What You See Is What You Get Loot System

[Osvir]

i agree with Sensuki, because i’d like to have at least a little bit of realism for the inventory system (with weight not being an issue, stashing items, not having ground items inv slots already in PoE working against that)

I like "What You See Is What You Get" but... come on, "realism" argument? When my Aumaua takes down an Orlan, yep, like, do I even have to explain why my Aumaua shouldn't be capable of wearing anything that Orlan wears?

 

I think they should drop crafting materials instead, leather straps, plate pieces, stuff that represents what they are wearing, if you killed an enemy with a Fireball spell, maybe you get some ashes too, or you could create some unique enchanted materials (Magically Touched Leather Straps, that the soul of the spell fused with the guy you obliterated). All of these crafting material would then be used to upgrade your already worn and well-fitted armor. Now, that is realism. "What You See Is What You Re-Purpose"

 

I have an extensive novell I made a loooong time ago explaining why I think it'd be amazing (Added with lots of other stuff in there as well, unrelated to looting). I think only a few read it or cringed reading it though, I dunno, not much response and probably ignored haha *shrug*

 

Armor on armor on armor.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Osvir

[Infinitron]

+1 to WYSIWYG looting.

 

-1000 to random breakage of loot, are you people out of your minds

[Osvir]

@Infinitron: Ad hominem? Motivate, why is it a bad idea with breaking items from combat and why does it not make sense? Why does it make more sense to equip an Orlan sized Leather Armor on an Aumaua post-combat? There are no Enlargement Spells in Pillars of Eternity ;P 

Like, for instance, my dude has a Leather Armor, and if I take down an enemy with a Leather Armor, wouldn't it make sense to re-purpose the enemy's Leather Armor to make my Leather Armor into an Exceptional Leather Armor?

Edited November 29, 2014 by Osvir

[prodigydancer]

crafting + resource gathering

I'm not a fan of either to be honest. It's nothing but busywork padding allowing the developers to say "hey, we have 100 hours of gameplay!" Well it's not meaningful or in any way interesting gameplay.

[Rahkir]

@Infinitron: Ad hominem? Motivate, why is it a bad idea with breaking items from combat and why does it not make sense? Why does it make more sense to equip an Orlan sized Leather Armor on an Aumaua post-combat? There are no Enlargement Spells in Pillars of Eternity ;P 

 

Like, for instance, my dude has a Leather Armor, and if I take down an enemy with a Leather Armor, wouldn't it make sense to re-purpose the enemy's Leather Armor to make my Leather Armor into an Exceptional Leather Armor?

Because there's a fundamental inequality when it comes to games: fun > realism. 

 

The only way I would find a "random breaking" system acceptable is if it only happens to "standard" items. Even then I wouldn't find it exceedingly fun or amusing. If you have a chance to break the really good/unique items it would honestly make me want to meta-game so I know when to reload until I don't break whatever it is. I'm not in favor of mechanics that randomly punish people for no good reason. That is, I find it opaque and obtuse if two people play a fight in exactly the same way and one person gets a ton of broken junk/crafting resources and the other person gets some nice items. Or in the reverse, if the crafting components are more valuable. That seems to belong in games where you grind enemies specifically for loot. e.g. Diablo, Torchlight, etc., etc. Tying break-chances in to specific classes/abilities (fireballs, etc.) seems even less fun.

[Osvir]

 

@Infinitron: Ad hominem? Motivate, why is it a bad idea with breaking items from combat and why does it not make sense? Why does it make more sense to equip an Orlan sized Leather Armor on an Aumaua post-combat? There are no Enlargement Spells in Pillars of Eternity ;P 

 

Like, for instance, my dude has a Leather Armor, and if I take down an enemy with a Leather Armor, wouldn't it make sense to re-purpose the enemy's Leather Armor to make my Leather Armor into an Exceptional Leather Armor?

Because there's a fundamental inequality when it comes to games: fun > realism. 

 

The only way I would find a "random breaking" system acceptable is if it only happens to "standard" items. Even then I wouldn't find it exceedingly fun or amusing. If you have a chance to break the really good/unique items it would honestly make me want to meta-game so I know when to reload until I don't break whatever it is. I'm not in favor of mechanics that randomly punish people for no good reason. That is, I find it opaque and obtuse if two people play a fight in exactly the same way and one person gets a ton of broken junk/crafting resources and the other person gets some nice items. Or in the reverse, if the crafting components are more valuable. That seems to belong in games where you grind enemies specifically for loot. e.g. Diablo, Torchlight, etc., etc. Tying break-chances in to specific classes/abilities (fireballs, etc.) seems even less fun.

But what if it wouldn't be random breaking items? But if an enemy wears Leather Armor, you always find Leather Straps on that enemy? (representable crafting items~ "What You See Is What You Get" with a twist~)

Edited November 29, 2014 by Osvir

[Rahkir]

But what if it wouldn't be random breaking items? But if an enemy wears Leather Armor, you always find Leather Straps on that enemy? (representable crafting items~ "What You See Is What You Get" with a twist~)

That might be a good idea for some game, but it's a pretty drastic step away from the Black Isle tradition. As a personal preference, I like to find whole items on enemies; it's more exciting. Bringing home a pile of scraps and making something of it is more of a chore in a game like this. You also have to take into account getting equipment to start with, assuming you don't start with everything you'll need, a store or bazaar would be the only option to get "base" items without crafting it. Possible, but not as engaging as finding that first suit of plate armor, finally getting rid of your chainmail or whatever you were wearing.

 

On a side note: I really do enjoy item-leveling and item crafting, but only given the right environment. Unless the crafting is a pretty big focus of the system and mechanics, it always feels like a slipshod afterthought, not a meaningful part of the game. Dark Cloud and the Disgaea series are examples of games that I enjoy the "crafting" system in. Tales of Destiny, wherein your weapons are sentient, has a fun system too. But, the trend in those games is that they have very character stories (in a different way than the IE tradition) wherein you have one main character or a small cast of select characters with personalized weapons. It's easier to make meaningful weapon/item development when you have character-specific weapons. Disgaea is another story, and it would be pretty cool to see a fantasy RPG wherein you enter your equipment (item worlds) to fight demons and make your weapons and armors more powerful. In any case, I don't think PoE is that game.

 

Edit- What I mean to say is that even if PoE has crafting, it's not developed enough (from what I've seen) to make it an integral part of the looting system (only getting parts instead of complete items).

Edited November 29, 2014 by Rahkir

[Osvir]

I get what you're saying, but I don't think one is exclusive to the other. Even though the crafting system of PoE is simple, I do believe the crafting system of PoE could support this.

Example, about pacing:
- In the IE games, you might have to fight 10 enemies before meeting the 11th that has the first plate armor. My concept idea is that you'd get all the material after looting those 11 enemies, and then you build your own. Time-wise, no difference. In a non-combat approach, you might instead go to shops to get the gear you need, materials, or pickpocket, or find items in chests. Heck, maybe even go to a Blacksmith and leave an item for a day or two and return to get the upgrade (I.E: "Finding your first Plate Armor").

Similarly, I do not advocate for removal of all "whole" gear, but rather a hybrid system. You'd be able to find a complete Plate Armor, and as an addition you'd be able to even upgrade that as well with more material from future foes or shops. One has to consider the Equipment system of Pillars of Eternity, classes, and how you want your characters/party members to act and be in combat as well.

A Full Plate Armor might not be the best choice on your Barbarian, or on your Wizard, in some situations. A big shield will mess with your Fighter's accuracy, so having a small shield will do better if you want to hit better and deal better damage. Chances are that a Rogue using Leather Armor, will use some type of Leather Armor throughout the entire game.

With that said, I'm trying to hypothetically conceptualize the idea that instead of finding 1'000s of standard Leather Armors for your Rogue, you instead find material to upgrade your Leather Armor into an Exceptional Leather Armor, and then your Exceptional Leather Armor into a Majestic Leather Armor (examples~) etc. I also think it'd be much easier to code or script something like this to even get out NPC Reaction for Legendary Equipment/Gear/Weapons etc.

Btw, these aren't necessarily suggestions for Pillars of Eternity, but rather just concept ideas.

P.S. Tales of Destiny is my all time favorite story/narrative of all time (plus super fun combat system :D but the story is amazingly well done) probably my most played game of all time. So glad you brought that up (Oh, and Disgaea story is amazing too, Laharl <3)

Edited November 29, 2014 by Osvir

[Emperor Pen]

I am against WYSIWYG for crap loot. I like the idea of the crap stuff breaking and dropping scraps and unique/fine items surviving. I find it tedious to gather the 73 sets of random junk I would in no conceivable way ever use just to sell, and I find it frustrating to leave it there.

 

If we are going for realism without compromise, then every human enemy should drop all of his/her clothing, weapons, armor, trinkets, personal items, organs, skin, meat, etc. The loot list should be thirty things long. After all, maybe you want to roll a character who is a serial killer who likes to cut his enemies feet off and store them in jars? At some point "realism" has to be left behind. So, my question is "do I find looting 73 sets of crap loot from goblins just so I can turn it into cash (per Sensuki's point) very fun?" And, for me, that is a big no. Just drop the cool stuff or stuff for crafting and be done.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Emperor Pen

[GrinningReaper659]

+1 for WYSIWYG.

 

 

Also, for those suggesting that enemy equipment should randomly (or otherwise) not exist after combat because it was destroyed due to the combat:

 

How does it make sense that the enemies' equipment is destroyed during combat while your party's equipment remains intact and unscathed? Was it that last 1 hp that destroyed their gear? I mean, if my party goes through 100 battles and takes enough damage throughout those battles to have reduced every party member's HP to 0 dozens of times over yet their gear isn't any the worse for wear, how do you figure it's more realistic or somehow makes sense that the enemies' gear falls apart during one fight?

 

@Osvir the above wasn't directed at you by the way but rather those that dropped by the thread earlier to suggest that enemies' gear being destroyed during combat would be more realistic/make sense.

[Rahkir]

I am against WYSIWYG for crap loot. I like the idea of the crap stuff breaking and dropping scraps and unique/fine items surviving. I find it tedious to gather the 73 sets of random junk I would in no conceivable way ever use just to sell, and I find it frustrating to leave it there.

 

If we are going for realism without compromise, then every human enemy should drop all of his/her clothing, weapons, armor, trinkets, personal items, organs, skin, meat, etc. The loot list should be thirty things long. After all, maybe you want to roll a character who is a serial killer who likes to cut his enemies feet off and store them in jars? At some point "realism" has to be left behind. So, my question is "do I find looting 73 sets of crap loot from goblins just so I can turn it into cash (per Sensuki's point) very fun?" And, for me, that is a big no. Just drop the cool stuff or stuff for crafting and be done.

The problem I see with "just drop the cool stuff or stuff for crafting" is that your system will degenerate into mindless loot clicking. Everything will be cool or for crafting, so pretty much everything will be worth picking up. It takes away the excitement of finding cool stuff, because everything is cool. In different genres of games, I'm actually in favor of the style you're suggesting. For example, Dark Souls or Bound by Flame pretty much only use the "drop cool stuff" mechanic, and something like Monster Hunter uses the "only drop crafting stuff" mechanic. I enjoy the aforementioned games, but I don't think PoE was intended to be like them. Rather, it was intended to be like the old infinity engine games, where if you killed a goblin archer you got to loot the number of normal arrows it had left, any special arrows, and its bow. I thought that was pretty neat, but maybe I'm in the minority.

 

It also doesn't frustrate me to leave behind 73 short swords; I take the gold and search for cool stuff and move on. I never had problems with money in the IE games - I was overflowing with it most of the time - and I never lugged back all the plain cheapo items to sell. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that -not- looting worthless stuff frustrates people to the point where they need to remove it from the game to enjoy themselves.

[Osvir]

@GrinningReaper: Well, depends on the narrative, destroyed gear could equal to a fake/illusionary durability and repair system. You took damage, so you used the enemies gear to repair your gear, thus, no loot out of the ordinary 'cept some coins. Maintaining your gear as an adventurer would be an adventurer's day-to-day life, when on the road. Kind of like constantly climbing Mount Everest, in the wilds, with no transport, cars, vehicles, but slow moving feet and face horrors, bandits, magical storms, weather etc.

Just saying, that you can always create a solution or an explanation. "Scripted Events" was a solution to both make up for lack of jumping, or other acrobatic movements, and Darklands influenced awesomeness. A good narrative method can make up for a lot of things. But how do you explain, in-game, "You loot all of the damaged opponents gear automatically and repair the damage done to you" without it sounding stupid?

If, in case loot won't drop, and only coins, some random tables, and hand-placed loot, what's your backup mentality? Acceptance or griefing? I personally would prefer if all loot was dropped (and Unlimited Stash removed too, or "Explained/Unlocked" like the Stronghold), and curious if a hybrid crafting+hand-placed loot system could even work well, but hey, if it's no loot, and if it's always run, and Unlimited Stash, I don't dislike the game for it.

I'll still question those design choices though, but those technical elements aren't part of the core game for me anyways

[Emperor Pen]

 

I am against WYSIWYG for crap loot. I like the idea of the crap stuff breaking and dropping scraps and unique/fine items surviving. I find it tedious to gather the 73 sets of random junk I would in no conceivable way ever use just to sell, and I find it frustrating to leave it there.

 

If we are going for realism without compromise, then every human enemy should drop all of his/her clothing, weapons, armor, trinkets, personal items, organs, skin, meat, etc. The loot list should be thirty things long. After all, maybe you want to roll a character who is a serial killer who likes to cut his enemies feet off and store them in jars? At some point "realism" has to be left behind. So, my question is "do I find looting 73 sets of crap loot from goblins just so I can turn it into cash (per Sensuki's point) very fun?" And, for me, that is a big no. Just drop the cool stuff or stuff for crafting and be done.

The problem I see with "just drop the cool stuff or stuff for crafting" is that your system will degenerate into mindless loot clicking. Everything will be cool or for crafting, so pretty much everything will be worth picking up. It takes away the excitement of finding cool stuff, because everything is cool. In different genres of games, I'm actually in favor of the style you're suggesting. For example, Dark Souls or Bound by Flame pretty much only use the "drop cool stuff" mechanic, and something like Monster Hunter uses the "only drop crafting stuff" mechanic. I enjoy the aforementioned games, but I don't think PoE was intended to be like them. Rather, it was intended to be like the old infinity engine games, where if you killed a goblin archer you got to loot the number of normal arrows it had left, any special arrows, and its bow. I thought that was pretty neat, but maybe I'm in the minority.

 

It also doesn't frustrate me to leave behind 73 short swords; I take the gold and search for cool stuff and move on. I never had problems with money in the IE games - I was overflowing with it most of the time - and I never lugged back all the plain cheapo items to sell. I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the idea that -not- looting worthless stuff frustrates people to the point where they need to remove it from the game to enjoy themselves.

 

 

Well, therein lies the problem. With the stash, it will already be mindless looting. We'll be taking everything and sorting it out later as it is. The only difference will be whether we auto sell the 73 longswords/leather armors/trinkets/etc or just get some cash. On the flip side, if they kill the stash, then you don't need the junk items because your limited inventory helps motivate you to keep or discard things. If a monster drops a magic longsword, but I'd only want it to sell/collect, I have to make that same tough decision: do I take it to sell or do I drop it to fit other stuff that I might use (or sell for more)?

 

If the motivation for WYSIWYG is just to have crap loot to make cool loot fun, then add in some crap loot I guess. I just don't want 73 longswords/etc personally.

[forgottenlor]

I'm sort of neutral on this issue. I'd have nothing against WYSIWYG, but if it hasn't made it into the game up until this point, I sort of doubt it will. And I'd personally much rather they spend time on more talents and spells, balancing the game, and removing bugs.

Edited November 29, 2014 by forgottenlor

[ctn2003]

I completely agree with this suggestion as well. 

A think 95% of backers do lol

[W.MacKinnon]

  I agree with Sensuki, dropped loot should match what the enemy was wearing/had equipped. In the old Baldurs Gate's and other Infinity engine games this was due to the game being based on a Pen&Paper game. If anyone has ever played one, players take everything and the kitchen sink when they loot.

 

  Heck if I could I'd loot the castles and temples I travel though in the game. Taking all the decorative painting, carpets, candlesticks, and statuettes that were present. (You know the pretty background stuff.) Heck even a large glowing stone pillar if I thought my character might meet someone to later sell it to. Especially the bodies of slain golems made of valuable materials, such as Adamantine ones. And to those who would say where would you put it, doesn't the player have a stronghold?  All the loot could be hauled to your headquarters via hirelings, your own muscles, and or beasts of burden pulling carts. The infinite stash is kind of a concession to this I imagine as recruiting hirelings/horse driven carts that carry loot to your stronghold is beyond the scope of the game. From a game perspective all this looting of ruins/etc would likely piss off the Glanfathans which would be entertaining to play through.

 

  Also I read someone mentioning, they don't want all the normal sword, or leather armour loot, rather only the +1 or what have you mentionable stuff. Well here's the kicker, collecting all the regular gear and selling it allows you have the coin necessary to buy the magical equipment offered in the Inns or what have you.

Edited November 29, 2014 by W.MacKinnon

[Lephys]

The above proposition doesn't lead to the conclusion that 'mostly pointless' loot like socks and underwear need to be dropped (I say mostly because some player out there might really delight in stealing the briefs from all of his enemies, in which case it isn't entirely pointless). That's an example of realism for realism's sake.

(For what it's worth, you accidentally put your name on my quote, 8P)

 

You're right. The smallclothes thing was an exaggeration, and was kind of beside the point. What is the reason anyone wants WSIWYG loot? It certainly isn't "because I feel the game is really lacking if you can't realistically take any object that would actually be take-able." Hence the reason you don't see anyone saying "Man, I really don't want to run into a situation in which I fight a naked guy and can't loot all his fingernails," and instead you see examples such as "I hate it when I fight a bandit with a shnazzy blade, and he doesn't drop that blade when I kill him." I wonder why this is...

 

I dare say it's because the actual issue at hand is the relationship between dropped loot and wielded loot, for lack of a better term. In other words, what would be wrong with creatures wielding crappy, pitted/rusty shortswords only sometimes dropping them, but creatures wielding increasingly nicer quality weapons and armor always dropping them? Besides "it's not realistic"? Neither is not being able to loot their fingernails, but we've already been over why perfect realism doesn't really help anything.

 

Basically, the problem is either that things need to drop everything that the could possibly be lootable, for the reason of "realism," OR it isn't. If it isn't, then there needs to be some other reason for 73 crappy-quality iron shortswords to drop from 73 bandits, or I'm not gonna say "Yeah, that's an awesome idea, just because!" I'm not saying there isn't any reason for all that to be lootable. I'm simply saying don't do that unless there is.

 

If some fires break out, you could always break open the levee and flood the whole village. OR, you could grab buckets, and apply water to the affected areas only, so that they are extinguished. The flooding of the whole village definitely puts out the fires, but also accomplishes more unwanted results.

[Osvir]

  I agree with Sensuki, dropped loot should match what the enemy was wearing/had equipped. In the old Baldurs Gate's and other Infinity engine games this was due to the game being based on a Pen&Paper game. If anyone has ever played one, players take everything and the kitchen sink when they loot.

 

  Heck if I could I'd loot the castles and temples I travel though in the game. Taking all the decorative painting, carpets, candlesticks, and statuettes that were present. (You know the pretty background stuff.) Heck even a large glowing stone pillar if I thought my character might meet someone to later sell it to. Especially the bodies of slain golems made of valuable materials, such as Adamantine ones. And to those who would say where would you put it, doesn't the player have a stronghold?  All the loot could be hauled to your headquarters via hirelings, your own muscles, and or beasts of burden pulling carts. The infinite stash is kind of a concession to this I imagine as recruiting hirelings/horse driven carts that carry loot to your stronghold is beyond the scope of the game. From a game perspective all this looting of ruins/etc would likely piss off the Glanfathans which would be entertaining to play through.

 

  Also I read someone mentioning, they don't want all the normal sword, or leather armour loot, rather only the +1 or what have you mentionable stuff. Well here's the kicker, collecting all the regular gear and selling it allows you have the coin necessary to buy the magical equipment offered in the Inns or what have you.

 

Whilst I think it's cool to view the "Unlimited Stash" as your own caravan of sort, where are these men and women? How are they explained? In the very opening scene of the game it's contrarian,

the caravan you are a part of gets torn apart, you're on your own.

Unless you mean in the BB, then sure, there could be a caravan with you.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Osvir

[ISC]

creatures wielding crappy, pitted/rusty shortswords only sometimes dropping them, but creatures wielding increasingly nicer quality weapons and armor always dropping them

 

 

This would be fine, deal.

[Marky]

I like when enemies drop the loot they wear, it adds to the roleplaying.

 

"Dang, I've lost my helmet. Hmm, that guard's helmet looks like a good replacement..."

[W.MacKinnon]

 

  I agree with Sensuki, dropped loot should match what the enemy was wearing/had equipped. In the old Baldurs Gate's and other Infinity engine games this was due to the game being based on a Pen&Paper game. If anyone has ever played one, players take everything and the kitchen sink when they loot.

 

  Heck if I could I'd loot the castles and temples I travel though in the game. Taking all the decorative painting, carpets, candlesticks, and statuettes that were present. (You know the pretty background stuff.) Heck even a large glowing stone pillar if I thought my character might meet someone to later sell it to. Especially the bodies of slain golems made of valuable materials, such as Adamantine ones. And to those who would say where would you put it, doesn't the player have a stronghold?  All the loot could be hauled to your headquarters via hirelings, your own muscles, and or beasts of burden pulling carts. The infinite stash is kind of a concession to this I imagine as recruiting hirelings/horse driven carts that carry loot to your stronghold is beyond the scope of the game. From a game perspective all this looting of ruins/etc would likely piss off the Glanfathans which would be entertaining to play through.

 

  Also I read someone mentioning, they don't want all the normal sword, or leather armour loot, rather only the +1 or what have you mentionable stuff. Well here's the kicker, collecting all the regular gear and selling it allows you have the coin necessary to buy the magical equipment offered in the Inns or what have you.

 

Whilst I think it's cool to view the "Unlimited Stash" as your own caravan of sort, where are these men and women? How are they explained? In the very opening scene of the game it's contrarian,

the caravan you are a part of gets torn apart, you're on your own.

Unless you mean in the BB, then sure, there could be a caravan with you.

 

I'm telling your right now in a Pen&Paper game; which my comment was based. If the game developers want to include ways to acquire hirelings; let's think here. Local farmers, villagers could be hired. Town guards, actual laborers from a city, disenfranchised locals/poor, tradesmen from a city. Other adventurer's. Not even dealing with the idea that the Players themselves could just hire/purchase a horse drawn cart and ferry the trade goods to the markets at which they can be sold.

 

*Thought process on where the profit comes from below

 

Take into account that a Large golem(because they are never medium sized) made out of adamantine (as an example) would weigh in the neighbourhood of 4000+pounds. Well lets assume 1lb of adamantine is worth 100gp to 250gp - so worth between 400,000gp to about 1,000,000gp at the high end. Now let's assume you can't sell it at cost - even though it's a "trade good" even at a fraction of true cost let's say 10% still worth 40K gp on the low end. Now how much would hirelings, basic labour cost? Not that much for certain. In most of these settings 10gp would be more then a peasant gets paid in a year. So plenty of profit even if you include loss due to banditry.

 

Really if you ever DMed or played in a Pen&Paper game you've likely had a player squeeing over fighting a monster made of precious metals. Heck even a steel golem is worth a small fortune, think a pound of steel is worth like 50gp or some such. They are always over 1000lbs. They don't make monsters like that medium-sized.

 

Now talking of basic steel swords, they are roughly 2lbs of weapon grade steel(The most expensive kind mind). It wasn't uncommon for them to reforged into other items of use, like plough blades, or other utilitarian items of use to the community.(Meaning they are marketable as being steel, not just as weapons to equip an army) Now if "Bandits" really are such a big problem, the cost for delivered goods would go up - meaning more profit for the players if they decided to trek with the goods themselves.

 

I mentioned it was beyond the scope of the game for a reason, but players would in fact collect all steel weapons, all items of value to sell at a later date. For instance an ancient statue from a haunted dungeon, would be worth thousands of gold as an art item. As a DM I make sure to include the fixtures of a dungeon when looking at character wealth by level tables.

 

From a player standpoint hiring people to drive the carts carrying the goods even at explosively high rates of 250gp+ their would still be huge profits. Having the player with high Charisma, good diplomacy skills and gold to spend to hire labours - could likely hire people from any market. Heck it's quite possible local lords would be sending their army to attack the players due to displacing local serfs and labourers from their markets, or a suitability clever player may co-op a local lord via bribes or trade agreements to make their serfs help transport the goods. The best labour is free labour and serfs could be told moving the goods was paying their taxes.

[Sensuki]

Some enemies are supposed to spawn with different weapons equipped. In one game a guy might have a Greatsword, in another he might have a Mace and Shield - that's what Josh Sawyer has said a few times in the past, although I've never seen that happen in the game so far.

 

Not sure whether the feature was cut or not, but I think it's because the dropped loot and equipped item systems of non party members are not connected. It should be easy to connect them if they use the code they have for party members data.

[ctn2003]

good luck

[Rahkir]

 

The above proposition doesn't lead to the conclusion that 'mostly pointless' loot like socks and underwear need to be dropped (I say mostly because some player out there might really delight in stealing the briefs from all of his enemies, in which case it isn't entirely pointless). That's an example of realism for realism's sake.

(For what it's worth, you accidentally put your name on my quote, 8P)

 

You're right. The smallclothes thing was an exaggeration, and was kind of beside the point. What is the reason anyone wants WSIWYG loot? It certainly isn't "because I feel the game is really lacking if you can't realistically take any object that would actually be take-able." Hence the reason you don't see anyone saying "Man, I really don't want to run into a situation in which I fight a naked guy and can't loot all his fingernails," and instead you see examples such as "I hate it when I fight a bandit with a shnazzy blade, and he doesn't drop that blade when I kill him." I wonder why this is...

 

I dare say it's because the actual issue at hand is the relationship between dropped loot and wielded loot, for lack of a better term. In other words, what would be wrong with creatures wielding crappy, pitted/rusty shortswords only sometimes dropping them, but creatures wielding increasingly nicer quality weapons and armor always dropping them? Besides "it's not realistic"? Neither is not being able to loot their fingernails, but we've already been over why perfect realism doesn't really help anything.

 

Basically, the problem is either that things need to drop everything that the could possibly be lootable, for the reason of "realism," OR it isn't. If it isn't, then there needs to be some other reason for 73 crappy-quality iron shortswords to drop from 73 bandits, or I'm not gonna say "Yeah, that's an awesome idea, just because!" I'm not saying there isn't any reason for all that to be lootable. I'm simply saying don't do that unless there is.

 

Indeed I did. I wonder how that happened. (I can't figure out how to get rid of nested quotes, sticky buggers. Sometimes I only want to quote the person, not the person that that person quoted!)

 

In my defense, I think I answered the question, "Why should bandits drop their crappy shortswords?"

To quote myself, "If I want to use a Scimitar, why do I have to find and kill one of the X out of Y guys, where X = people who drop scimitars and Y = people who use them? Why can't I simply find one of the Y guys and take it from him?" (This is assuming enemies sometimes drop full weapons, and not always resources. IF you're proposing an always resource type loot system, I have other reasons I dislike that, which I've also stated in prior posts.)

 

Perhaps put in a different way: There will be a point in the game where crappy quality iron short swords are valuable and you will want them to drop from the people you defeat. There will also be a point, presumably toward the end of the game, where fine quality iron short swords lose their utility as equipment. There will also be a point, presumably in the expansion, where magic iron short swords lose their utility as equipment. When and where exactly should items start turning into resources? It seems rather arbitrary to say standard weapons are always resources but fine ones aren't, when they both lose their utility after a certain point

 

To argue against some enemies dropping weapons and others not:

Since the game is non-linear, to ensure that you can acquire the items you might want, the designers will need to work some form of Ramsey Theory into their loot system. What is the minimum number of mandatory A such that B? A = enemies that drop X, B = the party has access to Y(X).

For example,

A = enemies who drop short swords.

B = the party has access to Y(short swords)

Y = whatever number of short swords satisfies some selected criteria. (e.g. Minimum amount usable by party: 12. Minimum amount usable by PC: 2. And so on.)

What is the minimum number of mandatory enemies who drop short swords such that the party has access to Y(short swords)?

 

If no A is mandatory, then you can't guarantee the player won't want a short sword at any time in the game. To make this specific to quality you can append: "before Z is available" to the above formula. Where Z would be the next step up in quality. So you would be asking: What is the minimum number of mandatory enemies who drop short swords such that the party has access to Y(short swords) BEFORE fine iron short swords are available?

(Theoretical stuff that you don't really need to read.)

 

It may very well be the case that you won't have access to the number of short swords required to outfit your team under a WYSIWYG system, but in that case it would be because you didn't fight 12 enemies using short swords, not because they broke by chance or because some-non-WYSIWYG system decided only 3 of the 12 short sword users you fought would drop short swords.

 

I'm also aware that there are these things called shops, wherein you can usually buy standard equipment, but I think you would be hard pressed to argue that it's more intuitive and beneficial for enemies to, say, drop the value of a shortsword in coins, then have me go to a shop and spend those coins... on a short sword. Indeed, you could buy things other than a shortsword, but if that is your intent and the value of a shortsword really is worth looting and selling, what's the problem with going back to town, selling it, and then buying what you want? One system means you can't find a shortsword in the field and immediately use it, the other means you need to click an extra button or two to sell the short sword and buy something else. Which system seems more detrimental to you?

 

I'm more in favor of a 'resource' drop system over a system where some enemies drop full items and some don't. That said, I think a WYSIWYG system is more intuitive, more fun, and more suited to a game like this than a resource based one or a WYSISWYG (what you see is sometimes what you get) system.

[constantine]

I'm guessing It's probably the crafting + resource gathering idea in POE that necessitates the stash, since these will all clog up a strictly IE style n-slot inventory. Since you have an infini-stash you can't have wysiwyg since it's to easy too vacuum everything up, rather then make the decisions from IE games like, having to optimize equipment and try and value what's best to bring back and keep (bag of holding not-withstanding). So why not differentiate and only allow an infini-stash for unequipable, unconsumable items used for crafting and let all other ones be restricted to the regular inventory. Now you can go back to wysiwyg.

 

In fact, treat gems and gold to the stash, etc and reduce the regular inventory would be a fine idea to me. Figuring out the best way to equip is part of the challenge IMHO.

So..

 

Obsidian introduces the stash, angering a number of people who want a more 'realistic' inventory system (I am not one of them, I like the stash).

 

Now loot is generic- you drop a guy wearing plate,you won't get it, unless the programmers name that a 'special encounter' designed to drop normal or masterwork or magical plate. You get some cp instead.

 

Yeah, people can throw any number of items in the stash and hoard dozens of items should loot be 'what.you.see.is.what.you.get'

 

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THEN DON'T PUT A STASH OF INFINITE CAPACITY IN THE FIRST PLACE IF YOU THINK IT WILL INTRODUCE PROBLEMS

 

Current loot system introduces bigger problems:

 

-First and foremost- player frustation, where is that special soldier that I have to kill to get his/her plate ? Or perhaps I can collect all those cps and buy my own at the store.

 

-Even less rewarding encounters- we don't have 'kill XP', now we also don't have meaningful loot ! 'Trash' encounters have one less reason of existence.

 

-It's bad for players to see the developers take actions that counter their previous ones- like, trying to patch up mistakes.

 

-Even less realism- but then again, who cares for that, huh ?