Thoughts from a casual gamer

[Shevek]

Ok, so why does the current implementation of difficulty (more mobs generally - though some tougher mobs too, I think) preclude fixing engagement by simply tuning down engagement attack dmg? (EDIT: I would also add a minor, nonstacking snare to engagement as well)

Edited November 11, 2014 by Shevek

[Sensuki]

And I was just doing Spectral Guards fights in IWD and damn every second counts and I already paused too much in those fights. And I changed my tune about not needing to pause a lot in IE games lol, I guess many fight are too easy in IE to need lots of pausing :D

 

I didn't have much trouble with them.

[Cubiq]

Ok, so why does the current implementation of difficulty (more mobs generally - though some tougher mobs too, I think) preclude fixing engagement by simply tuning down engagement attack dmg? (EDIT: I would also add a minor, nonstacking snare to engagement as well)

Have you actually tried playing Path of the Damned?

Because you would need to nerf it so much across the board if you want it to affect the other game plays at all that it would become irrelevant on normal.

If you're trying to affect only the normal mode then that's just a **** design, you haven't actually fixed anything.

And you can already disengage on normal without much difficulty if you pop some simple abilities and get the disengagement talent.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Cubiq

[Shevek]

Sensuki:

 

Just found Bester's mod. I'm gonna try my party with a fine pollaxe and a fine pike. I should steam roll through stuff with the added dmg.

 

Cubiq:

 

I guess I am just lost when I try to get your point. Path of the Damned is hard. So? Its supposed to be. Look, all I am saying is reduce engagement attack dmg. Keep it relevant (especially vs groups) but not overly punitive. I would drop the dmg down to where engagement attacks are mostly grazes with the occaisonal regular hit and that it gives a minor snare. Players may just deal raw dmg or ignore it vs single regular enemies but against groups or bosses, they may need to rethink things a bit. I don't see how difficulty settings matter in this discussion. Ya, on Path of the Damned, you may be screwed when trying to move regardless. Well, guess what, its called Path of the Damned. 

Edited November 11, 2014 by Shevek

[Razsius]

Finished up the "zone of control" section that I was working on that addressed movement while being engaged and disengagement attack triggers.  Next up is the "engagement limit" section that should provide reasonable mobility options affected by player agency that still has "cost" associated with it (it would greatly improve one talent as well).  I'm seeing a whole bunch of discussion in this thread regarding engagement and have noted that there isn't a single thing about the mechanic I won't have accounted for.  Best yet, the system makes internal sense, is fairly robust and wouldn't be overly hard to code (I think).  For example, there would basically be no reason to nerf the damage of disengagement attacks (wouldn't really address the issue many have anyways).

 

Won't have the time today to be able to write the rest most like.  Just two more sections and a conclusion.  C'mon Raz! We're almost at the home stretch!

 

I honestly think you guys will like it.  It just keeps getting better as I put more thought into it.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Razsius

[Sensuki]

So does mine

[archangel979]

 

And I was just doing Spectral Guards fights in IWD and damn every second counts and I already paused too much in those fights. And I changed my tune about not needing to pause a lot in IE games lol, I guess many fight are too easy in IE to need lots of pausing :D

 

I didn't have much trouble with them.

 

I am talking about the Luremaster quest guards in expansion for IWD.

[Sensuki]

Oh right, I don't think I've done Trials of the Luremaster before, need to get around to that sometime.

There's Spectral Guards in IWD though - In Joril's Cave.  Nope, they're Black Ice Knights.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[Cubiq]

Well, guess what, its called Path of the Damned.

No it's called "**** design by Shevek"

You actually really are trying to only affect the normal mode, which makes your argument against Sensuki completely irrelevant then, since all you came up with then is "they will probably fix it"

Edited November 11, 2014 by Cubiq

[YunikoYokai5]

Well, when they fix Pally auras, you can easily build a passive party around a paladin. That will give you another party build option. Part of the issue is that the game is in beta and has a some balancing and bugs to work out before release.

 

Sorry, this will sound very basic, but what exactly is a passive party/how does one build one/advantages and disadvantages to it? You've mentioned party builds several times but I'm afraid I am not familiar with any of them at all (this is my very first isometric RPG, there is still a lot I don't know). 

Edited November 11, 2014 by YunikoYokai5

[Sensuki]

Passive means you pick abilities and talents that do not require you to do anything for them to work. Playing passively means that you do not need to use as many abilities and spells and you can just sit there auto-attacking. The Paladin is fairly passive because the bread and butter of their class is their auras. You might pick Flames of Devotion or Lay on Hands, but other than that, the Paladin won't really do much else other than attack people.

More active classes are like WIzards, Priests and Ciphers where you need to constantly queue up spells/abilities for best effectiveness.

 

Passive and Active speaks about the player input, requires less input = more passive. Requires more = more active.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[YunikoYokai5]

Passive means you pick abilities and talents that do not require you to do anything for them to work. Playing passively means that you do not need to use as many abilities and spells and you can just sit there auto-attacking. The Paladin is fairly passive because the bread and butter of their class is their auras. You might pick Flames of Devotion or Lay on Hands, but other than that, the Paladin won't really do much else other than attack people.

 

More active classes are like WIzards, Priests and Ciphers where you need to constantly queue up spells/abilities for best effectiveness.

 

Passive and Active speaks about the player input, requires less input = more passive. Requires more = more active.

 

Ah, ok. That makes sense. Thank you! I did notice I had to be more 'active' with my wizard and priest than my Paladin or Fighter

[Quantics]

Psst, there's a new PoE trailer out :

 

 

 

[archangel979]

Looks awesome

[IndiraLightfoot]

But currently plays assome...

[prodigydancer]

Psst, there's a new PoE trailer out :

 

 

 

Looks nice but music is all wrong. First, because it's generic epic music that screams "you're watching a B-movie trailer". Second, it doesn't match video pacing at all especially towards the end.

[Cubiq]

I actually really like that soundtrack.

I hope it's from Justin Bell, the same guy that makes the music in game.

The start feels like the inspiration from icewind dale music which i really like.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Cubiq

[Kjaamor]

The thread exploded in my absence, but just to clarify some minor points raised a few pages back I would like to clarify my position.

 

For me, engagement doesn't have to exist in terms of suffering health penalties for disengagement, and I would more than encourage the use of stickies and stuns as a form of engagement. There are many ways to explore how to make engagement work, and I am against ditching the mechanic entirely.

 

Again, for me, there are two very specific examples of IE kiting which need to be addressed (amongst others), which are actually the result of opposing approaches to aggro in the IE games.

 

1. The Benny Hill

 

5 characters use ranged weapons, the final character is the bait. The bait character runs in loops around the screen staying closest to the mob but out of harms way, while the other characters range onto it until it dies. No-one takes a hit. See "The Ogre with the Girdle" from BG and (and this is absolutely unforgivable in my eyes) "Saverok from BG".

 

2. The "Oh, I'm sorry." "Oh, I'm sorry." "Oh, I'm sorry."

 

5 characters use ranged weapons, the final character is the stopper, you have a relatively tight corridor. The ranged characters are attacking the mob and it wants to attack them. It walks down the corridor. You attempt to walk the stopper just past it. Both mob and stopper bump into one another and then immediately briefly retreat and the mob tries to get past on the other side. Player then gets his stopper to walk past the mob on the same side again. The process repeats. Eventually the mob dies. No-one takes a hit.

 

PoE needs to address this, as it has attempted to address the off-the-screen spell bombard exploit. Some form of engagement system is one of many ways to do so.

[IndiraLightfoot]

Personally, I love the music, but this...

 

Second, it doesn't match video pacing at all especially towards the end.

...is actually quite correct.

[IndiraLightfoot]

The thread exploded in my absence, but just to clarify some minor points raised a few pages back I would like to clarify my position.

 

For me, engagement doesn't have to exist in terms of suffering health penalties for disengagement, and I would more than encourage the use of stickies and stuns as a form of engagement. There are many ways to explore how to make engagement work, and I am against ditching the mechanic entirely.

 

Again, for me, there are two very specific examples of IE kiting which need to be addressed (amongst others), which are actually the result of opposing approaches to aggro in the IE games.

 

1. The Benny Hill

 

5 characters use ranged weapons, the final character is the bait. The bait character runs in loops around the screen staying closest to the mob but out of harms way, while the other characters range onto it until it dies. No-one takes a hit. See "The Ogre with the Girdle" from BG and (and this is absolutely unforgivable in my eyes) "Saverok from BG".

 

2. The "Oh, I'm sorry." "Oh, I'm sorry." "Oh, I'm sorry."

 

5 characters use ranged weapons, the final character is the stopper, you have a relatively tight corridor. The ranged characters are attacking the mob and it wants to attack them. It walks down the corridor. You attempt to walk the stopper just past it. Both mob and stopper bump into one another and then immediately briefly retreat and the mob tries to get past on the other side. Player then gets his stopper to walk past the mob on the same side again. The process repeats. Eventually the mob dies. No-one takes a hit.

 

PoE needs to address this, as it has attempted to address the off-the-screen spell bombard exploit. Some form of engagement system is one of many ways to do so.

I reckon this is a good sum-up of what is not very nice gameplay in the IE games. Hence, I'd rather have NWN2's system of AoO, but improved of course, with top-notch feedback and adapted to PoE.

Presently, the disengagement system is far too flawed. It needs an overhaul.

[Sensuki]

See "The Ogre with the Girdle" from BG and (and this is absolutely unforgivable in my eyes) "Saverok from BG".

Never did that to either the Ogre or Sarevok. For the Ogre I found out that in vanilla BG he *never* kills Imoen outright for some reason, I always send her in to bait his attack, and then take him down with the PC, Khalid and Jaheira.

 

If I use my PC to tank the Ogre, he/she gets killed in one hit every time, but for some reason Imoen can withstand a Flail to the face pretty well

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sensuki: You are dead-on about that. The question is: How can PoE avoid what Kjaamor described?

You mentioned pathfinding for his 2nd example, but the 1st is something of Josh's pet peeve.

Edited November 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

With disables. Stun the guy that's baiting, problem solved. That's exactly what I want - no Engagement, but abilities that give CC that you can use in order to be sticky. All that's required is to look at what other real-time games do to prevent this situation, and the answer is disables and cc.

 

Then that actually forces you to react, oh crap my guy got stunned, I need to suppress the Affliction! - it promotes a reaction from the player, and they have to use tactics.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki

[IndiraLightfoot]

Stupid question: Why and how does he get stunned, though? Automagically? Or as in actual stunning counter spells or physical attacks?

Edited November 11, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sensuki]

Ideally classes would have some things that can stop you or slow you down. Rogues have a Crippling Strike, that hobbles you. Druid AI already casts CC stuff that hobbles you as well. Ciphers could have a ranged stun/knockdown ability (actually they already natively have truckloads of CC). Paladins could have an AoE slow aura, that would allow them and their allies to catch up to you (and would actually make you cast movement speed increasing spells to counter it).

 

There's lots of possibilities, all you have to do is look at non-RPG real-time games for the answers.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Sensuki