30 min vid about the dumbing down of The Elder Scrolls franchise

[Namutree]

 

To conclude, there's a quote from another forum (The Escapist, I think) that sums up Skyrim perfectly:

 

"I believe that Skyrim is a Bigfoot pizza from Pizza Hut. Do you remember that pile? It was a massive pizza, like the size of a bathtub, made with the cheapest ingredients anyone has ever dared use in a consumable product. But, this Skyrim pizza, you eat it alone, in a room, for hours and days. Every piece of it sustains you, only so that you can continue on to eat the next piece. Every piece tastes bland, and offers you almost noting in the way of nourishment, but it's still pizza, so you're not upset to be eating it. Pizza is inherently good, but, god damn, the more you eat this pizza, the more you come to hate the taste of it. After a time, it becomes a punishment. "Oh god, not another slice of that same stale-ass ****. There's so much of it, and none of it makes me happy! All this time and not once have I felt satisfied!"

 

This is the experience of playing Skyrim. It is an exercise in tedium that leaves you numbly continuing forward not for any meretricious reason, but only for its essential nature. TES games are always good in their nature, if not for what they offer. You will never feel as content to remain unsatisfied as you feel playing an Elder Scrolls game."

 

This quote is hogwash.

 

Skyrim has a fantastic character creation system. 

The Elder Scrolls have cool lore, and Skyrim took it in an interesting direction.

The skill system is the best in the series yet; it may not have the most, but it's more dynamic and allows for much better character customization than most RPG's.

The combat has been much improved from previous entries; especially Oblivion. It's fast paced and reasonably fun.

The shouts are neat to screw around with.

 

Syrim is NOT like the bigfoot pizza.

[Stun]

Did a game like BG2 fail to recognise the player character's qualities, such a race, on occasion? Of course it did...except that the game never established a world that was rife with racial tension.

Bullsh*t. All the IE games save for PS:T are set in the Forgotten Realms, which is all about racial tensions... cartoony as they are. Elves hate Dwarves. Half-orcs are second class citizens, and Drow and Deurgar are attacked on sight.

 

Of course you'd never know this by playing the BG games because the BG games did not address racial tension beyond the introductory token level. Make NO mistake about this. Skyrim does a MUCH better job in making the Races recognized by the citizenry.

 

 

She won't romance an elven PC, either, due to her prejudice. You can't say the same about Skyrim, where all of the (incredibly shallow) "romances" are open to you regardless of your race or gender.

There are no romances in Skyrim. There isn't even implied romances in Skyrim. So bringing them up is a silly red herring. Not sure what Mods you're using though. Although I challenge you to find a single Khajiit in Skyrim that's willing to marry your Nord Dragonborn.

 

Was combat in Planescape: Torment bad? Yes, but combat is not at all the focus of the game.

Combat's not the focus of Skyrim either. Skyrim only really has 2 focuses: Exploration and sim play. Interestingly however, you can find racial recognition in Skyrim's combat. Enemies trash talk you according to your race during combat. That's something you won't see (hear) in the BG games. Just thought I'd bring that up for the one or two posters here who judge RPGs on that all-important criteria of Racism. lol Edited December 29, 2014 by Stun

[BigBripa]

Skyrim was just so soulless.

 

Doubt PoE will have that issue.

 

puzzles should be sidequest content because wow, nothing like doing some of those connect the dots puzzles in DA:I for 10-15 minutes for mediocre gear, but if it was necessary for the main plot I would be pretty pissed. Cave of Trials in StarOcean 2 had some decent puzzles and super rough random battles combined in such a way that made one quite suicidal. Could never do it in the process of the main story.

 

that being said I loved the Wild Arms series and they had a wide range of puzzles that blended pretty well with the main quest.

 

ETA: omg I was literally just talking about this with a friend, I always play Argonian in ES games and he always plays Khajit and there is zero difference EXCEPT PEOPLE BEING SLIGHTLY PISSY AND RACIST. Lmao. You could have put in race specific quests, goals, dialogue options, etc. But nope, just snippy racist comments.

Edited December 29, 2014 by BigBripa

[Namutree]

ETA: omg I was literally just talking about this with a friend, I always play Argonian in ES games and he always plays Khajit and there is zero difference EXCEPT PEOPLE BEING SLIGHTLY PISSY AND RACIST.

What about the mechanical differences? Kajits and Argonians get different racial bonuses.

 

 

Lmao. You could have put in race specific quests, goals, dialogue options, etc. But nope, just snippy racist comments.

That would be a tremendous waste of development time.

[BigBripa]

 

ETA: omg I was literally just talking about this with a friend, I always play Argonian in ES games and he always plays Khajit and there is zero difference EXCEPT PEOPLE BEING SLIGHTLY PISSY AND RACIST.

 

What about the mechanical differences? Kajits and Argonians get different racial bonuses.

 

 

Lmao. You could have put in race specific quests, goals, dialogue options, etc. But nope, just snippy racist comments.

 

That would be a tremendous waste of development time.

I think Argonians get a resistance to poison... Doesn't really impact play too significantly.

 

Skyrim was a masterclass in tremendous wastes of development time. A lake with a hundred mile radius, an inch deep.

[Namutree]

 

 

ETA: omg I was literally just talking about this with a friend, I always play Argonian in ES games and he always plays Khajit and there is zero difference EXCEPT PEOPLE BEING SLIGHTLY PISSY AND RACIST.

What about the mechanical differences? Kajits and Argonians get different racial bonuses.

 

 

Lmao. You could have put in race specific quests, goals, dialogue options, etc. But nope, just snippy racist comments.

That would be a tremendous waste of development time.

I think Argonians get a resistance to poison... Doesn't really impact play too significantly.

 

 

They also get the Histskin ability which is pretty good.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Namutree

[Jarmo]

I lament the loss of acrobatics skill. I bet it has nothing to do with nothing else, than the usual skyrim circular dungeon builds. With high acrobatics, you could usually jump from beginning of the dungeon to the end, also sidestep a lot of "puzzles" and trappy areas. Which would have been awesome.

 

 

Also, I did hate/not appreciate how nobody cared a bit if you're a spellcaster or argonian or whatever. Especially when racism and magick hating are otherwise made a big deal of.

 

But loved the game. A great RPG. Better than Oblivion, and oblivion was a lot better than Morrowind which I tried to like/play several times, but had to give up for being too ugly and stupid. Got about 10h into the game at best. Awful combat, ugly scenery and characters.

 

To me, a lot of ES mechanism hate is from players who've learned how to break the system,

then proceed to break the system and have overpowered characters, then complain the system is broken.

[Nakia]

I think comparing games like Oblivion and Skyrim to games like BG, Planescape/Torment etc. is a bit like comparing a Smorgasbord to a twelve course gourmet dinner.  Two very different types of games.

[Stun]

Skyrim was a masterclass in tremendous wastes of development time.

ROFL

 

A 5 year development cycle that results in a $1 BILLION payout is not, by any definition, a waste of development time.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Stun

[Luckmann]

 

Skyrim was a masterclass in tremendous wastes of development time.

ROFL

 

A 5 year development cycle that results in a $1 BILLION payout is not, by any definition, a waste of development time.

 

It is by many definitions. The only one you give is monetary.

 

If you don't care about monetary payout and instead focus on making a good game, then yeah, I agree with BigBripa's comment on it being a tremendous waste of development time. I doubt there's a single developer that worked on Skyrim that couldn't have been better used doing something culturally significant.

[HoonDing]

ROFL

 

A 5 year development cycle that results in a $1 BILLION payout is not, by any definition, a waste of development time.

It's a waste because I disliked it.

[TheisEjsing]

In BG2 Imoen is taken because she's casting magic missile. It's not a crime to be a mage in Athkatla, it's a crime to cast spells. Besides, why would they take you? Irenicus has just killed a bunch of cowled dudes, and he makes a deal with the cowled wizard in command to come without a fight, if she is taken too.

It would be untrustworthy if the scene played out in any other way. Why would the cowled wizards even care about a mage who is clearly small time, when they're dealing with a seemingly ustoppable foe in the middle of the city?

[Namutree]

In BG2 Imoen is taken because she's casting magic missile. It's not a crime to be a mage in Athkatla, it's a crime to cast spells. Besides, why would they take you? Irenicus has just killed a bunch of cowled dudes, and he makes a deal with the cowled wizard in command to come without a fight, if she is taken too.

 

It would be untrustworthy if the scene played out in any other way. Why would the cowled wizards even care about a mage who is clearly small time, when they're dealing with a seemingly ustoppable foe in the middle of the city?

Not to mention it's not illegal to be a mage. Just to cast magic which you didn't.

[TheisEjsing]

.

Edited December 29, 2014 by TheisEjsing

[Luckmann]

In BG2 Imoen is taken because she's casting magic missile. It's not a crime to be a mage in Athkatla, it's a crime to cast spells. Besides, why would they take you? Irenicus has just killed a bunch of cowled dudes, and he makes a deal with the cowled wizard in command to come without a fight, if she is taken too.

 

It would be untrustworthy if the scene played out in any other way. Why would the cowled wizards even care about a mage who is clearly small time, when they're dealing with a seemingly ustoppable foe in the middle of the city?

Nevermind that they had no idea that you were a mage. You're just some douchenozzle that fell out of a sewer about the same time as the shadow thieves is pulling a turf-war with a half-diety of a wizard.

 

I can't even imagine that the Cowled Wizards would care about Imoen, in context.

 

One thing always struck me as odd, though - I'd expect the guards to want to talk to you, or at least some kind of investigation into the matter where they hear or interrogate bystanders. After all, there was a big chunk of the Promenade that just caved, and the Shadow Thieves were all over the place. I know that in the background, the Shadow Thieves are big players in Athkatla and the law is more or less in their pockets, but it should've at least been a minor plot point.

[Darkpriest]

ehhh people tend to forget that gaming industry IS business... so money earned = success... it is the same with movies... no one in general public cares about maybe even some nice low budget movies with ambitious goals of putting forward some vision and message (because they are targeted to a narrow audience), they care about movies like Hobbit. Big with an "oomph" and loading pockets with dollah.

 

to say that a commercially successful game was a failure, is a bit unreal... it might have been, like in a case of DA2, where it clearly affected the past launch sales figures and amount of DLCs sold, but Skyrim is not in that area. It's just targeted for another audience than you or me. ( I found it super boring, even when I bought the GOTY with all the DLCs for 30% of original price)

[HoonDing]

Let's just hope 3 years from now people will still remember culturally significant games like Pillars of Eternity.

[BigBripa]

 

Skyrim was a masterclass in tremendous wastes of development time.

ROFLA 5 year development cycle that results in a $1 BILLION payout is not, by any definition, a waste of development time.

Under this logic The Avengers is one of the best films ever made. If you can live in a world where there is a cogent argument for this then we have nothing to argue over, we simply disagree on the basic elemental makeup of reality.

 

ETA: Just so we're clear I acknowledge that Skyrim, as a means to line the pockets of its developers was an overwhelming success. Just like Coke and Pepsi, TES is a brand that has and will continue to carry out this function, that of making money, for the foreseeable future. But I also don't think that stops coke, Pepsi, or Skyrim from being poison.

 

ETA#2: I actually don't dislike Skyrim that badly. My main gripe is its titanic mediocrity. And utter soullessness. But I don't really have it in me to bash it much further, it would be both a false sentiment and a moot point.

Edited December 29, 2014 by BigBripa

[Namutree]

 

 

ETA: Just so we're clear I acknowledge that Skyrim, as a means to line the pockets of its developers was an overwhelming success. Just like Coke and Pepsi, TES is a brand that has and will continue to carry out this function, that of making money, for the foreseeable future. But I also don't think that stops coke, Pepsi, or Skyrim from being poison.

 

Considering that you said this:

 

ETA: omg I was literally just talking about this with a friend, I always play Argonian in ES games and he always plays Khajit and there is zero difference EXCEPT PEOPLE BEING SLIGHTLY PISSY AND RACIST. Lmao. 

I don't think your opinion is based on the actual game, but rather the way you imagine it to be.

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Under this logic The Avengers is one of the best films ever made.

 

Some people really need to go back to school and learn reading and comprehension. Stun didn't say Skyrim is the best crpg ever made. He said it wasn't a waste of development time. And it wasn't a waste of development time.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Hiro Protagonist II

[Luckmann]

 

Under this logic The Avengers is one of the best films ever made.

 

Some people really need to go back to school and learn reading and comprehension. Stun didn't say Skyrim is the best crpg ever made. He said it wasn't a waste of development time. And it wasn't a waste of development time.

 

But the logic he used for that was a strictly monetary one. If you judge merit and worth based solely on how much dosh it brings to the farm, BigBripa's comparison is entirely apt. Because under that logic, The Avengers is definitely one of the best films ever made.

 

And he didn't say that from a financial point of view, Skyrim wasn't a waste of development time. He said that it wasn't by any definition a waste of time. Which is just plain wrong.

 

I would never say that Skyrim was a waste of development time for the owners of Bethesda - in fact, it was an unmitigated success. But as per the arguments brought forth in the very first video and also touched heavily upon in the second video, it isn't about financial gain from the viewpoint of stockholders.

 

In fact, I feel that financially was the only way Skyrim wasn't a waste of development time.

 

It's akin to saying that McDonalds isn't a waste of space by any definition, because it is a supremely successful business model. No-one with the palate above hoodrat tier would agree with that sentiment as a general rule. We all know that McDonalds is rubbish, no matter how much money they make per fiscal year. Refuting criticism based on economic success is essentially a strawman argument, because no-one would ever argue against Skyrim (or McDonalds) based on their lack of economic viability.

Edited December 29, 2014 by Luckmann

[Hiro Protagonist II]

But the logic he used for that was a strictly monetary one. If you judge merit and worth based solely on how much dosh it brings to the farm, BigBripa's comparison is entirely apt. Because under that logic, The Avengers is definitely one of the best films ever made.

 

No. As I said, some people need to go back to school and learn reading and comprehension. Looks like you're another one who needs to go back to school.

[Luckmann]

 

But the logic he used for that was a strictly monetary one. If you judge merit and worth based solely on how much dosh it brings to the farm, BigBripa's comparison is entirely apt. Because under that logic, The Avengers is definitely one of the best films ever made.

 

No. As I said, some people need to go back to school and learn reading and comprehension. Looks like you're another one who needs to go back to school.

 

 

Alright, help me a bit then, what's wrong? Because from my POV, you're pretty much slinging insults and not reading through the posts.

[BigBripa]

 

Under this logic The Avengers is one of the best films ever made.

 

 

Some people really need to go back to school and learn reading and comprehension. Stun didn't say Skyrim is the best crpg ever made. He said it wasn't a waste of development time. And it wasn't a waste of development time.

He used the money made by the game as the sole means to represent its worth, a logical construct wherein the Avengers would exist as one of the greatest films ever made... But ok. Lets just say that I am wrong and that he is not saying the money Skyrim made justifies it outright. Where he's saying because it made money it cannot be considered a waste. He's not saying that. Reading and comprehension are so hard.

 

And how I imagine it to be? Yeah I'm totally making things up, there's a ton of variety between playthroughs of different races besides offhand comments made by NPCs. I care so much about Skyrim that I just had to make up the fact that there is so little difference between races because while I was playing through it I was so focused on this element of the game that I began to imagine things.

 

I personally think you are imagining a much, much better game when you think of it. It would be wonderful if we had a word that described our personal perception and tastes... Like opinion, for instance.

[Nakia]

People like different hings and have different styles of playing which is what makes things interesting and gives us choices.  Everyone has a right to his or her own opinions.  Opinions are just that' opinions.  Insulting others because you disagree is know as using Ad Hominid arguments and leads to threads being closed.

 

Skyrim was and is a popular game, a lot of people like it.