Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

Googling online harassment, these are the graphs I found.

 

%Men harassed: 47%

 

%Women harassed: 37%

 

Source: http://www.pewinternet.org/2014/10/22/online-harassment/

 

Men and Women

 

Standard v 18-29 years old

 

Standard v 18-24 Men v 18-24 Women

 

Harassment by Age and place of occurance

 

Harassment by Gender and place of occurance

 

"Welcomeness" in online situations.

 

It seems to me that harassment is more of an internet problem generally than a gaming problem specifically. In addition, women seem to be more welcome in most gaming environments then men.

 

Therefore I'm going to remain skeptical on the unsubstantiated claims made in that video, until they can prove their statements.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

To be fair there is no conclusive evidence to show otherwise (that I am aware of). The main difference in it is the form the harassment takes. Trolls attack what they can see and women respond to other things than men, mainly they respond to sexism. Nobody is going to take another dude being sexist towards men very seriously so it's not a good avenue for sexism. You only have to look at #GamerGate to see how men react to sexism when it comes from the opposite sex - nothing gets their boxers in a twist faster than a mention of #KillAllMen or being called cis het male scum.

 

However, I've mentioned before that I'm friends (or other) with a lot of female gamers (and devs) and yes, the harassment they do get is pretty much all sexist. Nothing I get compares, really. I know Volourn will disagree because he gets nasty harassment himself, but in my personal, anecdotal experience, yes, women get more harassed than men on the internet.

 

F

 

To be fair there is no conclusive evidence to show otherwise (that I am aware of). The main difference in it is the form the harassment takes. Trolls attack what they can see and women respond to other things than men, mainly they respond to sexism. Nobody is going to take another dude being sexist towards men very seriously so it's not a good avenue for sexism. You only have to look at #GamerGate to see how men react to sexism when it comes from the opposite sex - nothing gets their boxers in a twist faster than a mention of #KillAllMen or being called cis het male scum.

 

However, I've mentioned before that I'm friends (or other) with a lot of female gamers (and devs) and yes, the harassment they do get is pretty much all sexist. Nothing I get compares, really. I know Volourn will disagree because he gets nasty harassment himself, but in my personal, anecdotal experience, yes, women get more harassed than men on the internet.

 

Funny you mention this but I was going to ask you the same question. You have shared with us harassment that your girlfriend has been subjected to, like that older man wanting to meet her, so I would assume you will agree with my point that its a real problem how women are sometimes, and I would argue fairly regularly, harassed on the Internet

 

And that's all I really want to achieve from my original point that the video highlights. Harassment of women is real and prevalent and we need to condemn it

[Blarghagh]

Well, that kind of confirms some of my preconceptions. Women don't really get harassed more, but in different ways that are seen as more violating. Men seem to be harassed for their opinions, actions, etc. when women can often be harassed for being women and a lot of their harassment takes form in a sexual manner.

 

EDIT: You ninja'd me Bruce. Yes, I do condemn harassment of women (and I like to think everyone here does, even if they don't agree on how much it happens and how severe it is compared to harassment of men) although that also somewhat falls under condemning harassment in general (even though to me personally it's a bigger deal because I am much more in contact with harassment of women than I am with harassment of men). But I have to add to this that I haven't been a stranger to harassment myself, as I hinted at before I have been stalked myself and I'm sure a lot of others here have been as well.

 

I think a lot of the problems in the conversation is that men feel alienated because these things are considered "women's issues" when they're really not exclusively women's issues. It's all fine and dandy to go "women are harassed more and we need to condemn it", but I think a lot of men get rubbed the wrong way because as the data shown a few posts up demonstrates, men get harassed about as much too and they feel like their experience is getting glossed over in favour of women. I think a lot of the anti-feminist slant of... pretty much the majority of the internet recently can be attributed to that.

 

EDIT EDIT: Added some more because I felt it merited more discussion.

[BruceVC]

"Hold on a second, do you really believe that the harassment of women on the Internet is not much worse than the harassment of men?"

 

Yup.

 

As for the SJWS attacks on BIO. I'm not surprised that you are blessedly ignorant of them. Can't have anything hurting the narrative. The SJWs are mad that the character Sera (who is a lesbian) says something mean about other women so that proves that BIO is anti woman and are sexist. LMAO

 

Volo I have asked for links so I can confirm what you are saying? Can you not provide them, I can't find anything ?

[Volourn]

 I don't take kindly to being ordered to provide [proof since I have nothing to prove espiciaily to a SJW.

 

\Whether you believe me or not doesn't change the fact that SJWs bashed BIO for being sexist.

 

I'll give you a hint. I saw the link on the Codex to a twitter post.  Dig into one of their SJW threads. It's likely buried though  since this was like last week I believe. Heh.

 

\Poor Sera. Being picked on.

[BruceVC]

Well, that kind of confirms some of my preconceptions. Women don't really get harassed more, but in different ways that are seen as more violating. Men seem to be harassed for their opinions, actions, etc. when women can often be harassed for being women and a lot of their harassment takes form in a sexual manner.

 

EDIT: You ninja'd me Bruce. Yes, I do condemn harassment of women (and I like to think everyone here does, even if they don't agree on how much it happens and how severe it is compared to harassment of men) although that also somewhat falls under condemning harassment in general (even though to me personally it's a bigger deal because I am much more in contact with harassment of women than I am with harassment of men).

 

So going back to the video then would you agree its not utter nonsense because the video discusses how women are harassed on the Internet?

[Blarghagh]

Oh, I haven't watched the video at this time. I literally just got out of bed. I was simply responding to what was being said about whether men or women get harassed more.

[BruceVC]

 I don't take kindly to being ordered to provide [proof since I have nothing to prove espiciaily to a SJW.

 

\Whether you believe me or not doesn't change the fact that SJWs bashed BIO for being sexist.

 

I'll give you a hint. I saw the link on the Codex to a twitter post.  Dig into one of their SJW threads. It's likely buried though  since this was like last week I believe. Heh.

 

\Poor Sera. Being picked on.

 

You right, you don't have to prove anything. But I thought we were trying to have a reasonable, constructive  and mature debate about this topic

 

So if you make a point doesn't it make sense you substantiate it with a link if someone asks you for further information so that they can review it?

Edited December 3, 2014 by BruceVC

[Blarghagh]

While I don't have any links either, I can confirm that I was told about this by sources other than Volo so at the very least it's not a figment of his imagination. Take from that what you will.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

While I don't have any links either, I can confirm that I was told about this by sources other than Volo so at the very least it's not a figment of his imagination. Take from that what you will.

It was the SJW Vivian James Twitter Account angry about transphobia in DAI. Apparently enslaving nations through necromancy is fine, but the PC being transphobic isn't.

 

Well, that kind of confirms some of my preconceptions. Women don't really get harassed more, but in different ways that are seen as more violating. Men seem to be harassed for their opinions, actions, etc. when women can often be harassed for being women and a lot of their harassment takes form in a sexual manner.

 

EDIT: You ninja'd me Bruce. Yes, I do condemn harassment of women (and I like to think everyone here does, even if they don't agree on how much it happens and how severe it is compared to harassment of men) although that also somewhat falls under condemning harassment in general (even though to me personally it's a bigger deal because I am much more in contact with harassment of women than I am with harassment of men). But I have to add to this that I haven't been a stranger to harassment myself, as I hinted at before I have been stalked myself and I'm sure a lot of others here have been as well.

 

I think a lot of the problems in the conversation is that men feel alienated because these things are considered "women's issues" when they're really not exclusively women's issues. It's all fine and dandy to go "women are harassed more and we need to condemn it", but I think a lot of men get rubbed the wrong way because as the data shown a few posts up demonstrates, men get harassed about as much too and they feel like their experience is getting glossed over in favour of women. I think a lot of the anti-feminist slant of... pretty much the majority of the internet recently can be attributed to that.

 

EDIT EDIT: Added some more because I felt it merited more discussion.

I don't think any harassment is acceptable and I think trying to compartmentalize it by type and target is not a good way to solve the issue as a whole, let alone address it. IMO, we should be targeting individuals who take part in harassment, not demanding entire genders take responsibility for the actions of some anon they have no power over and have likely never met.

 

With that, I should really try to get some sleep. Try not to have the pro-corruption side harass a woman in the next 6 hours please.

Edited December 3, 2014 by KaineParker

[BruceVC]

While I don't have any links either, I can confirm that I was told about this by sources other than Volo so at the very least it's not a figment of his imagination. Take from that what you will.

 

Sure, and I can believe that really happened. I would condemn that because I am firmly of the opinion that Bioware has done more for inclusivity than any other software company. Just the fact they have tackled same-sex relationships is a big step in the  realm of  truly trying to appeal to the whole fanbase in there games

[Volourn]

"So if you make a point doesn't it make sense you substantiate it with a link if someone asks you for further information so that they can review it?"

 

Nope. This is a thread about sexism. I pointed out that SJWs/feminists attacked BIO for sexist. I know this to be fact so I don't need proof. Nor do I need to prove this to you or anybody else. My goal isn't to change your mind just  report the facts. 

 

I mean youa re the guy who  believes men have everything perfect. That white males are all billionaires who have never had a rotten day in their lives.  I can't take your opinion seriously when you think women have it worse when it's proven that men are used as cheap fodder in war, are the biggest rape victims in rape, or punished more severely for the same crimes,  are disadvantaged/disenfranchise when it comes to child custody, are victims of spousla abuse just as much as women... but, somehow  men get it easy.

 

You also  claim you believe in equality but you continue to view women as mere children who are weak and pathetic and need to be treated like eternal victims instead of strong, independent grown adults like I do.

 

That's why equalism > feminism

[BruceVC]

 

I think a lot of the problems in the conversation is that men feel alienated because these things are considered "women's issues" when they're really not exclusively women's issues. It's all fine and dandy to go "women are harassed more and we need to condemn it", but I think a lot of men get rubbed the wrong way because as the data shown a few posts up demonstrates, men get harassed about as much too and they feel like their experience is getting glossed over in favour of women. I think a lot of the anti-feminist slant of... pretty much the majority of the internet recently can be attributed to that.

 

EDIT EDIT: Added some more because I felt it merited more discussion.

 

This is a very relevant point, maybe the lack of apparent concern is that men feel they are harassed equally the same as women but this seems to be ignored?

 

I can only speak from my experience and others I know but if you look at that video and the 25 points I have never ever been subjected any of those points of harassment. Also I have never been criticised for being a man, but I have criticised for being a SJW

[Blarghagh]

I have been both, ironically. SJW doesn't bother me that much since it's such a blanket term that it's next to meaningless. You can literally post "racism is bad" and some elements will label you an SJW.

 

As for being criticized for being a man... It's one of the reasons that, though I agree with the stated goals of feminism (gender equality etc.) but I would never identify with the current online crop of feminists. One memorable moment was when I responded to a harassment victim on Tumblr doing nothing but asking "is there any way I can help", I was told by some feminists circling the conversation (but at the same time doing absolutely nothing in terms of actual help other than spouting cliché one-liners) in no uncertain terms that the only thing I could do to help as a male scum was to crawl off and die. There's a very real reason why people have turned off from feminism.

 

That's nothing compared to what other women get from feminists if they don't agree, though. The amount of times my girlfriend has been harassed simply because she wants to have children some day rather than be a career woman is staggering. Apparently, it makes her a gender traitor who conforms to gender roles to please men.

Edited December 3, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Meshugger]

Brad answers to his harassers that their behaviour is not acceptable:

 

http://www.littletinyfrogs.com/article/459705/Have_people_lost_their_collective_minds

 

//edit: nvm, already posted.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Meshugger

[TrashMan]

Women on the internet on average get more attention, but that is not more harassement.

 

The whole notion that the gaming industry and internet are exceptionally hostile to women is a big, fat lie. A media scare to generate views/clicks.

Ya know...like the WMD's in Iraq. The bird Flu. The swine flu. The "games causing mass shootings" scare.

The mass media have been broken and useless for a long time.

[BruceVC]

I have been both, ironically. SJW doesn't bother me that much since it's such a blanket term that it's next to meaningless. You can literally post "racism is bad" and some elements will label you an SJW.

 

As for being criticized for being a man... It's one of the reasons that, though I agree with the stated goals of feminism (gender equality etc.) but I would never identify with the current online crop of feminists. One memorable moment was when I responded to a harassment victim on Tumblr doing nothing but asking "is there any way I can help", I was told by some feminists circling the conversation (but at the same time doing absolutely nothing in terms of actual help other than spouting cliché one-liners) in no uncertain terms that the only thing I could do to help as a male scum was to crawl off and die. There's a very real reason why people have turned off from feminism.

 

That's nothing compared to what other women get from feminists if they don't agree, though. The amount of times my girlfriend has been harassed simply because she wants to have children some day rather than be a career woman is staggering. Apparently, it makes her a gender traitor who conforms to gender roles to please men.

 

I have been both, ironically. SJW doesn't bother me that much since it's such a blanket term that it's next to meaningless. You can literally post "racism is bad" and some elements will label you an SJW.

 

As for being criticized for being a man... It's one of the reasons that, though I agree with the stated goals of feminism (gender equality etc.) but I would never identify with the current online crop of feminists. One memorable moment was when I responded to a harassment victim on Tumblr doing nothing but asking "is there any way I can help", I was told by some feminists circling the conversation (but at the same time doing absolutely nothing in terms of actual help other than spouting cliché one-liners) in no uncertain terms that the only thing I could do to help as a male scum was to crawl off and die. There's a very real reason why people have turned off from feminism.

 

That's nothing compared to what other women get from feminists if they don't agree, though. The amount of times my girlfriend has been harassed simply because she wants to have children some day rather than be a career woman is staggering. Apparently, it makes her a gender traitor who conforms to gender roles to please men.

 

Wowzers,  that abuse you received  from  some feminists for trying to help is completely unacceptable

 

But I'm glad you realize that doesn't represent the broader movement or what people who believe in gender equality aspire to achieve

[Darkpriest]

 

http://gamergate.me/2014/12/struggle-of-the-pen/

 

Muslim guy talks about being compared to ISIS because he has a problem with the state of gaming journalism.

 

 

 

Can you explain to me why this video is utter nonsense ?

Because the entire thing is [citation needed].

 

That's what I thought, you don't really have a reason to dismiss it. Its just a knee-jerk reaction because it raises the reality of harassment of women on the Internet and it appears that this view is not something that certain  people who support GG want to really accept or acknowledge...or even discuss

 

Do you think this then undermines the objectives of  GG somehow? Is it not possible to support GG but also support a video like this and the message it is trying to convey ?

If you don't see the lack of proof for said statements as "a reason to dismiss it", I honestly don't know what to say. If you want to convince me that harassment of women is exponentially more common than harrasment in general, you're going to have to show some hard evidence, not anecdotal musings.

 

 

Hold on a second, do you really believe that the harassment of women on the Internet is not much worse than the harassment of men?

 

 

Yes, because if I call a man a retard, that's rugged criticism, if I call a woman a retard, it's harassment... If I call a man a c-sucking D, it's a form of criticism, if I call a woman a C-sucking C..t, its harassment...

 

double standards for same abusive language create a perception where women feel more harassed... well that, plus it's trendy to be harassed or an object to sexual assault... big words, nice stories, a lot of sympathy from strangers... for nothing more than simple attention W (both male and female)

[Blarghagh]

 

I have been both, ironically. SJW doesn't bother me that much since it's such a blanket term that it's next to meaningless. You can literally post "racism is bad" and some elements will label you an SJW.

 

As for being criticized for being a man... It's one of the reasons that, though I agree with the stated goals of feminism (gender equality etc.) but I would never identify with the current online crop of feminists. One memorable moment was when I responded to a harassment victim on Tumblr doing nothing but asking "is there any way I can help", I was told by some feminists circling the conversation (but at the same time doing absolutely nothing in terms of actual help other than spouting cliché one-liners) in no uncertain terms that the only thing I could do to help as a male scum was to crawl off and die. There's a very real reason why people have turned off from feminism.

 

That's nothing compared to what other women get from feminists if they don't agree, though. The amount of times my girlfriend has been harassed simply because she wants to have children some day rather than be a career woman is staggering. Apparently, it makes her a gender traitor who conforms to gender roles to please men.

 

I have been both, ironically. SJW doesn't bother me that much since it's such a blanket term that it's next to meaningless. You can literally post "racism is bad" and some elements will label you an SJW.

 

As for being criticized for being a man... It's one of the reasons that, though I agree with the stated goals of feminism (gender equality etc.) but I would never identify with the current online crop of feminists. One memorable moment was when I responded to a harassment victim on Tumblr doing nothing but asking "is there any way I can help", I was told by some feminists circling the conversation (but at the same time doing absolutely nothing in terms of actual help other than spouting cliché one-liners) in no uncertain terms that the only thing I could do to help as a male scum was to crawl off and die. There's a very real reason why people have turned off from feminism.

 

That's nothing compared to what other women get from feminists if they don't agree, though. The amount of times my girlfriend has been harassed simply because she wants to have children some day rather than be a career woman is staggering. Apparently, it makes her a gender traitor who conforms to gender roles to please men.

 

Wowzers,  that abuse you received  from  some feminists for trying to help is completely unacceptable

 

But I'm glad you realize that doesn't represent the broader movement or what people who believe in gender equality aspire to achieve

 

 

You might recall Emma Watson's speech? It highlights a couple of things. First off, the response to it was overwhelmingly positive but the campaign it was for got a lot of negative reactions because of the wording of the title. He For She. This title implied that only men can do anything for women but also that the problems being discussed were female issues only. It's very unfair and it very clearly demonstrates how alienated a lot of men have become to the world seeing "gender equality" as solely a women's issue. A lot of men feel alienated the women's issues are treated as more important than men's issues. I've seen a thousand charity drives for breast cancer research, I've seen about two for testicular or prostate cancer. Things like these need to be acknowledged if the drive for gender equality is going to gain any ground again for men, especially for men who already felt alienated from society (such as a lot of tech enthousiasts like gamers are). Because why would they help if it only means their own problems are going to get marginalised? That they have to accept their "privelege" as men even if their lives may be consistently worse than most women's lives?

 

Thankfully, the speech itself, however, acknowledges this and is better for it. For example, this section:

 

Men, I would like to take this opportunity to extend your formal invitation. Gender equality is your issue, too. Because to date, I’ve seen my father’s role as a parent being valued less by society, despite my need of his presence as a child, as much as my mother’s. I’ve seen young men suffering from mental illness, unable to ask for help for fear it would make them less of a man. In fact, in the UK, suicide is the biggest killer of men between 20 to 49, eclipsing road accidents, cancer and coronary heart disease. I’ve seen men made fragile and insecure by a distorted sense of what constitutes male success. Men don’t have the benefits of equality, either.

 

I think this is a good way to go about it. The problem is, when someone like Brianna Wu rants about mansplaining when someone just gives her statistical facts or people harass a grown man to tears because their biggest problem in gender equality is a T-shirt someone is wearing? That undoes all the good work of people like Emma. At this point, feminism has become its own worst enemy. Though the average garden variety feminist believes in gender equality, feminism and especially it's online compartment hosts an extremely toxic community of harassers and misandrists. Essentially, what feminism needs is their own #GamerGate, people that will go out of their way to say "hell no, we don't believe in #killallmen, it's actually about ethics and gender equality".

[Meshugger]

TrueNeutral says that all needs to be said on the matter.

 

Now for some more real idiocy, Target Australia pulls GTA V from the shelves after customer concern: https://drive.google.com/viewerng/viewer?url=http://www.target.com.au/medias/marketing/corporate/PDF/media-release/GTA-Media-Release-v2.pdf&embedded=true

 

Why won't someone think about the virtual women? The virtual men? well **** them anyway.

 

And in other news, Kickstarter is ok with their employees being racists against whites: http://www.reddit.com/r/kickstarter/comments/2ny7vk/news_kickstarter_community_manager_openly_making/

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This ride will not end until a huuuuge scandal of Shakespearian proportions or if they manage to try to shut down the 1st amendment of the US.

[Malcador]

Weird to pull GTA 5 for that, game seems to have a violence on everyone approach rather than being about brutalizing women. I guess the scene where one woman gets killed by a jet engine was the trigger?

[licketysplit]

I love it when these idiots oust themselves. It's doing everyone a favor.

[TrashMan]

[Amentep]

I can only speak from my experience and others I know but if you look at that video and the 25 points I have never ever been subjected any of those points of harassment. Also I have never been criticised for being a man, but I have criticised for being a SJW

Several of the 25 points are actually the same point (I think there's at least three that have to do with not being seen as a gamer due to gender). And point 25 is at least inauthentic because unless they disclose the gender of the "writer" of the list, how would you know what that gender was in order to take it more/less seriously due to gender bias?

 

That said, I can actually speak to some of them (22 in particular). Back when people thought I was a woman I did get hit on, did get asked about sexual things and was sent some **** shots by some nameless fellows*. So it does happen.

 

*I'm assuming they were fellows - due to the nature of the internet they could have actually been women sending **** pictures they had from other men to a man they thought was a woman, which kind of speaks to the difficulty of gender identity based reasoning in dealing with anonymous persons on the internet since you only have the word of the person you're talking to** about who they actually are.

 

**Which means that despite the picture claiming to be "me" from the BIS days and my claims in this post that I'm not a woman, there's only two people on this board who've met me in real life and who have any ability to actually say that I am or am not what I represent on the internet.*** This also speaks to one of the inherent problems with the "real name" policies of some places, where I've registered under a real name, just not my real name. Because going back to the point of being able to post your real information online with no fear because you're a dude is wrong.

 

***Assuming they remember me at all, of course, which is unlikely. I'm not terribly memorable IRL.

[BruceVC]

 

I can only speak from my experience and others I know but if you look at that video and the 25 points I have never ever been subjected any of those points of harassment. Also I have never been criticised for being a man, but I have criticised for being a SJW

Several of the 25 points are actually the same point (I think there's at least three that have to do with not being seen as a gamer due to gender). And point 25 is at least inauthentic because unless they disclose the gender of the "writer" of the list, how would you know what that gender was in order to take it more/less seriously due to gender bias?

 

That said, I can actually speak to some of them (22 in particular). Back when people thought I was a woman I did get hit on, did get asked about sexual things and was sent some **** shots by some nameless fellows*. So it does happen.

 

*I'm assuming they were fellows - due to the nature of the internet they could have actually been women sending **** pictures they had from other men to a man they thought was a woman, which kind of speaks to the difficulty of gender identity based reasoning in dealing with anonymous persons on the internet since you only have the word of the person you're talking to** about who they actually are.

 

**Which means that despite the picture claiming to be "me" from the BIS days and my claims in this post that I'm not a woman, there's only two people on this board who've met me in real life and who have any ability to actually say that I am or am not what I represent on the internet.*** This also speaks to one of the inherent problems with the "real name" policies of some places, where I've registered under a real name, just not my real name. Because going back to the point of being able to post your real information online with no fear because you're a dude is wrong.

 

***Assuming they remember me at all, of course, which is unlikely. I'm not terribly memorable IRL.

 

Interesting post, so you have been harassed when people thought you were a women. So I assume you also agree that video isn't complete nonsense?