Stop Right Now Thankyou Very Much

[Yonjuro]

 

And he did a darned good job too.

Lol. Since I didn't play the beta I cannot be 100% sure but I read enough about missing options that that is not likely. The game does not come close to complexity of NWN2, and IE games still are on whole another level.

 

 

 No need to lol. If you haven't played the beta, you're in for a pleasant surprise.  If you go by the most critical comments, you're getting a very skewed idea about the game. Some people have been completely over the top with the negativity (and, frankly, just nastiness towards the devs).

 

 PoE still needs tuning and there are still bugs (like the exploit that Sensuki posted in this thread), and there will be more bugs found (I expect Sensuki alone to find at least four of five more showstoppers before launch, at the rate he's going) but the game isn't going to be a disaster -- for most people. If, for example, someone can't live with the XP system, they will go to their grave cursing Josh Sawyer with their dying breath. You should let them. Just enjoy the game. It will be good. If we're lucky, it will be great.

 

 (And someone will mod in combat XP so the people cursing Mr. Sawyer will be doing so in vain).

Edited December 9, 2014 by Yonjuro

[MReed]

 

 (And someone will mod in combat XP so the people cursing Mr. Sawyer will be doing so in vain).

 

 

Off topic:  [For the record:  I don't support combat XP] And players who use this mod will hit max level a third of the way through the game, then complain that the game is too easy.  Unlike engagement, this really isn't something that can be modded into the game, at least not without an enormous amount of work (reducing all other XP rewards to ensure that leveling occurs at the expected rate, basically)

 

On topic:  I tend to agree that there are a significant number of backers that are looking for NWN 3 (at the very least, this explains the reason that some are supporting engagement) -- but I suspect that these backers will be disappointed with the lack of mod support and the lack of multi-classing / prestige classes (reducing character customization options). 

 

Nevertheless, I don't see any reason to believe that the game will at least be as good as, and quite possibly superior to, other RPGs released in the past 2-3 years -- but that's as much an indictment of the low quality of PRG releases during the past three years as it is praise of the quality of this game.

[Malekith]

MReed, on 10 Dec 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:MReed, on 10 Dec 2014 - 12:29 AM, said:

 

Yonjuro, on 09 Dec 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:Yonjuro, on 09 Dec 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

 

 (And someone will mod in combat XP so the people cursing Mr. Sawyer will be doing so in vain).

 

 

Nevertheless, I don't see any reason to believe that the game will at least be as good as, and quite possibly superior to, other RPGs released in the past 2-3 years -- but that's as much an indictment of the low quality of PRG releases during the past three years as it is praise of the quality of this game.

I believe this game will be far superior to any RPG released in the last 10 years -- but that's as much an indictment of the low quality of PRG releases during the past three years as it is praise of the quality of this game.

The hard part is for this game to hit BG2-PST levels.

Edited December 9, 2014 by Malekith

[Lephys]

I just noticed in the other thread that Josh has said they'll be adding in "cooldowns" for re-engagement of the same target, along with some other changes.

 

See... I repeat, until they say "Everything's PERFECT! WE LOVE the current system!", I'm going to consider anyone running around and shouting "The sky is falling!" to be an irrational human being.

 

Okay, next up... The UI has some issues... so REMOVE IT!

 

Spell FX... issues... REMOVE THEM! I want invisible spell FX. I just want everyone to wave their hands around, maybe shout some cool words, and then have to check the combat log to even see what happened. 'Cause that's way better than dealing with a system that just so happens to produce unwanted effects currently. u_u...

[Sensuki]

Poor humour.

[Namutree]

 It will be good. If we're lucky, it will be great.

 

Far as I'm concerned great isn't even on the table, but good is possibility. At worst it'll be decent. Wait for poe2 though; that could be great.

[Lephys]

Poor humour.

Oh? I apologize. I'll try to make it funnier next time.

 

However, I've yet to see an actual distinction between that exaggerated line of reasoning, and whatever's behind "ENGAGEMENT MUST BE BURNED!"

 

Is there some certain number of easily-changeable problems with a given system that suddenly takes it from reparable to hopeless? Why are the UI and spell FX systems safe, while engagement isn't? Or the Ranger class, for that matter? The shared health pool and functionality of the animal companion has taken some fire for being troublesome. Change, or outright remove? And why?

[Sensuki]

If you have not figured out why people do not want to play with the Melee Engagement system after the 8 or so threads that it has been discussed in then I honestly don't know what else to say other than use the search function and read them again. I'm modding it out on release and I can only hope that Obsidian fix the animation glitches with moving characters between now and then.

[Hormalakh]

 "Everything's PERFECT! WE LOVE the current system!",

 

yes yes. nothing to see here. move along.

[Seari]

Using the ignore function is justified.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Using the ignore function is justified.

If you ignore Lephys, the word count on a page he posted on would probably be less than half.

 

And engagement is dumb because it's attempting to fix a RTwP problem using a turn-based solution. One would think that mechanics designed explicitly for RTwP would try something a bit different than copypasta of 3rd edition DnD.

[Captain Shrek]

And he did a darned good job too.

 

Err what?

 

Not that I think you are wrong or anything. It's just that this qualification is pretty much insubstantial. As in, there is no real way to compare D&D sets with the PoE sets. Right now, you are just basing your judgement on "feels". 

 

If at all there be an objective criterion, then it would be not only NOT obvious at this stage (with a demo, not even a real beta) but also subject to fluctuations as the core mechanics of PoE has changed a lot since its inception. And I mean A LOT.

 

There was regeneration. Now there is none.

There were cooldowns, now it is per rest. 

Spells were to become per encounter from per rest. At will from per encounter. Now, NOT. etc.

Stats were constantly altered to the point even now it is not certain they are to perform as they do.

Skills are completely in the limbo. 

 

 

These are very crucial design differences. I would hazard that the game does not really have a fixed and clear design goal in terms of mechanics. 

[Sensuki]

I would hazard that the game does not really have a fixed and clear design goal in terms of mechanics.

And this is one of the reasons why combat isn't that great IMO

[Shevek]

 

And he did a darned good job too.

 

Err what?

 

Not that I think you are wrong or anything. It's just that this qualification is pretty much insubstantial. As in, there is no real way to compare D&D sets with the PoE sets. Right now, you are just basing your judgement on "feels". 

 

If at all there be an objective criterion, then it would be not only NOT obvious at this stage (with a demo, not even a real beta) but also subject to fluctuations as the core mechanics of PoE has changed a lot since its inception. And I mean A LOT.

 

There was regeneration. Now there is none.

There were cooldowns, now it is per rest. 

Spells were to become per encounter from per rest. At will from per encounter. Now, NOT. etc.

Stats were constantly altered to the point even now it is not certain they are to perform as they do.

Skills are completely in the limbo. 

 

 

These are very crucial design differences. I would hazard that the game does not really have a fixed and clear design goal in terms of mechanics. 

 

A few points:

1. I have played the beta for many many dozens of hours. I gone far enough to not only play and discuss but to record and reflect. Seriously, I have looked at how I played PoE and reflected as I played through IWD:EE (one right after the other). If you want to ask me to explain where my judgements come from, fine. But please do not hazard a guess why you think I believe something and then state it as fact.

2. Objectivity on subjective judgements? What? Everyone of us have played the IE games in their own way and has played this in their own way. There is no objective measure on anything here. Sawyer set out to do the early/mid levels in a way that improves on IE titles. MY experience suggests he has nailed it.

3. Did the IE games have a better skills implementation? Are you saying that stats in the IE games were implemented better than the current implementation? Really? These are all non-issues in the context of my statements. Also, attempting to hazard a guess regarding the current design goals of devs is pure conjecture.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Shevek

[Lord Wafflebum]

Wow, the amount of hate Sensuki has been getting for this thread is definitely over the top. I may not always agree with Sensuki's conclusions, but I think it's fantastic that he uses actual game data to make his arguments. I'm personally very happy he challenges Josh Sawyer and the devs on their designs. I think OE is mature enough where they can handle constructive criticism and Sensuki's efforts WILL help to make this game better come full release. I wish more people here would appreciate that.

[Shevek]

Wow, the amount of hate Sensuki has been getting for this thread is definitely over the top. I may not always agree with Sensuki's conclusions, but I think it's fantastic that he uses actual game data to make his arguments. I'm personally very happy he challenges Josh Sawyer and the devs on their designs. I think OE is mature enough where they can handle constructive criticism and Sensuki's efforts WILL help to make this game better come full release. I wish more people here would appreciate that.

 

I agree with that. I think its great that he has identified those abuses with engagement. The devs have addressed those issues and the game is better as a result.

[Captain Shrek]

 

1. I have played the beta for many many dozens of hours. I gone far enough to not only play and discuss but to record and reflect. Seriously, I have looked at how I played PoE and reflected as I played through IWD:EE (one right after the other). If you want to ask me to explain where my judgements come from, fine. But please do not hazard a guess why you think I believe something and then state it as fact.

 

 

 

I din't doubt that your feels come from actual gameplay. Unfortunately, they are from the BB which is a very short snippet of the game and it (hopefully) is not representative of the final build in terms of encounter design. I think you will agree with me that that this aspect is probably one of the most important parts of the game. So really, none of us can say what the final game will be like.

 

 

2. Objectivity on subjective judgements? What? Everyone of us have played the IE games in their own way and has played this in their own way. There is no objective measure on anything here. Sawyer set out to do the early/mid levels in a way that improves on IE titles. MY experience suggests he has nailed it.

 

 

 

 

So we agree.

 

3. Did the IE games have a better skills implementation? Are you saying that stats in the IE games were implemented better than the current implementation? Really? These are all non-issues in the context of my statements. Also, attempting to hazard a guess regarding the current design goals of devs is pure conjecture.

 

 

 

 

IE games had horrible stat implementation. 

 

BUT. 

 

One should bear in mind that the last IE game was 12 years back. Much has happened since then and many games that can be held as improvements over IE design have been made. 

 

I mean OE themselves made a game called NWN2. Maybe you heard about it. This game is a step BACK from that. And please! No **** about how that was not an IE game. By that standard even this one is not. If we are talking about how to improve UPON IE games, then that discussion has to be holistic and meaningful. Restricting to one category is hardly a viable course of discussion.

 

Not to mention, games like Darklands were also thrown around as sources of inspiration. As of now all of I have seen in that regard is the horrible endurance mechanic and starting screens. I wonder if the developers actually played Darklands or watched youtube videos of it. What made it so special, was the setting and the skill system. No one remembers it for the combat or the stamina. 

Edited December 10, 2014 by Captain Shrek

[archangel979]

 

 

And he did a darned good job too.

Lol. Since I didn't play the beta I cannot be 100% sure but I read enough about missing options that that is not likely. The game does not come close to complexity of NWN2, and IE games still are on whole another level.

 

 

 No need to lol. If you haven't played the beta, you're in for a pleasant surprise.  If you go by the most critical comments, you're getting a very skewed idea about the game. Some people have been completely over the top with the negativity (and, frankly, just nastiness towards the devs).

 

 PoE still needs tuning and there are still bugs (like the exploit that Sensuki posted in this thread), and there will be more bugs found (I expect Sensuki alone to find at least four of five more showstoppers before launch, at the rate he's going) but the game isn't going to be a disaster -- for most people. If, for example, someone can't live with the XP system, they will go to their grave cursing Josh Sawyer with their dying breath. You should let them. Just enjoy the game. It will be good. If we're lucky, it will be great.

 

 (And someone will mod in combat XP so the people cursing Mr. Sawyer will be doing so in vain).

 

While I can agree with you that this game will have at least OK combat, that is not what we were promised. NWN2 had OK combat, DAO had OK combat. But we were promised IE level of awesome combat. I will not settle for anything less and will be calling out OE for it.

[Shevek]

Shrek:

 

1. I disagree with you that encounter design is worse than similar locales in the IE games (Beregost, Trademeet, etc), However, that has absolutely nothing to do with what my comment was about. I was not commenting on encounter design. Please reread.

 

2. Do we agree?

 

3.

(A) When the game is made is not relevant to my comment.

(B) Also, NWN2 is not relevant. I am not talking about NWN2 or South Park or NV or Alpha Protocol. Please reread my comment and what it was in response to.

(C ) This may be the only part of your response that is relevant. We can disagree on the dual health system but I do believe that OE's willingness to innovate here is to be commended. Personally, I feel this is a huge improvement since my adventuring day is longer than the IE games (IE games: fight, rest, fight, rest, fight, rest). There are always going to be quibbles over what if they did x or y. That being said, I was when excited the system was announced and I am happy after playing with it. It accomplishes design goals and mechanics smoothly support the implementation.

Edited December 10, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

my adventuring day is longer than the IE games (IE games: fight, rest, fight, rest, fight, rest)

Uh what?

 

My adventuring day is like twice or triple as long in any of the Infinity Engine games than it is in Pillars of Eternity.

[Seari]

Select all->attack must not go so well in the IE games as in PoE. Must be frustrating when your characters die all the time and they don't get up and heal automatically.

[Shevek]

 

my adventuring day is longer than the IE games (IE games: fight, rest, fight, rest, fight, rest)

Uh what?

 

My adventuring day is like twice or triple as long in any of the Infinity Engine games than it is in Pillars of Eternity.

Really? Perhaps it comes down to playstyle but I am going through way more encounters before resting in PoE than IE.

 

Seari:

 

Its also to get all my spell protection/protection busters back, to get the hastes back, etc. Also, a bit of a separate issue, but IE was all about going in, dieing, and doing do overs with different memmed spells (less so in successive playthroughs).

Edited December 10, 2014 by Shevek

[IndiraLightfoot]

 

my adventuring day is longer than the IE games (IE games: fight, rest, fight, rest, fight, rest)

Uh what?

 

My adventuring day is like twice or triple as long in any of the Infinity Engine games than it is in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Same here, Sensuki. And I have also recently played both PoE BB and BG1+IWD2. I can play much longer before stopping for a breather or any inn rest than in the IE games. This has been true for me since August. If I'd hazard a guess, since Shevek and I play rather similarly, is that you use lots of more skills and also more characters. I've watched most of your vids with great pleasure, although I play rather differently - it often gets a bit resource-intensive compared to the more economical combat style of Shevek's and mine.

Edited December 10, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[morhilane]

 

 

my adventuring day is longer than the IE games (IE games: fight, rest, fight, rest, fight, rest)

Uh what?

 

My adventuring day is like twice or triple as long in any of the Infinity Engine games than it is in Pillars of Eternity.

 

Same here, Sensuki. And I have also recently played both PoE BB and BG1+IWD2. I can play much longer before stopping for a breather or any inn rest than in the IE games. This has been true for me since August. If I'd hazard a guess, since Shevek and I play rather similarly, is that you use lots of more skills and also more characters. I've watched most of your vids with great pleasure, although I play rather differently - it often gets a bit resource-intensive compared to the more economical combat style of Shevek's and mine.

 

 

I'm about the same pace in PoE than in the IE games, all on normal difficulty. It's really a question of playstyles, it would appear.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Select all->attack must not go so well in the IE games as in PoE. Must be frustrating when your characters die all the time and they don't get up and heal automatically.

To be fair, it's entirely possible to do that in vanilla BG when you're level 3ish and fighting gibberlings and stuff. If course, I play with SCS so that doesn't really apply.