Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Volourn]

McIntosh is moran. He hates women. He loves power. Doesn't he realize that the majority of people oppose him and his ilk? I seriously doubt he wants a true democracy. His bigotry would be thrown in the trash. And, he is supposed to be a SJW Savior. LMAO

[BruceVC]

 

Yikes, things got a bit heated back there.  Let's keep it civil folks.  For all my disagreements with Bruce, and we very much disagree a lot, he's at least reasonable enough to listen to opposing arguments and engage in debate, even if that debate sometimes feels like banging my head against a brick wall (Bruce may well feel the same way about some of us), something many of the ultra extreme far-left-wingers won't even entertain.  Now, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I, myself, have in the past (and may in the future) had moments where I've let emotions get the best of me and reacted/replied in a more aggressive and insulting manner than I should have.  For that, I apologize, to anyone I've offended.  Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that we (again, myself very much included) could maybe refrain from making character attacks on forum members.  Those really aren't going to help anything or anyone.

 

Thanks for this. It's why I recused myself from arguing with him about this matter, because I felt my frustration get the better of me. I recall that several times I've asked people to be more civil to Bruce. At the same time...

 

This dislike of women can be overt or covert. What you see mostly nowadays is the covert display of misogyny, like GG where real misogynists mask there bigotry around other issues. So this gives them the opportunity to be sexist but pretend they not as they say they are doing it other reasons like " integrity in the gaming industry "

 

If this is still your view of #GamerGate after all this time, it lends credence to accusations that you're just yes-manning what other "SJW" oriented people have said since not a single actual, demonstrable fact supports this claim and many speak against it. #GamerGate is very quickly becoming the best thing for empowering and defending talented female developers that this industry has ever seen.

 

Are you aware that at this time the vast majority of #GamerGate figureheads are women? Many women, like Georgina Young from TechRaptr and game developer Jennifer Dawe. I mean, literally we have, what, just TotalBiscuit as male representation at this point? Other than random Twitter spam. #GamerGate actively encourages its female (and minority) voices to come and speak. The few things that have remained constant in #GamerGate is that we are against harassment, biased and nepotist gaming media and support women in gaming.

 

Are you aware that the opposition of #GamerGate has been actively boycotting female developers (Jennifer Dawe) and bullying women who have the audacity to, oh, just ask questions off the internet (Claire Schumann)? That almost all of the oppositions critcism falls towards games with female characters designed by women (Rhianna Pratchett who wrote the latest Tomb Raider, Mari Shimazaki who designed the character of Bayonetta) to be empowering? Have you seen the BroPill interviews with anonymous female developers who are scared to reveal their names because if they reveal they are pro-GamerGate, the opposition will harass them and their companies until they quit?

 

If there was misogyny in #GamerGate in the first place (and I still question that there ever was as every single source of this claim has had a vested interest in keeping the status quo regarding games media) it's long been chased off and has joined the opposition. Are a lot of people in #GamerGate disagreeing with third wave, intersectional feminists? Yes. Does that equal misogyny? I'll let TotalBiscuit answer that for me.

 

 

Either #GamerGate is the least effective hate movement ever conceived, or it's very devious in letting the opposition commit its misogyny for it.

 

 

I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. It does appear that GG is making strides in its attempts to be seen as a movement that doesn't discriminate against minorities in the gaming industry

 

But if the opinions of GG are reflected in these forums and views then there is still loads of work to do

 

I'll  give you an example, this video was a posted in this thread about a week ago

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47-FMmMLy0

 

This video didn't even attack GG but raised valid issues that still exist in the industry and discussed something that we should all recognise

 

But the majority of people in this thread initially dismissed it immediately saying it was nonsense and some people expressed " outrage"

 

This was despite the fact video clearly stated that men are also the victims of harassment. There were of course a few people like yourself, Namutree and Amentep who did support the concept of the video

 

So now we go back to the question " do GG and its members really  want to engage in real debate around this issue "

 

All I seem to see is contempt from the majority of people on this thread around any point that seems to be different to theirs. So I would encourage people to practice what they preach and try to more  open minded about a different part of the narrative around harassment in the gaming industry. This video and the reaction to it  is a good example of this contempt

 

 

So I would say work still  needs to be done on both sides to get people to be accepting of other opinions and less dismissive

[Volourn]

I'm not open minded when it comes to nazis which is what SJWs and feminists are. I will not apologize for that. i also am not open minded when I am threatened with murdered and accused of being a sexist racist monster.

\

I also notice you yet again flatly ignore an insane diatribe by a fellow SJW. I'm not surprised. Since you want to murder me and our fellow gamers even though you are  a gamer yourself. the logic does not make sense.

 

 

:)

Edited December 7, 2014 by Volourn

[BruceVC]

I'm not open minded when it comes to nazis which is what SJWs and feminists are. I will not apologize for that. i also am not open minded when I am threatened with murdered and accused of being a sexist racist monster.

\

I also notice you yet again flatly ignore an insane diatribe by a fellow SJW. I'm not surprised. Since you want to murder me and our fellow gamers even though you are  a gamer yourself. the logic does not make sense.

 

 

:)

 

I know Volo doesn't represent your standard supporter of GG ( well I hope he doesn't ) but his comment demonstrates the issue I raised earlier. There is no interest or recognition in any opinion unless it supports his view

 

Completely unhelpful when we talk about the importance of constructive debate

 

Also what SJW diatribe are you talking about, links ?

[Volourn]

"I know Volo doesn't represent your standard supporter of GG ( well I hope he doesn't ) but his comment demonstrates the issue I raised earlier. There is no interest or recognition in any opinion unless it supports his view

 

Completely unhelpful when we talk about the importance of constructive debate

 

Also what SJW diatribe are you talking about, links ?"

\

 

L0L


:)

[pseudonymous]

 

Well that's an easy one to answer, I am a SJW and I definitely care about how women are treated

 

 

Sorry, but you need hard evidence that SJWs care about how women are treated.  Like time slips from your local battered women's shelter, receipts of charitable donations to said shelter, photos of SJWs in Syria killing members of ISIS and freeing the women they've enslaved, etc.  Your word that SJWs care about the treatment of women really is not good enough.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

Yikes, things got a bit heated back there.  Let's keep it civil folks.  For all my disagreements with Bruce, and we very much disagree a lot, he's at least reasonable enough to listen to opposing arguments and engage in debate, even if that debate sometimes feels like banging my head against a brick wall (Bruce may well feel the same way about some of us), something many of the ultra extreme far-left-wingers won't even entertain.  Now, I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that I, myself, have in the past (and may in the future) had moments where I've let emotions get the best of me and reacted/replied in a more aggressive and insulting manner than I should have.  For that, I apologize, to anyone I've offended.  Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that we (again, myself very much included) could maybe refrain from making character attacks on forum members.  Those really aren't going to help anything or anyone.

Thanks for this. It's why I recused myself from arguing with him about this matter, because I felt my frustration get the better of me. I recall that several times I've asked people to be more civil to Bruce. At the same time...

 

This dislike of women can be overt or covert. What you see mostly nowadays is the covert display of misogyny, like GG where real misogynists mask there bigotry around other issues. So this gives them the opportunity to be sexist but pretend they not as they say they are doing it other reasons like " integrity in the gaming industry "

If this is still your view of #GamerGate after all this time, it lends credence to accusations that you're just yes-manning what other "SJW" oriented people have said since not a single actual, demonstrable fact supports this claim and many speak against it. #GamerGate is very quickly becoming the best thing for empowering and defending talented female developers that this industry has ever seen.

 

Are you aware that at this time the vast majority of #GamerGate figureheads are women? Many women, like Georgina Young from TechRaptr and game developer Jennifer Dawe. I mean, literally we have, what, just TotalBiscuit as male representation at this point? Other than random Twitter spam. #GamerGate actively encourages its female (and minority) voices to come and speak. The few things that have remained constant in #GamerGate is that we are against harassment, biased and nepotist gaming media and support women in gaming.

 

Are you aware that the opposition of #GamerGate has been actively boycotting female developers (Jennifer Dawe) and bullying women who have the audacity to, oh, just ask questions off the internet (Claire Schumann)? That almost all of the oppositions critcism falls towards games with female characters designed by women (Rhianna Pratchett who wrote the latest Tomb Raider, Mari Shimazaki who designed the character of Bayonetta) to be empowering? Have you seen the BroPill interviews with anonymous female developers who are scared to reveal their names because if they reveal they are pro-GamerGate, the opposition will harass them and their companies until they quit?

 

If there was misogyny in #GamerGate in the first place (and I still question that there ever was as every single source of this claim has had a vested interest in keeping the status quo regarding games media) it's long been chased off and has joined the opposition. Are a lot of people in #GamerGate disagreeing with third wave, intersectional feminists? Yes. Does that equal misogyny? I'll let TotalBiscuit answer that for me.

 

 

Either #GamerGate is the least effective hate movement ever conceived, or it's very devious in letting the opposition commit its misogyny for it.

I appreciate the effort you put into your posts. It does appear that GG is making strides in its attempts to be seen as a movement that doesn't discriminate against minorities in the gaming industry

 

But if the opinions of GG are reflected in these forums and views then there is still loads of work to do

 

I'll  give you an example, this video was a posted in this thread about a week ago

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E47-FMmMLy0

 

This video didn't even attack GG but raised valid issues that still exist in the industry and discussed something that we should all recognise

 

But the majority of people in this thread initially dismissed it immediately saying it was nonsense and some people expressed " outrage"

 

This was despite the fact video clearly stated that men are also the victims of harassment. There were of course a few people like yourself, Namutree and Amentep who did support the concept of the video

 

So now we go back to the question " do GG and its members really  want to engage in real debate around this issue "

 

All I seem to see is contempt from the majority of people on this thread around any point that seems to be different to theirs. So I would encourage people to practice what they preach and try to more  open minded about a different part of the narrative around harassment in the gaming industry. This video and the reaction to it  is a good example of this contempt

 

 

So I would say work still  needs to be done on both sides to get people to be accepting of other opinions and less dismissive

I went back and checked, tallying all the responses. While Malc and Longknife were snarky about it, they did not pass value judgement on the video (and in fact Malc didn't say enough about it to discern an opinion). Negative value judgement was given by KaineParker, Volourn and Darkpriest. 3 people, whereas like you claim Namuntree, Amentep and myself reacted otherwise and then there is of course, yourself. Objective fact makes it that we, not they, were the majority. I mean absolutely no offense with this since I've seen this used as a way to ridicule people, but do you know what confirmation bias is? I suppose you could make the case that Longknife's comments (pointing out that most of the credited people in the video come from San Francisco) could be construed as negative in the context of how much San Francisco has been ridiculed here, but even then it would at the most be a tie. Even in this thread, where most people who oppose #GamerGate on this board tend to not come because the pro-#GamerGate people are very... ahem, passionate about it, the viewpoint you were saying is a clear majority is clearly not.

 

I agree that some people here don't seem to have an interest in debate, or at least debate with you*. Especially Volo can get on my nerves since he tends to spout one liners and not give a lot of interesting arguments or sources, meaning he's essentially saying the same things over and over again: yes we get it man, SJWs are evil nazis! I also feel that views in this thread have gotten a little more kneejerk and entrenched, because hell, even Anita Sarkeesian makes some good points sometimes. I try to judge what people say based on the merit of what they're saying rather than the person saying it (to a point, anyway). Everything that could be construed as anti-GG tends to get a violent reaction, and since most of the "attacks" on GG tend to be accusations of "fat white neckbeard males that need to check their privelege", a video demonstrating that privelege would very much be subject to that reaction. I think if the video had been posted outside of the current climate that it would have had a much more positive response. Context changes things.

 

To me, it shows to me that feminist input on the #GamerGate controversy (along with several outlying controversies such as the UVA Rape Hoax and #ShirtGate) have really soured the public, or at least the internet public, on modern day feminism and it's going to be a while before these issues will be able to be discussed without at least a couple of people chiming in to accuse those discussing it of being evil nazi SJWs. It's sad, but I'm pretty sure I called this one several threads back - the militant, authoritarian approach of social justice issues is backfiring and it's going to make the job a lot harder for people like us who actually do care (yes, for the record, I don't believe for one second the claim that you're just doing it to hold on to your "good guy card" or such nonsense) about social issues.

 

*Regarding debate with you: Again, no offense, but your early contributions to these threads made me pull out my hair in frustration and as Keyrock points out, it can feel like banging your head against the wall. I tend to be relatively patient on message boards - a side effect of writing giant walls of text on message boards since I was 12 - but I've lost my patience with you several times, sometimes in regards to points that I actually agree with you on. Also, I've pointed this out before, but there's a definite trend here that people are more vehemently against something if you post it than if, say, Hurlshot posts the same thing. (Not the case with this video however.) I don't approve of it, but there's a definite bias against you here and some of that has to do with your posting and debating styles.

 

 

Well that's an easy one to answer, I am a SJW and I definitely care about how women are treated

 

Sorry, but you need hard evidence that SJWs care about how women are treated.  Like time slips from your local battered women's shelter, receipts of charitable donations to said shelter, photos of SJWs in Syria killing members of ISIS and freeing the women they've enslaved, etc.  Your word that SJWs care about the treatment of women really is not good enough.

Wow, the snark. There's a nugget of truth in there, though. Talking about things on the internet doesn't really help much. Raising awareness can only go so far. I have yet to see people like Sarkeesian and McIntosh actually help women in any tangible form. In fact, it looks like they've only made it worse by using their authoritative, militant way to bias people against feminism. At least #GamerGate has funded The Fine Young Capitalists (from Wikipedia: a self-described radical feminist^[1] group set up to organize production initiatives for underrepresented labor in the media industry) women game jam, funded a dozen charities from anti-Bullying to the WWF to charities making gaming input devices for the disabled and even created their own suicide prevention charity.

 

This is bad because supposedly their motivations are bad? I mean, they've helped more than Feminist Fequency ever has. As someone involved in #GamerGate on the ground level, I don't see "PR moves", I see people who genuinely care. But even if that weren't true, I'll take "weaponized charity" that helps people over militant douchebags who aren't prepared to put their money where their mouth is a million times. Every single #GamerGater who donated to a charity drive is worth a thousand McIntoshes.

 

EDIT: Actually, I've just found out AbleGamers refused to take charity money from a #GamerGate charity drive because of a massive e-mailing campaign from #GamerGate opponents. Great job for those guys. They now have a track record of harassment, sexism, supporting corruption and halting charity. How on earth is #GamerGate the bad guy in this? The world is topsy-turvy.

Edited December 7, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[BruceVC]

 

 

Well that's an easy one to answer, I am a SJW and I definitely care about how women are treated

 

 

Sorry, but you need hard evidence that SJWs care about how women are treated.  Like time slips from your local battered women's shelter, receipts of charitable donations to said shelter, photos of SJWs in Syria killing members of ISIS and freeing the women they've enslaved, etc.  Your word that SJWs care about the treatment of women really is not good enough.

 

 

 

 

So SJW should be in Syria and Iraq fighting ISIS to prove they care about womens rights

 

Once again I am suppose to take these types of comments seriously

[pseudonymous]

So you don't care about women with actual problems?

[Meshugger]

Anti-GG can sleep well tonight, for they have successfully made sure that disabled people will not get any donations.

 

https://twitter.com/ZenithTheOne/status/541526695212507136

[TrashMan]

The insanity train never stops.

 

 

B.t.w. - Longknife, can you confirm if that bit on the video is yours?

[TrashMan]

To be fair, the anti-GamerGate did try ONE charity..with a 100$ goal... and in 2 weeks they only reached 30$.

 

And then GG donated the other 70 and there was much laughing at jsut homew incompetent, impotent and insignificant they really are.

 

As someone said, even with the GG autoblockers the antis' are complaining about pro-GGers. Meanwhile all it takes is to block 50 names and anti-GG is silenced.

The SJW don't even realize how hated and marginal they have become. They alienated everyone with their cult-like obsessive behavior.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

 

Well that's an easy one to answer, I am a SJW and I definitely care about how women are treated

 

 

Sorry, but you need hard evidence that SJWs care about how women are treated.  Like time slips from your local battered women's shelter, receipts of charitable donations to said shelter, photos of SJWs in Syria killing members of ISIS and freeing the women they've enslaved, etc.  Your word that SJWs care about the treatment of women really is not good enough.

 

 

 

 

So SJW should be in Syria and Iraq fighting ISIS to prove they care about womens rights

 

Once again I am suppose to take these types of comments seriously

 

 

No, you don't have to. It's total snark. Also, it's the internet. You have complete control over what you take seriously. I have a follow-up question though. What have you done to help social justice issues lately? Do you donate to charities? If you reveal this, you may get a more favourable view other than "you're all talk", which is what Pseudo's post here boils down to.

 

If you're uncomfortable discussing this information, I'll start: I donated 5€ to Warchild just yesterday (I wanted to do more, but I'm flat broke this month due to moving and getting a new car), I donated 20€ to Humble Bundle last month (to be fair, I get games in return for that) and the month before bought a 24€ shirt from a Markiplier 24 Hour Livestreaming Charity drive, although I can't recall what the charity was since I've donated to a lot of them. I think it was a children's hospital. It's not much, but I don't have much to give at the moment.

 

Man, the quoting system is going crazy today...

Edited December 7, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Meshugger]

What's this UVA rape hoax and why does it tie to Gamergate, TrueNeutral?

[Blarghagh]

It doesn't tie into #GamerGate but neither does #ShirtGate, but it is another thing that demonstrates toxicity of the third wave feminist community. To be fair, reading more about it, it's not entirely clear if it is a hoax, the facts are indetermined. But Rolling Stone covered an account of fraternity gang rape at UVA, presenting it as fact, and other reporters looking into it found serious discrepancies in the account and simply expressed doubts. They were immediately jumped upon, accused of being perpetrators of rape culture, or rape deniers (used in a similar manner as holocaust deniers) and their employers were contacted with said accusations en masse, demanding these reporters be fired. Then Rolling Stone retracted the story and apologized to its readers, and then the online feminists got really nasty.

 

EDIT: Able Gamers charity replacement found. The charity drive will now go towards Special Effect, a similar charity for the disabled. If you have the means, please consider donating.

Edited December 7, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[kirottu]

Anti-GG can sleep well tonight, for they have successfully made sure that disabled people will not get any donations.

 

https://twitter.com/ZenithTheOne/status/541526695212507136

 

Absolutely deplorable. I honestly have no words. Taking money from disabled people... Jesus ****ing Christ.

[Longknife]

Also can I just say it feels weird as **** to be a part of the group that is the topic and/or chesspiece involved in the latest charity dispute or social justice cause?

 

It's like holy ****, **** off and let me/us say what I/we want.

 

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Well that's an easy one to answer, I am a SJW and I definitely care about how women are treated

 

 

Sorry, but you need hard evidence that SJWs care about how women are treated.  Like time slips from your local battered women's shelter, receipts of charitable donations to said shelter, photos of SJWs in Syria killing members of ISIS and freeing the women they've enslaved, etc.  Your word that SJWs care about the treatment of women really is not good enough.

 

 

 

 

So SJW should be in Syria and Iraq fighting ISIS to prove they care about womens rights

 

Once again I am suppose to take these types of comments seriously

 

 

No, you don't have to. It's total snark. Also, it's the internet. You have complete control over what you take seriously. I have a follow-up question though. What have you done to help social justice issues lately? Do you donate to charities? If you reveal this, you may get a more favourable view other than "you're all talk", which is what Pseudo's post here boils down to.

 

If you're uncomfortable discussing this information, I'll start: I donated 5€ to Warchild just yesterday (I wanted to do more, but I'm flat broke this month due to moving and getting a new car), I donated 20€ to Humble Bundle last month (to be fair, I get games in return for that) and the month before bought a 24€ shirt from a Markiplier 24 Hour Livestreaming Charity drive, although I can't recall what the charity was since I've donated to a lot of them. I think it was a children's hospital. It's not much, but I don't have much to give at the moment.

 

Man, the quoting system is going crazy today...

 

 

I don't want you guys to take this wrong way but I don't support various SJ causes because I want people on this forum to either accept me as sincere or to make my comments more credible. Its irrelevant to me if people like Pseudo believe me or not. That's not why I say I am " SJW ", I do it because I believe its the right thing to do because we are living in a time  where despite all our advancements there are many cases of discrimination and bigotry that exist in various forms. And if we just keep quiet we don't help the problem

 

The whole sexism in the gaming industry is just part of this whole campaign and its relatively a small part. I am not uncomfortable at all discussing what I do to assist various SJ causes but it seems almost like hubris to tell people on a forum, who ultimately are just names...its not like we really know each other, all my endeavors. As you pointed out there is an automatic prejudice towards some of my comments from some people  so its not like people like Volo are going to say " wow BruceVC spends time in a shelter for battered women..that's so inspirational. I'm going to do the same "  

 

And the people that do support me don't really need to ask me proof of my commitment to SJ causes

 

But since I do like you and you always go to great lengths to articulate your point I will gladly answer. I donate to various children's orphanages in South Africa, these children are all orphans because there parents are dead from AIDS. We have lots of them in South Africa. I attend regular meetings for  a rape support group because my ex-girlfriend was raped 4 years ago and I have never forgotten the utter helplessness of not being able to say or do anything at the time to comfort her. I also am very active on a prominent radio station in South Africa where various SJ issues get raised and discussed. This helps to inform people that things like being gay is okay and that as a women you are allowed to decide who you should want to marry.

 

There are other things I do but that should suffice

Edited December 7, 2014 by BruceVC

[Longknife]

Also, now taking suggestions on how to use my powers for good/evil. This is my chance to either give an inspirational speech on behalf of the disabled or to go **** with the anti-side and see how willing they are to listen to ridiculous claims I make just cuz I disabled.

[BruceVC]

Also, now taking suggestions on how to use my powers for good/evil. This is my chance to either give an inspirational speech on behalf of the disabled or to go **** with the anti-side and see how willing they are to listen to ridiculous claims I make just cuz I disabled.

 

Definitely use your power to give an inspirational speech, that's a no-brainer

[Nonek]

You're not going to change any of the social justice fascists simple little minds Longknife, they're too enamoured of their own self righteousness and dehumanisation of the diverse opposition, as we see from their affinity with Nazi-ism, their censorship and their attempts to stop female developers entering the industry. Thus i'd say troll them, and troll them hard, see exactly how far they'll go.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Nonek

[Keyrock]

I say take the high road and go with a positive speech.  No need to stoop to SJWs level.

[BruceVC]

You're not going to change any of the social justice fascists simple little minds Longknife, they're too enamoured of their own self righteousness and dehumanisation of the diverse opposition, as we see from their affinity with Nazi-ism, their censorship and their attempts to stop female developers entering the industry. Thus i'd say troll them, and troll them hard, see exactly how far they'll go.

 

Nonek I'm sorry to say this but that's terrible advice.....like really bad

[BruceVC]

 

 

You're not going to change any of the social justice fascists simple little minds Longknife, they're too enamoured of their own self righteousness and dehumanisation of the diverse opposition, as we see from their affinity with Nazi-ism, their censorship and their attempts to stop female developers entering the industry. Thus i'd say troll them, and troll them hard, see exactly how far they'll go.

 

Nonek I'm sorry to say this but that's terrible advice.....like really bad

 

 

And because you are the person that claim its a bad advice it makes it great for most people. 

 

 

  you make me laugh

Edited December 7, 2014 by BruceVC

[Walsingham]

Minor point, but I for one would prefer it if Volo DIDN'T volunteer for a battered women's shelter.

 

Those women have suffered enough.