identity crisis.

If you don't want to do it, walk away. I done that plenty of times even in PnP while not playing as restricted classes as paladins, **** money and XP.

I'm an Inquisitor. Ever heard of undercover cops? What if my intention was to investigate both groups in order to find out enough about them to bring them both down?

[Stun]

Also i liked that i had quests piling atop one another every corner,

Yes. This.

 

I (now) understand (from dwelling here on this forum) that this is, apparently, matter of taste, but a few years ago such a thing would have been unthinkable to me. How can ANYONE not love that overwhelming feeling? That feeling that comes when dozens of quests are thrown at you and you suddenly think to yourself. Oh man, this game must be truly massive.... I'll be going everywhere and doing everything for months!

[PrimeJunta]

Be nice if you could use some Cipher abilities in the dialogue in PE, but so far - they don't let you.

There is at least one such occasion, and it makes a totally crucial difference.

[Malekith]

 

Anyway: I understand and to an extent agree about the criticisms towards P:E combat, especially the magic system. However, when it comes to both writing and quest design/reactivity, it appears to be head. and. shoulders above BG2. No contest. Not even close.

 

That is true, and everyone that claims otherwise is lying. And no, if you decide to keep the devise, the game doesn't let you. You die in a scripted event when you leave the sewers

[Sensuki]

I know the occasion you're talking about, but I don't think it's a cipher ability - it's a dialogue related thing.

[PrimeJunta]

@Malekith, @Stun and others, re 'swamped with quests' and 'man there's a lot to do,' I love the way the Fallouts (1, 2, and NV) do it. There's something for you to discover like, everywhere, but none of it is forced on you. There's not a single moment when you're railroaded into doing something you don't want to do, and if you're faced with a set of unpleasant alternatives they really have thought of almost everything that might play into it. Even now when I fire up Fallout or Fallout 2, I get this "wow, there's a whole world out there to discover" feeling.

 

(Shame about the combat though.)

[PrimeJunta]

I know the occasion you're talking about, but I don't think it's a cipher ability - it's a dialogue related thing.

It is a cipher ability. If it was ability-gated there would be that red locked line in the dialog.

[Stun]

I'm an Inquisitor. Ever heard of undercover cops? What if my intention was to investigate both groups in order to find out enough about them to bring them both down?

I beg your pardon...? Did your God or your Order tell you to investigate the Docks? Because those are the two entities a paladin must answer to. On the other hand, Yoshimo is a purely materialistic thief (and you'll learn later that he's even worse than that). As an Inquisitor, you F*cked up already by agreeing to take his advise. The fact that you later met Renal Bloodscalp, and agreed to focus your Righteous holy warring ways, covertly, upon one of his employees....well.... Suffice to say that someone's "Role Playing" could use some work.

 

BG2 is positively filled to the rafters with Paladin-ish things to do and people to help. But Assisting the Don of Athkatla's Mafia in any way is not one of them. lol

Edited January 10, 2015 by Stun

[Malekith]

PrimeJunta, on 10 Jan 2015 - 9:36 PM, said:

@Malekith, @Stun and others, re 'swamped with quests' and 'man there's a lot to do,' I love the way the Fallouts (1, 2, and NV) do it. There's something for you to discover like, everywhere, but none of it is forced on you. There's not a single moment when you're railroaded into doing something you don't want to do, and if you're faced with a set of unpleasant alternatives they really have thought of almost everything that might play into it. Even now when I fire up Fallout or Fallout 2, I get this "wow, there's a whole world out there to discover" feeling.

 

(Shame about the combat though.)

True that as far reactivity and quest design goes, Fallouts were better than any IE game (with the possible exception of PST).

But don't forget that Fallout 1 was a tiny game compaired to BG2, more of a sandbox, and with more systemic approach to quest solutions.

So it's a bit like apples and oranges. A more appropriate comparison (and relevant to PoE) would be PST vs BG2.

I actually agree with you that the more subtle way PST and Fallout presented their content was better than Bioware did, but the solution isn't to have less content, just hide it better and make the Player to actualy search for it.

[HoonDing]

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

[Malekith]

HoonDing, on 10 Jan 2015 - 10:18 PM, said:

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

Yes. It will be better in combat, it will be worse in writing and propably quest design.  The jury is out for the rest.

[Starwars]

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

 

Given that I think BG2 is one of the most overrated games ever (though I still find it enjoyable, had a fairly good time when I replayed it last year) I fully expect PoE to be a better game in most ways.

[Althernai]

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

I hope not. BG2 is probably my favorite game ever -- I must have played it over a dozen times -- but it definitely has its share of flaws. It would be really sad if PoE cannot do better, particularly since PoE has the benefit of being able to learn from the mistakes BG2 makes (as well as all of the other IE games and a bunch of other RPGs released in the past decade and a half).

[Stun]

Anyone doubt BG2 will still be better than PoE in every way?

Obsidian has a more talented creative writing staff than even the old Bioware. We all know that. So it's a safe bet that everything directly related to the written word will probably be better in PoE.

 

But what significance will that have to the big picture, exactly? PoE is not designed to be another Planescape: Torment, where gameplay/combat are peripheral things, forced into background and thus, the stunningly great writing can carry it all the way. NO, there's a different design at play here. PoE is built to be a combat focused game with BG2-like exploration. Which means good writing will only take it so far. And if it can't match BG2's game play, character building, wanderlusting etc, then people are going to conclude that it's not as good.

 

But really, that's not much of a criticism, is it. NO game is as good as BG2.

 

PS: (BruceVC): "BG2 had romances and PoE won't, therefore, there is no doubt that BG2 is going to be a better game." lol

Edited January 10, 2015 by Stun

[Starwars]

Lots of people are going to conclude it's not as good because there's a *huge* amount of nostalgia attached to the IE games, and BG2 in particular (though OEI of course brought that upon themselves with their kickstarter pitch).

 

That's not to say that there won't be people who will objectively be able to point out relevant things that BG2 does better, or point out reasons why they would prefer the BG2 "way". But the nostalgia attached to BG2 will keep that game firmly rooted in place as top dog for the people who holds BG2 as number one. That's just the way media and art works. Lord knows I have my own favorites.

 

Plus, of course, PoE is but the first game in a series (hopefully) with rulesets, lore and all of that stuff developed from scratch. So certain things will just be more developed in BG2, no question. In the end, I would hope people will be happy if they get a good game at least. While comparisons can be useful in improving games, the idea of "competition" between these games is really silly in my opinion (and I'm guily of it myself, having seen BG2 held to the skies throughout all these years whilst only finding it "good" myself).

Edited January 10, 2015 by Starwars

[HoonDing]

I look forward to playing it, have Divinity: Original Sin in the pipeline but can't be arsed to even start it up.

[TheisEjsing]

BG 2 was fantastic for the 14 yeared old me. When I play it now, the writing seems juvenile. It's still great, and the nostalgia gives it an upperhand to other games. But judging from the beta, PoE will be superior in writing. More mature, more in sync with the aging of the backers since the happy BG days.

[PrimeJunta]

I beg your pardon...? Did your God or your Order tell you to investigate the Docks? Because those are the two entities a paladin must answer to. On the other hand, Yoshimo is a purely materialistic thief (and you'll learn later that he's even worse than that). As an Inquisitor, you F*cked up already by agreeing to take his advise. The fact that you later met Renal Bloodscalp, and agreed to focus your Righteous holy warring ways, covertly, upon one of his employees....well.... Suffice to say that someone's "Role Playing" could use some work.

 

BG2 is positively filled to the rafters with Paladin-ish things to do and people to help. But Assisting the Don of Athkatla's Mafia in any way is not one of them. lol

Fair enough if you say so. As I mentioned earlier, I tend not to "not accept quests" in computer games. But you're absolutely right, I did not have to do so. I did feel pressured to do so because of the consequences of not accepting companion quests in BG1 though.

 

I took Sensuki's advice and headed for Umar Hills. Finished it. Thought it was kind of meh; definitely not exciting enough to put up with the downsides. Also, very very easy (except probably for the dragon which I didn't even try to fight).

 

Bottom line: despite the promising start (slaver quest, de'Arnise keep)  I'm finding BG 2 more frustrating than fun, so I'm ending this Let's Play (and my attempt at it) here. The things that killed it for me are:

1. Athkatla's content density: the way every bystander is pushing a quest on me, sometimes even in my face, including those scripted, timed events, from party members and elsewhere. I don't know what's important and what's not, and feel like I'm being yanked on a leash in different directions. I love it that there's a lot of content, but let me find it, don't push it on me like a bunch of panhandlers.
2. Certain features of IE mechanics, compounded by the limited control I have over party composition. For example, it got really tedious to cast one Cure Light Wounds after another, so after a while I was sliding back to clicking Q-Rest(-L if monsters showed up) just because it was easier. I.e., between tedious and degenerate, I slid to degenerate. Other similarly irritating mechanics were the inventory system, the stealth system, the chance to fail to transcribe a spell, and pathfinding combined with constrained maps. Also: rock-paper-scissors magic. It felt like I had the wrong spells memorized -- or learned -- most of the time. It's as if the game wants me to change my spell loadout for each part of each quest, but at the same time it punishes me for resting (wandering monsters).
3. The quests and writing just aren't all that interesting. All the quests I did were completely linear; the only choice involved was to take it or leave it. Choices in alignment and class were not supported or even acknowledged. In IWD I didn't care because the combat was so much fun and the maps were so well designed, but with much rougher encounters, areas that don't make sense, and cheesy writing... not worth it.
4. A quite a lot of the content was save-die-and-reload. The golem fight in de'Arnise Keep, the beholders/gauth, and that Kangaxx guardian lich. Maybe I was underleveled for some of it. If so, how would I know? And how do I find the content that's suitable for my level? The game doesn't tell me, and I do not find it enjoyable to go partway through a quest, discover it's not fun, and go do something else. When I start on something I want to finish it. And I want the game to communicate to me when I'm going off the beaten path and about to try something stupidly dangerous. BG2 does not do it in any way. I am totes cool with someone else liking that, but I do not.

So that's that for BG2 and me. I'll go back to Heart of Winter at some point; it looked promising and if it's set up the same way as IWD I will probably like it a lot more. At this time, BG1 and BG2 are clearly my least favorite IE games. I enjoyed even IWD2 more than this, IWD a LOT more than this, and PS:T is, of course, PS:T.

 

Thanks for following, everyone. I have high hopes that I'll like P:E more than this -- not a very high bar to clear in my case.

Edited January 10, 2015 by PrimeJunta

[Luckmann]

I hope not. BG2 is probably my favorite game ever -- I must have played it over a dozen times -- but it definitely has its share of flaws. It would be really sad if PoE cannot do better, particularly since PoE has the benefit of being able to learn from the mistakes BG2 makes (as well as all of the other IE games and a bunch of other RPGs released in the past decade and a half).

PoE is sadly making mistakes all on it's own, so if you're looking for straight-up improvement or just making BG2 but better, you're going to be disappointed.

[Hassat Hunter]

Heh, have to disagree there... after Athkatla BG2 becomes somewhat of an unbearable slog... it's definitely the high point of BG2. In a manner of way BG1 did it better than BG2 thusly. High-quest density areas always seem perfect to me; Athkatla, Baldur's Gate. Just compare Divinity II to it's expansion FoV, it went from above-avarage action RPG to "damn, this is amazing"... although I suppose I am somewhat of an outcast there being a MAJOR fan of the Dragon sequence at the end that apparently is universally hated (why? Why ruin Dragons for us forever )

[PrimeJunta]

Baldur's Gate (the location) was nothing like Athkatla. There was a lot of stuff there, for sure, but it was not being stuffed down my throat. I had to go look for it. That is way more enjoyable.

[archangel979]

 

No it is not. You took a quest for Thief guild as a paladin. A quest that was not even about greater good. That should have been instant loss of paladinhood there in PnP. The game is nice and didn't do that. After that, it does not need to pander to Paladins with identity crisis.

If you don't want to do it, walk away. I done that plenty of times even in PnP while not playing as restricted classes as paladins, **** money and XP.

I'm an Inquisitor. Ever heard of undercover cops? What if my intention was to investigate both groups in order to find out enough about them to bring them both down?

What are you talking about? You hunt down evil spellcasters in addition to standard palading things.

Infiltrating Thief guilds is not a job for a guy that cannot lie. Didn't you say you played PnP?

Maybe you should read what Inquisitors do. They are not police or detectives and certainly not undercover agents. That is what Harpers do.

Edited January 10, 2015 by archangel979

[illathid]

As a fellow BG2 paladin player, I get a lot of your complaints. The game works best when you've already know most of the content, which is kinda ****ty design. The place I think choice and consequences really shows up is in the Underdark with the Drow. There's multiple ways to complete the main quest there, and it lets you play out your alignment conserns approriatly (in my opinion at least).