What does the Combat Log lack?

[Kjaamor]

That's not the point, you need to be able to read the combat log. Yes, you can increase the size yourself, but mimimalism for the sake of minimalism pisses me off. They should be doing the complete opposite with the portrait area.

 

At first I was going to ask you to chill out over such a minor feature, but then I remembered that they talked so much about skeuomorphic UIs during the game's creation and I guess given that neither that nor minimalism achieved particular dominance within the forums you are allowed to be somewhat irritated that they went one way so far.

 

Not that I particularly care, though my vote was with camp skeuomorph.

[crackwise]

Probably it has to remain how it is, however, I really don't like all this real number thing going on, e.g. 2.3 damage,  12.7 damage etc.

 

I wish things were rounded and appeared as natural numbers. 

[Shevek]

Combat log needs to be switched with the character portraits or something so you can actually read it on the fly.

I would do something like this to put the log in the center and use the side more. Just messing around and whipped this up. Its not perfect but its how I would do it.

 

[Lychnidos]

Ohhh man . It's hard to say this, but there is no future in UI design for you.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 8, 2014 by Lychnidos

[Hassat Hunter]

I still don't get why we don't get a L-shaped IE-like UI, but I'm pretty sure I've stated that in over a dozen threads by now... so let's look at that combat log.

 

* I agree it has too many colors. Also rather odd white is rare rather than common. Why is the standard green?

* Colors could be used for rare instances, like crit. Oddly, crit has no special color!

* Not sure that stash info needs to belong there.

[Shevek]

Ohhh man . It's hard to say this, but there is no future in UI design for you.

 

 

 

Haha, I admit, its crappy looking. I just want the portaits higher so I can see things easier without looking up and down so much.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Shevek

[Lychnidos]

 

Ohhh man . It's hard to say this, but there is no future in UI design for you.

 

 

 

Haha, I admit, its crappy looking. I just want the portaits higher so I can see things easier without looking up and down so much.

 

 

The arrangement it's not bad for a handheld device, but for PC portraits split between two opposite sides is really bad for anyone not suffering from strabismus (bad joke), and also it introduces to much movement for a mouse only player.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Lychnidos

[Lephys]

I really think that things being lined up helps out a lot. If you keep having to skip around to find damage values, for example, it's harder to compare things than if they're all in a line. Also, so long as there's any kind of decimal damage being shown, it's a lot clearer when the decimal always lines up.

 

So, what if we just had a standard sort-of-table setup?

 

[Actor] [Action] [Target] Damage/result? Then, you could have the more verbose stuff be mouse-over, and/or whatever levels of verboseness you want wherever, via options.

 

Then, I think the largest impact of color coding at that point would be, much like anything else in a game like this, to differentiate between the actions of enemies and the actions of friendlies.

 

I'm also going to second the use of icons, as they can be moused-over as well to see the name, for whatever reason you need to see it.

 

Anywho, you'd see something like this:

 

 

BB Fighter *attack icon* Goblin (Graze) 10 Burn, Hobbled.

BB Cleric *spell icon* BB Fighter (Crit) 30 Heal, Dispel.

 

 

So, glancing at that, you know The Fighter attacked a Goblin, hit it for 10 Fire damage and applied Hobbled, and that the attack was a Graze. If you need to, you can look at the math, to figure out why it was a Graze, or how long Hobbled is going to last, etc. Then, you know that the Cleric critically healed the Fighter for 30 Stamina, and that at least one negative effect was dispelled. If you need to see what spell was cast by the Cleric, you can mouse-over the spell icon. If you need to see what effect was dispelled, you can mouse-over that. If you need to see specifically what weapon the Fighter attacked with, you can mouse-over the attack icon.

 

But, at a glance, you know what has occurred. I think, really, glancing at the combat log should tell you as much as you'd expect to know without taking the time to pause and investigate further.

 

The above layout can be tweaked a bit (there are different ways to differentiate healing versus damage, etc.), but I think it works quite nicely, and is an amalgamation of a lot of suggestions in here.

[Gairnulf]

I really think that things being lined up helps out a lot. If you keep having to skip around to find damage values, for example, it's harder to compare things than if they're all in a line. Also, so long as there's any kind of decimal damage being shown, it's a lot clearer when the decimal always lines up.

 

So, what if we just had a standard sort-of-table setup?

 

[Actor] [Action] [Target] Damage/result? Then, you could have the more verbose stuff be mouse-over, and/or whatever levels of verboseness you want wherever, via options.

 

Then, I think the largest impact of color coding at that point would be, much like anything else in a game like this, to differentiate between the actions of enemies and the actions of friendlies.

 

I'm also going to second the use of icons, as they can be moused-over as well to see the name, for whatever reason you need to see it.

 

Anywho, you'd see something like this:

 

 

BB Fighter *attack icon* Goblin (Graze) 10 Burn, Hobbled.

BB Cleric *spell icon* BB Fighter (Crit) 30 Heal, Dispel.

 

 

So, glancing at that, you know The Fighter attacked a Goblin, hit it for 10 Fire damage and applied Hobbled, and that the attack was a Graze. If you need to, you can look at the math, to figure out why it was a Graze, or how long Hobbled is going to last, etc. Then, you know that the Cleric critically healed the Fighter for 30 Stamina, and that at least one negative effect was dispelled. If you need to see what spell was cast by the Cleric, you can mouse-over the spell icon. If you need to see what effect was dispelled, you can mouse-over that. If you need to see specifically what weapon the Fighter attacked with, you can mouse-over the attack icon.

 

But, at a glance, you know what has occurred. I think, really, glancing at the combat log should tell you as much as you'd expect to know without taking the time to pause and investigate further.

 

The above layout can be tweaked a bit (there are different ways to differentiate healing versus damage, etc.), but I think it works quite nicely, and is an amalgamation of a lot of suggestions in here.

I wanted to reply to your post yesterday but I was on mobile. My main arguments against mousing over objects in the combat log remain: 1. mousing over requires you to move the mouse, not just your eyes from one point on the screen to another, which doesn't seem like much work when I describe it, but when you have to do it very often, chances are that you'll find yourself avoiding it ("Nevermind, it's not that important what roll I hit him/missed with"), and 2. Mousing over something means tooltips, and tooltips cover other contents of the combat log.

 

I find color coding enemies' vs party mebers' actions useful in PoE, but having two lines per action plus color coded names was still enough color coding for me in the IE games (although that's just me of course). I wouldn't mind color coding the whole lines, as long as the colors' saturation is balanced between character names and content, so that sight is directed towards the important information in the order in which it should be - scan the feed to find the name of the character and then look to the right of the character's name.

 

The main problem with icons I can imagine (the developers will probably come up with others) is how they would scale with text. I hope they've found the time to implement some changes to the combat log for the next update of the BB so we can get a feel of the difference with its version so far.

[Lephys]

I wanted to reply to your post yesterday but I was on mobile. My main arguments against mousing over objects in the combat log remain: 1. mousing over requires you to move the mouse, not just your eyes from one point on the screen to another, which doesn't seem like much work when I describe it, but when you have to do it very often, chances are that you'll find yourself avoiding it ("Nevermind, it's not that important what roll I hit him/missed with"), and 2. Mousing over something means tooltips, and tooltips cover other contents of the combat log.

I appreciate the response. My thinking on the "you can just mouse-over to see that" was that, either everything's going fine in combat (You see that everyone's hitting or critting most of the time, and are satisfied with those results), OR it isn't, in which case you're most likely going to pause to take a moment to figure out what's going wrong. In other words, the time when you'd need to see the math is also the time when you'd probably be evaluating your commands/tactics. I just can't see people, in a lot of situations, being able to glance at any amount of math other there (sometimes with multiple modifiers contributing to a final roll), figuring out exactly what all's causing "the problem," and re-issuing commands to remedy it, all real-time, in any kind of effective fashion. Especially while things are still scrolling.

 

However, I also won't say that's impossible. That was just my immediate thinking on the matter. The math seems to be secondary in priority to the effects of the math, really, and the actions that are occurring. BUT, we could possibly put in a column just for the math. OR, maybe a toggle-button hotkey to press to see the math in-place of the typically-displayed stuff on that line. Or something along those lines (pun completely intended). Do you think that would help, perhaps? I don't really know if all that would fit in there, but I've seen several UI mockups that were very nice, in which the combat log had WAY more horizontal space than it could ever need, so maybe it would all fit. It depends. Just trying to get an opinion on the rough idea before worrying with a detailed plan for exactly how all this would go on there.

 

I find color coding enemies' vs party mebers' actions useful in PoE, but having two lines per action plus color coded names was still enough color coding for me in the IE games (although that's just me of course). I wouldn't mind color coding the whole lines, as long as the colors' saturation is balanced between character names and content, so that sight is directed towards the important information in the order in which it should be - scan the feed to find the name of the character and then look to the right of the character's name.

Yeah, I don't know a ton about the art of color-application in UI functionality on a screen, but it seems like it's definitely at least potentially useful for locating distinctive entries.

 

The main problem with icons I can imagine (the developers will probably come up with others) is how they would scale with text. I hope they've found the time to implement some changes to the combat log for the next update of the BB so we can get a feel of the difference with its version so far.

Well, I was thinking of very simple, easily-read icons designed specifically for the log. That seems the best route. That's also why I just stuck with general actions, like "attack" (weapon attack, that is... "standard" attack), or "spell/ability." It would be great if the specific spell/ability icon went there, etc., but that seems a lot less feasible to pull off at such a small size. That, and putting the name there would be great, but some of the spells (in particular) have reallllly long names. Or like... the Chanter abilities. So... *shrug*. Just brainstorming options at this point, heh.

 

Also, what if indention were used to indicate sub-entries? Such as when a Wizard hurls a Fireball, and it hits 5 enemies. Instead of "Wizard hits Enemy A with Fireball for 10 fire damage" on every line, maybe it could just go:

 

"Wizard (spell icon) hits Enemy A 10(fire)

(spell icon) hits Enemy B 9(fire)

(spell icon) grazes Enemy C 4(fire)

(spell icon) crits Enemy D 17(fire)"

 

I know that's not a huge change, and you still have the same number of lines (not sure there's a way to effectively shorten the line usage), but it at least differentiates between individual action lines and lines that are all pertaining to one action. Taking the example above, if you had someone else using a flaming sword, and they struck a foe with that at roughly the same time the Fireball hit, it's possible they'd get jumbled up in there somewhere. With this, you know, at a glance, that all the lines without an Actor are part of the same action as the first line above them with an actor's name. That, and/or maybe it would help to tag a line AOE or something.

[constantine]

Since Obsidian appeared to be quite terrible at it, and since there is a crowd that cares so much for this game to the point that they defy and outright deny many of the developer team choices:

 

 

I am quite certain that those people will mod the UI, combat HUD and many more aesthetic choices. I have faith in them

 

Oh ! Obsidian can also try to do their thing and help the modders have a more practical foundation to work on.

 

So, if you people want to continue discussing for all these, go ahead. Judging by the sort of changes proposed by backer feedback that have been implemented in the game, I find it pointless.

[Lephys]

I find jumping to such conclusions pointless. This whole thing is an iterative process. They can't just go "Hey, don't worry, we'll make the UI later. Let's just test the game with absolutely no UI! 8D!". So, they make one. They don't sit around nurturing it into a responsible adult UI with a job and a steady retirement fund just yet. But it's there, at least. Then, as they go through, they make improvements to it.

 

They don't exactly have a 50-million-dollar team to have people just 'round-the-clock UI-in' it up.

 

Again, when they present something and say "Okay, we're TOTALLY done with this and it's the SHYTE!", and it's still got huge problems, that's when it'll make sense to go all "Obviously Obsidian are incompetent!".

 

Saying it early just makes you seem like that kid from Wedding Crashers. "MAKE ME A BICYCLE, CLOWN!"

[Quantics]

What does the Combat Log lack?

 

 

S P A C E

[Lord Wafflebum]

I'd bet OE takes the most feedback from us when it comes to UI, when they're ready to work on the UI. InXile did a great job of working with the community on the UI for Wasteland 2, and the two companies seem to have similar philosophies when it comes to using their community. From the last couple updates I think they're more occupied with their recurrent save/load issues and combat mechanics. 

 

I'm sure they are also aware of the firestorm that is the DA:I UI madness. If you don't work with your fanbase, especially when it comes to UI, that's when your game sells for half price a few weeks after release.

 

Also, from some comments I've seen from Josh Sawyer, he seems very receptive to UI criticism and feedback.

[Cluas]

Hey good thread ...

My comment is regarding the log, outside combat:

"Game paused" message would be nice...  And perhaps the info from the load screen? Sometimes I can't read it before it is loaded... 

[Gairnulf]

Hey good thread ...

My comment is regarding the log, outside combat:

"Game paused" message would be nice...  And perhaps the info from the load screen? Sometimes I can't read it before it is loaded...

 

After I reported it as a bug, although they probably knew about it anyway, the loading screen tips are being shown in the messages tab of the combat log in v364.

 

The IE games were showing the "paused" message in their log, but I wonder if it's really the kind of information that the player may need to consult in retrospect. PoE shows a message on the screen, and I find it enough for me.

[Cluas]

 

Hey good thread ...

My comment is regarding the log, outside combat:

"Game paused" message would be nice...  And perhaps the info from the load screen? Sometimes I can't read it before it is loaded...

After I reported it as a bug, although they probably knew about it anyway, the loading screen tips are being shown in the messages tab of the combat log in v364.

 

The IE games were showing the "paused" message in their log, but I wonder if it's really the kind of information that the player may need to consult in retrospect. PoE shows a message on the screen, and I find it enough for me.

 

Yes, just found out. I didn't notice yesterday. must be the scrolling-bug

About the pause msg on screen: It should be in the log too. I would much rather have all the info collected there, than all over the screen

[Adam Brennecke]

We know the combat log is not ideal in it's current state and have been discussing how to make it better. We are going to meet with QA next week and figure out how to make it better given the time allowed. Thanks for all of the feedback - it is very helpful. 

[Katarack21]

Awesome. I like all these ideas. Many of them seem like they'll be quick and easy to implement, and will provide improvements. The logs I've seen in videos and the screenshots here, it kind of looks like a mess.

[Sensuki]

Allow us to swap it's position on the screen so we can read it from our natural left side.

[Katarack21]

I really want it on the left side. Like, so much.

Being on the right like that just feels like an unnatural angle to keep my face pointed. It makes me much less likely to pay attention to it.

[Leferd]

Allow us to swap it's position on the screen so we can read it from our natural left side.

Left or even centered would be better. Making the UI positioning customizable would be ideal.

[Clean&Clear]

 

About the pause msg on screen: It should be in the log too. I would much rather have all the info collected there, than all over the screen

 

 

IMO it is irrelevant and superfluos information considering battle. When reading combat log, you want the information about what just (or earlier) happened, you don't need to know whether the game was paused or not at that moment.

 

Game paused is a status information that should be displayed somewhere else so there is more space in the log for important information.

[Hormalakh]

We know the combat log is not ideal in it's current state and have been discussing how to make it better. We are going to meet with QA next week and figure out how to make it better given the time allowed. Thanks for all of the feedback - it is very helpful.

Some things can be fixed in post-production and maybe in expansions, eh?

[Lord Wafflebum]

 

We know the combat log is not ideal in it's current state and have been discussing how to make it better. We are going to meet with QA next week and figure out how to make it better given the time allowed. Thanks for all of the feedback - it is very helpful.

Some things can be fixed in post-production and maybe in expansions, eh?

 

As I mentioned before I don't think the combat log and UI were necessarily at the top of their priority list. It sounds like they're devoting resources to it now, but before I get the impression their focus was on combat mechanics and bug squashing.