US tortures

[HoonDing]

Better dead than Red.

[Gfted1]

True dat.

[Hurlshort]

The US has the worst health care billing system in the 1st world though, can't argue with that.  I have good insurance that takes a decent chunk of my salary, and I'm still swimming in nonsensical medical bills.  If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

[Valsuelm]

The US has the worst health care billing system in the 1st world though, can't argue with that.  I have good insurance that takes a decent chunk of my salary, and I'm still swimming in nonsensical medical bills.  If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

 

The government regulations already on the books are one of the very reasons the prices are insane in many segments. Very possibly the primary reason. Though now that 'Obamacare' is going to force people to buy certain insurance that 'possibly' is extremely likely to turn into 'definitely' within a couple of years.

 

There is a good deal of variety in costs, depending on one's plan, if they even have one or not, where they live, how greedy the institution is that they're getting whatever done at, and other factors.

 

And while I don't know your situation, a great many people out there are swimming in nonsensical medical bills because they're engaging in or purchasing nonsensical medicine they don't really need and/or that is actually detrimental to their health and well being. There is no small amount of quackery in western medicine, and no small amount of people out there brainwashed to believe in the BS, or just plain naive.

 

Government regulation over prices, medical or any other is not the answer, and also is often generally pretty much evil. Oh yea.. and communist too.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Hurlshort]

Who said anything about government regulation?  How quickly you jump to that conclusion.  

 

The car industry works much more efficiently with limited regulation.  You have insurance, you have clear language about how much it will cost you to do standard maintenance, you know what your coverage is in case of emergencies.  There isn't massive price variance between different shops.  So yeah, it's possible to do this without government interference.  I don't really care how they fix the problem at this point, I just want to see a vast improvement in how our health care industry operates.

 

 

Also I'm not sure what your familial standing is Val, but basic checkups and care for a family of four is pricey.

 

 

So people with serious medical conditions are just brainwashed?  That seems pretty unreasonable.

[Valsuelm]

Who said anything about government regulation?

You did:

 

The US has the worst health care billing system in the 1st world though, can't argue with that.  I have good insurance that takes a decent chunk of my salary, and I'm still swimming in nonsensical medical bills.  If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

What regulations are you imagining that would not come from the government in regards to prices? Regulating prices across an industry can only come from one of two places: the government or a cartel. The former is generally unconstitutional (though I'm sure that wouldn't stop the Fed from doing it these days) though at the State level it might not be, the latter is illegal (though it still sometimes occurs under the radar of most), and neither are good for Average Joe consumer at the end of the day.

 

The auto industry actually has oodles of regulation, though not so much as medicine, especially post Obamacare. There is also indeed oodles of variation in how much things cost to buy and repair within that industry. It's very much buyer beware from mechanics, as well as somewhat infamously for used cars and a lot of people get ripped off all the time. A great many of them not even aware they were. What the auto industry doesn't have much of (though there has been some) is massive subsidies coming from the government to the tune of hundreds of billions that creates price bubbles and all sorts of corruption.

 

Also I'm not sure what your familial standing is Val, but basic checkups and care for a family of four is pricey.

  

So people with serious medical conditions are just brainwashed?  That seems pretty unreasonable.

A lot of the 'basic checkups' and such people put themselves and their kids through are completely unnecessary for most people, and in some cases even detrimental. You should bear the full burden of those costs if you want them, not some insurance plan. That said, there are doctors out there with reasonable fees that practice family medicine, and that will tell you that you likely (if your family is all healthy) don't need checkup/procedure X, but if you actually need them, not rip you off. If you lived around here I could point you to some, but I don't know any in your area, though I've no doubt they exist. Like the dentist who will not use or recommend fluoride they aren't common, but they are out there.

 

And I never said 'people with serious medical conditions are just brainwashed'. Don't Bruce it up here and put words in people's mouths they never said.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Zoraptor]

Insurance companies should (and do here even though we have universal/ single payer healthcare as well since they have to give value added over that system) subsidise basic checks because insurance companies should be concerned about the far higher ambulance-at-bottom-of-cliff costs associated with operations, stays in hospital and long term stays on expensive medication than the minimal fence-at-cliff-top of going to a doctor once a year. That's especially true for young children since they're both more susceptible to problems and will have to live with any long term ones for a long time. Prevention is almost always cheaper.

 

Meh, I'd give everyone one free GP visit a year, I'd bet the incidence of the very costly but mostly preventable stuff with high prevalence here like late onset diabetes would plummet.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

 

Everything in USA healthcare is regulated. EVERYTHING. That's deliberate. It has been for most of the 20th century. The State gets more power over you and requires people to seek The State to access it. Corporations get anti-market practices that cartel service and prevent competition. I worked in healthcare for over 6 years--everything from clerical work, paramedic, nuclear diagnostics, and laboratory analytics. Even the BLANKET WARMERS have regulations about where they must be located. The stories I could share. State domination of healthcare is ultimately why I backed out of med school and became a welding engineer & inspector instead.

[Hurlshort]

Ok, so how would you two go about fixing the medical industry?

[Gorgon]

Depends on what you want with healthcare. If it's the most ammount of healthcare for the least ammount of money it makes sense to eliminate profit driven aspect of it as much as possible. You know, like they do in civilized countries. 

[Gorgon]

Who gives a damn about Cuba? What do they have to offer us (besides cigars rolled in the thighs of virgins)?

What do you mean. The point is just to abandon a falied dogmatic approach to Cuban forgein relations. This is a good thing. Shows character being able to examine and learn from your own mistakes. 

[Hurlshort]

We get easier access to baseball prospects too.

[Drowsy Emperor]

 

If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

 

Everything in USA healthcare is regulated. EVERYTHING. That's deliberate. It has been for most of the 20th century. The State gets more power over you and requires people to seek The State to access it. Corporations get anti-market practices that cartel service and prevent competition. I worked in healthcare for over 6 years--everything from clerical work, paramedic, nuclear diagnostics, and laboratory analytics. Even the BLANKET WARMERS have regulations about where they must be located. The stories I could share. State domination of healthcare is ultimately why I backed out of med school and became a welding engineer & inspector instead.

 

 

Well if the corporations get cartel service (I assume you're referring to the inability of the government to negotiate the price of medications, which in effect is a gift to those companies) is state regulation to blame or the fact that corporations own the state and can dictate their terms?

 

I don't see state regulation as a bad thing of itself if the state is truly the master of the house and acts in the interest of the majority, but allowing private interests to create those regulations while posing as the state is a disaster.

 

Anyway, Serbia's health care is on a constant downward spiral, but even so everyone who has insurance (and everyone has it) can get almost everything for free or with relatively cheap participation (that can pile up for those that need handfuls of different meds). And that's in an essentially dead economy with something like 30% unemployment rate. 

 

So, its obviously a matter of political will in the US, not feasibility.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Drowsy Emperor

[BruceVC]

 

 

If we could just get some regulation over pricing, maybe it'd be a bit more sane.

 

Everything in USA healthcare is regulated. EVERYTHING. That's deliberate. It has been for most of the 20th century. The State gets more power over you and requires people to seek The State to access it. Corporations get anti-market practices that cartel service and prevent competition. I worked in healthcare for over 6 years--everything from clerical work, paramedic, nuclear diagnostics, and laboratory analytics. Even the BLANKET WARMERS have regulations about where they must be located. The stories I could share. State domination of healthcare is ultimately why I backed out of med school and became a welding engineer & inspector instead.

 

 

Well if the corporations get cartel service (I assume you're referring to the inability of the government to negotiate the price of medications, which in effect is a gift to those companies) is state regulation to blame or the fact that corporations own the state and can dictate their terms?

 

I don't see state regulation as a bad thing of itself if the state is truly the master of the house and acts in the interest of the majority, but allowing private interests to create those regulations while posing as the state is a disaster.

 

Anyway, Serbia's health care is on a constant downward spiral, but even so everyone who has insurance (and everyone has it) can get almost everything for free or with relatively cheap participation (that can pile up for those that need handfuls of different meds). And that's in an essentially dead economy with something like 30% unemployment rate. 

 

So, its obviously a matter of political will in the US, not feasibility.

 

 

Don't worry too much about the Serbian economy, it will improve 

 

I see your country is doing loads  of marketing on CNN around "Invest in Serbia". This is a prudent move that demonstrates how Serbia is aligned to the West and they are even  going to be joining the EU in the future 

 

Your future lies with the EU as your government has correctly stated, this is good news and bodes well for the overall  economic prosperity of your country 

[Rostere]

I personally think that the entire region of the Balkans has a brighter future, one reason is that the recent past has been so awful. Hopefully all the countries of former Yugoslavia can mend their differences. If there is one goal that the EU should have in that region, it is increasing stability and unity. I know that has been part of the demands placed on the countries in that region for joining the EU. It's definitely an interesting investment zone in any case.

[Kroney]

The commonly held popular misconception is that King Canute was so convinced of his divinely held power that he could stop the tide from coming in. As a result, his feet got wet. So it is with American conservatives and their insurance-based healthcare system. 

 

The only humane solution is a paid for by tax, freely available healthcare system. They will continue to cry communism and you may as well let them, they have as much idea as what constitutes communism as I do string theory. 

Edited December 18, 2014 by Kroney

[Valsuelm]

Depends on what you want with healthcare. If it's the most ammount of healthcare for the least ammount of money it makes sense to eliminate profit driven aspect of it as much as possible. You know, like they do in civilized  communist countries.

Fixed that for you.

 

Part of the big lie of communism is that it's more civilized and enlightened. Of course you know better for others what's good for them though.

 

Nevertheless your suggestion would create oodles of other problems, and certainly would not alleviate many of the problems in the U.S. healthcare system. Which in many ways isn't really a system, and for the most part that's one of the good things about it.

 

The commonly held popular misconception is that King Canute was so convinced of his divinely held power that he could stop the tide from coming in. As a result, his feet got wet. So it is with American conservatives and their insurance-based healthcare system.

 

The only humane solution is a paid for by tax, freely available healthcare system. They will continue to cry communism and you may as well let them, they have as much idea as what constitutes communism as I do string theory.

Spoken like a true commie/useful idiot. So convinced that the 'civilized' and what's 'humane' is on your side, or just disingenuous and using these on high non-arguments to justify your utopiist BS.

 

Tide indeed. Red tide...

 

It's not a conservative vs. healthcare thing, that's one of the myths. Not everyone who is against commie health care is a 'conservative', any more than everyone who is for it is a 'liberal'.

[Kroney]

Haha, right on cue.

 

You've had seventy years of Cold War paranoia and McCarthyism telling you that anything even remotely government controlled is tantamount to Stalinism and nobody's going to convince you differently. However, looking from the outside in, I'd far rather pay my income tax and National Insurance and never have to pay a corporate insurance money or any hospital any medical bills whatsoever and be called a communist than live in the US. 

 

Honestly, I strongly believe the country your founding fathers believed in died with them.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Kroney

[Valsuelm]

Ok, so how would you two go about fixing the medical industry?

Well, I certainly don't have time and never will to fully answer that one as it's an extremely complex situation. Some of what's wrong with it isn't even recognized as being wrong by many, and conversely some of what is perceived to be wrong with it isn't the problem but a symptom. Healthcare aside for a moment, a big problem often is that a large number of people out there want to address the symptom of a problem and not the problem itself. This is true on political as well as personal levels.

 

Many of the problems with the 'healthcare industry' don't even stem from that industry directly itself, but manifest there as the result of other cultural or societal issues.

 

One big issue that is a problem in discussing healthcare, but not healthcare itself, is the question: 'What is healthcare?'. Different people will give you different answers. While nearly everyone will agree that you need to see a doctor if you have a compound fracture or got shot with a gun, many people will disagree that you need to see a doctor if you feel sad, want different sex organs, want an abortion, or even have the common head cold to name a few. Most of the people who think this way generally will have no problem if you want to seek that service out for yourself, and pay for it yourself. Their problem comes in when you ask them to pay for it, either through taxes or by being regulated/mandated into the same insurance pool as those folks.

 

Then there are the myths, of which there are many. One often stated on this forum is how the U.S. healthcare system is 'backwards', 'third world', 'inhumane', 'uncivilized', 'worst in the western world', etc. That's utter BS espoused by the ignorant. While no nation's healthcare system is perfect, the U.S.'s is easily one of the best out there.

 

To dispel two myths with one stone, the other being that Canada's healthcare system is awesome and the U.S.'s isn't near as good... if that was true you wouldn't have oodles of people in Canada going to the U.S. for medical procedure X, nor would you have a necessity for out of pocket medical insurance. The truth is, many Canadian doctors flee Canada for better pay in the U.S., many Canadians cross the border for U.S. healthcare (there is a little of the reverse to, but not near as much), many Canadians absolutely hate the bureaucratic nightmare that is their healthcare system, and many Canadians need and buy medical insurance because the government plan doesn't cover them adequately. Will you hear this in the media? Not much. How do I know this? I live in a border state, I've worked in the insurance industry, I have traveled to Canada many many dozens of times, have worked in Canada, have numerous family members and friends who work in the medical and insurance industries, have numerous friends in Canada (most of whom hate their healthcare system), even once dated a Canadian girl (who was the first to enlighten me on just how @#($ed up the Canadian system is), and personally know numerous people who have suffered under the Canadian healthcare system. Now me saying this of course won't dispel the myth for those who cling to it, but those folks are generally ignorant and reality doesn't matter to them. And from what I've read, though not seen first hand like I have the Canadian system, is that other nations with systems like Canada's have similar nightmarish stories aplenty, namely the U.K. and Sweden for examples. Here's a Brit recently bitching about his healthcare system:

 

 

For the record, in reference to the above, you generally won't see ambulance issues in most places in the U.S. In some large urban centers of socialism like NYC you might (only might), but in most of the nation the ambulance service is run by a relatively small and private local company that's more often than not, not associated directly with any hospital. Where I live, unless the weather is really bad, or you live in the outskirts you'll have an ambulance at your house within ten minutes tops of calling them. In my experience they are often quicker than the police. We have three ambulance companies in the county here, and they put the fourth city run one out of business a few years back. Why? Because they were far more efficiently run, quicker, and provided better service, so people stopped calling the city ambulance. We also have many local volunteer fire departments that back them up throughout the surrounding counties.

 

Now, the utopian BS aside. How to fix the U.S. Healthcare system:

 

First and foremost: Let the free market actually reign.

 

Right now, and for a very very long time now it hasn't. While much of Europe and Canada have a fully or quasi communist healthcare system the U.S.'s system is actually fairly fascist. The regulating agencies, such as the FDA, as well as many prestigious medical associations with clout, such as the AMA, have long since been fully infiltrated and pretty much fully corrupted by various corporations. Namely 'Big Pharma'. To the end of institutionalizing some cartels (or arguably one big one) in the manner Mr. Magniloquent mentioned. The regulations in the healthcare industry, like many in other industries serve to squash competition, innovation, the free market, and many or all of those who would compete with the government protected cartels.

 

The FDA itself is so corrupt that it really should just be abolished. From top to bottom it works by and large for the very industries it's supposed to be protecting the public from. Consequently It hurts far far more than it helps. (Healthcare aside this is also true of some other federal agencies, namely the EPA and SEC) Anyone familiar with the behind the scenes of the pharmaceutical industry or the food industry will tell you this. A few documentaries that will shed some light on the tip of that corruption iceberg off the top of my head are: Food Inc, We Feed the World, The Future of Food, and Generation X.

 

I coincidentally was discussing some aspects of the corruption last night with a friend at a bar who works in the insurance industry who earlier in the evening was wined and dined by some billionaire insurance big wigs in town for business purposes. Much of the meat of the discussion wouldn't really fit here as lots of background knowledge of the industry would be required, and I don't have time to type all of this, but much of that conversation ended up focusing on how to solve the problems created by 'Obamacare' and the issues that are perceived in the medical/insurance/pharma industries by much of the public. To sum up the conclusion of that conversation as well as so many others: 'People need to become informed, because a lot of public perception is based on myth and BS.' There actually are very serious issues with these industries but many of them stem from corruption in government legislation and regulatory agencies.

 

Now, will people become informed? Sadly, unlikely. It's a super rare thing. That said, Obamacare is a game changer. How that game will ultimately be changed is too early to tell. Some of those behind that legislation are hoping for the commie healthcare utopia they think Europe has, and there is a tide towards that end, especially in popular rhetoric. However, most of those folks have been fooled by the fascist cartel already in place, as Obamacare, if you actually read the bill, serves the very interests the folks who want that mythical commie health utopia seek to overthrow and replace with a state run system. And regardless of which bad direction 'obamacare' takes us in (because what we've got coming is much worse than what we've had) there's going to be some serious backlash to it, there already is.

 

Anon.

 

I just wrote far more than I intended and still only touched on a few aspects of the issues surrounding our healthcare system. But really, like so many other things, people getting informed would be the answer. That so many are uninformed is how the system (and other systems) got #@)$ed up in the first place, as evil people take advantage of Average Joe's ignorance and short attention span.

 

I'll end this with a quote from an email rant a friend wrote me last year, to shed a little light on another aspect I've not yet touched on. Note that he sent this as part of a larger conversation, most of which took place outside of email. He worked in the medical industry at the time, but since got fed up and left:

 

 

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2013/05/08/one-hospital-charges-8000-another-38000/

 

I know I've talked with both of you about this. Working at a hospital and lately working on security/HIPAA-centric projects, I've been working with our chargemaster data. The charge rate listed in the data (available as an 11MB excel file at CMS.gov) has nothing to do with anything. It's not a real price. It doesn't correlate to the price anyone pays except for the extremely rare millionaire who doesn't have insurance. Medicare doesn't pay it, 95% of uninsured people can't pay it, insurance companies don't pay it. They're pure negotiating metrics (they certainly don't correlate with quality), obfuscated from any market force. The free market for healthcare in the U.S. is a beaten, dead corpse.

 

A minor, but perfect example of this. I had an ultrasound scan done to see how Kuato (repaired hernia) was holding up (perfectly by the way, 3x stronger than before it even presented). From my insurance portal:

 

"This Claim is for a total of $743.00. Under agreements with your provider, MVP will pay $86.67.

You may be responsible for a total of $40.00 which should be paid directly to your provider."

 

This is just how the system works. It's a perfect example of how a ****ty system forces institutions to do ****ing crazy, stupid things. Economically, especially as nobody is really making (big) money from this system. Most hospitals (non-profit, like mine, which most of them are) run at a ~2.5% (likely less or negative even) operating margin and healthcare insurance plans run at ~3.5%, so they're not making big money (nothing close to pharma). And that is a big reason why nothing moves from a political standpoint. Any downward trend of capital would hurt too many players, especially now. Our system is kind of ****ed.

 

End of rant.

 

 

 

The above mentions an example of obfuscation among other things in the industry. And also briefly touches on who I'd say is at the top of the evil food chain and corruption in the U.S. (as well even as many of the commie health care nations), that being Big Pharma, and the entities who run it as well as a large segment of the global insurance market. Believe it or not, much of that industry is centered in the banking centers of Europe and not the U.S. if you follow the money trail high enough.

 

And all this said, there is no easy painless fix. Some would definitely suffer if we went to a free market system tomorrow (which we of course won't), but in the long run more would and will suffer under the current system or a commie one. Corruption is the core of much of the problem in this issue as well as many others plaguing society, and it's corruption Average Joe is by and large ignorant of.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Valsuelm]

Haha, right on cue.

 

You've had seventy years of Cold War paranoia and McCarthyism telling you that anything even remotely government controlled is tantamount to Stalinism and nobody's going to convince you differently. However, looking from the outside in, I'd far rather pay my income tax and National Insurance and never have to pay a corporate insurance money or any hospital any medical bills whatsoever and be called a communist than live in the US. 

 

Honestly, I strongly believe the country your founding fathers believed in died with them.

 

It's not paranoia. It's calling a spade a spade.

 

And like many who support the kind of system you do, you like the fact that things are magically paid for and that you don't have to deal with it, all the while ignoring the many problems inherent in your system.

 

I'm glad you don't want to live here. We've got too many commies / useful idiots mucking things up here as it is.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Valsuelm

[Kroney]

You misunderstand me, you suggested that somebody else could move out of the US if he didn't like it. I was supporting that statement. The rest of the West is indeed a lot more palatable to live in and I'd also suggest he'd be better off out of it.

[Barothmuk]

Lol at calling the Canadian and European model "communistic".

 

The single-payer medical system still operates according to market/comodity logic via a system of taxation; medicines and tech are still owned and sold by multi-national corporations (who also partake in the more brutal aspects of globalization); capitalist logic still determines price and value; and due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall medicare gradually gets more expensive which encourages the government to submit to so-called "austerity measures" which means privatization will continue to creep in.

 

That said the "Canadian/European" model is still significantly better than that of the U.S.

You misunderstand me, you suggested that somebody else could move out of the US if he didn't like it. I was supporting that statement.

Those who are the greatest victims of the U.S system can not.

 

I have family in the U.S and they're certainly not capable of uprooting their entire families/lives and moving to another country.

Edited December 18, 2014 by Barothmuk

[BruceVC]

Lol at calling the Canadian and European model "communistic".

 

The single-payer medical system still operates according to market/comodity logic via a system of taxation; medicines and tech are still owned and sold by multi-national corporations (who also partake in the more brutal aspects of globalization); capitalist logic still determines price and value; and due to the tendency of the rate of profit to fall medicare gradually gets more expensive which encourages the government to submit to so-called "austerity measures" which means privatization will continue to creep in.

 

That said the "Canadian/European" model is still significantly better than that of the U.S.

You misunderstand me, you suggested that somebody else could move out of the US if he didn't like it. I was supporting that statement.

Those who are the greatest victims of the U.S system can not.

 

I have family in the U.S and they're certainly not capable of uprooting their entire families/lives and moving to another country.

 

 

Where do you live Baro, I thought you did live in the USA?

[Barothmuk]

[Hurlshort]

Val, thank you for the response.  I'm actually right there with you on the opinion about the big pharmaceutical companies.