Namutree Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 These are businesses, not individuals. As an individual you can be as bigoted as you want. You can keep people off your personal property for whatever reasons you want. Businesses do not have the same rights. Why should they? They belong to those individuals who own them. A violation of the business freedom is a violation of the owners freedom. 2 "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Magniloquent Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 These are businesses, not individuals. As an individual you can be as bigoted as you want. You can keep people off your personal property for whatever reasons you want. Businesses do not have the same rights. Why should they? A business is personal property. It is no different than the shirt you are wearing. Just as your shirt can be clothing, kindling for a fire, or a wash rag, a business serves the purposes of the owner. It is how the person expends their time and resources to live within the world. There are few things more personal than that. Forcibly compelling the business (owner) under the threat of violence and theft to work for the benefit of another against their will is the very definition of slavery. Bigotry is undesirable, but slavery is not a solution. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Magniloquent Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. Right. License. Permission. There is nothing good about that. Business licenses are immoral. It is The State claiming that you may not operate and enterprise to support your life without paying your "protection money". Fail to pay your protection money, and....maybe your business doesn't do so good. Maybe some guys with guns come on over a shut you down. Capiche? This is The State contending that *you* are its property. That's the full circle of my first comment in this thread. The State is immoral, and voting is legitimizing that evil. An eligible voter turn-out of 33% is joyous news. I suggests that people are waking up the the false dichotomy of Red vs. Blue--and therefore the true nature of The State. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. Edited November 13, 2014 by Namutree "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 As an aside, as someone who is trying to start a business, the anti-discrimination laws are the least of my worries when it comes to dealing with government entities. The taxes and licensing fees are way more problematic. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enoch Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. I know it's unlikely to convince you, but American legal precedent has clearly rejected this view. Edited November 13, 2014 by Enoch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsuelm Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 As an aside, as someone who is trying to start a business, the anti-discrimination laws are the least of my worries when it comes to dealing with government entities. The taxes and licensing fees are way more problematic. There should be absolutely no licensing fees or licenses period. This nation shifted into high gear on the going to sh*t road when we started having to get licenses for everything and anything. In a free nation the government doesn't give you permission to open business X, and it generally doesn't even know what you do for a living. One of the reasons the U.S. economy is perpetually in shambles and so many people live in poverty is that government has so many roadblocks in place, most of which have a monetary cost to them, to keep a person from starting a business. Detroit, upstate New York, and the rest of the rust belt are great examples of this. Your home state is starting to become one as well (following almost exactly in the footsteps of my home state), as company after company are fleeing Cali for states (or even other nations) with less roadblocks. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shallow Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 As an aside, as someone who is trying to start a business, the anti-discrimination laws are the least of my worries when it comes to dealing with government entities. The taxes and licensing fees are way more problematic. Seeing as you don't seem to be a person who'd be doing discrimination should it become legal you're probably not the kind of person who would feel oppressed by it. I do not consider discrimination laws high priority stuff to knock down (the things we should hurry up and tip over are the simple super obvious issues like for example marriage, which should be severed from government as quickly as possible), I still don't like them though, but I can see why some people do. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 As an aside, as someone who is trying to start a business, the anti-discrimination laws are the least of my worries when it comes to dealing with government entities. The taxes and licensing fees are way more problematic. Seeing as you don't seem to be a person who'd be doing discrimination should it become legal you're probably not the kind of person who would feel oppressed by it. I do not consider discrimination laws high priority stuff to knock down (the things we should hurry up and tip over are the simple super obvious issues like for example marriage, which should be severed from government as quickly as possible), I still don't like them though, but I can see why some people do. The words... You stole them from my mouth! "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valsuelm Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. I know it's unlikely to convince you, but American legal precedent has clearly rejected this view. It took over 140 years before legal precedent that so blatantly disregards the words and intentions behind the Constitution such as that became the norm, and to do it the decisions that set that precedent ignored most of the previous 140 years of precedent. The giant hole in freedom as well as justification for pretty much limitless expansive Federal powers that's been created through the commerce clause in the 20th century is a good example (and a somewhat infamous one amongst those familiar with U.S. law) to cite in how the U.S. seriously lost it's way on the liberty road, and found it on the feudalistic/socialist/technocratic/fascist Oligarch run highway for serfs. It is never something to hold in high regard if you at all value freedom or the ideals that this nation was founded on. Edited November 13, 2014 by Valsuelm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. I know it's unlikely to convince you, but American legal precedent has clearly rejected this view. Clearly they have. Hence the laws. So consider me convinced. "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gfted1 Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 One of the reasons the U.S. economy is perpetually in shambles and so many people live in poverty is that government has so many roadblocks in place, most of which have a monetary cost to them, to keep a person from starting a business. Detroit, upstate New York, and the rest of the rust belt are great examples of this. Your home state is starting to become one as well (following almost exactly in the footsteps of my home state), as company after company are fleeing Cali for states (or even other nations) with less roadblocks. This may interest you, Start-Up NY. "I'm your biggest fan, Ill follow you until you love me, Papa" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 13, 2014 Author Share Posted November 13, 2014 Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. I know it's unlikely to convince you, but American legal precedent has clearly rejected this view. Well this very informative link should settle this discussion, just because you own a property it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against people and, for example, refuse to serve them because of issues like ethnicity or sexual orientation ? "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Namutree Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Owning a business does not give you carte blanche to do whatever you want. You have Federal, State, County, and City restrictions to follow in order to keep your license. That may not make you and Vall happy, but that is reality. That's true, but it's still a violation of property rights. At any rate; some one who would actually exercise that right would likely go broke anyway so... Oh well. I know it's unlikely to convince you, but American legal precedent has clearly rejected this view. Well this very informative link should settle this discussion, just because you own a property it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against people and, for example, refuse to serve them because of issues like ethnicity or sexual orientation ? This link only proves how the US govt came to violate property rights. Not that discriminating against races/sexual orientations are high up on the list of property rights to defend. 1 "Good thing I don't heal my characters or they'd be really hurt." Is not something I should ever be thinking. I use blue text when I'm being sarcastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadySands Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Well, one thing is for sure Obsidian games attract the most interesting people 4 Free games updated 3/4/21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shallow Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 (edited) Well this very informative link should settle this discussion, just because you own a property it doesn't give you the right to discriminate against people and, for example, refuse to serve them because of issues like ethnicity or sexual orientation ? What? Just because something is the law doesn't mean it's right, it's just plain silly. The law may be the law, but the only thing the law means is that some people will punish me if I break the rules they set up. I know a lot of people also hold up the constitution and consider it holy, they worship the law too, and as far as I'm concerned, besides the fact that the ideas they're pushing are far better, they're still just as bad as the side that pisses all over it in that they're trying to uphold the immensely outdated governing system the US is run by (a unitary republic is also just as bad if not worse, that's not what I believe in, although unitary republics tend to behave in slightly less outdated manners). Edited November 13, 2014 by Shallow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK htiw klaw eriF Posted November 13, 2014 Share Posted November 13, 2014 Well, one thing is for sure Obsidian games attract the most interesting people I came for PoE, I stayed to post pictures of women and troll the off-topic. 1 "Akiva Goldsman and Alex Kurtzman run the 21st century version of MK ULTRA." - majestic "I'm gonna hunt you down so that I can slap you square in the mouth." - Bartimaeus "Without individual thinking you can't notice the plot holes." - InsaneCommander "Just feed off the suffering of gamers." - Malcador "You are calling my taste crap." -Hurlshort "thankfully it seems like the creators like Hungary less this time around." - Sarex "Don't forget the wakame, dumbass" -Keyrock "Are you trolling or just being inadvertently nonsensical?' -Pidesco "we have already been forced to admit you are at least human" - uuuhhii "I refuse to buy from non-woke businesses" - HoonDing "feral camels are now considered a pest" - Gorth "Melkathi is known to be an overly critical grumpy person" - Melkathi "Oddly enough Sanderson was a lot more direct despite being a Mormon" - Zoraptor "I found it greatly disturbing to scroll through my cartoon's halfing selection of genitalias." - Wormerine "Am I phrasing in the most negative light for them? Yes, but it's not untrue." - ShadySands Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 What I’m seeing now is something insidious following this though. A number of businesses, one bakery in particular has refused to make a cake for a gay couple. They are now facing lawsuits and criminal prosecution. Just as no one should be able to stop a gay couple from getting married, no one should be compelled to participate in it either. That is the difference between progressivism and libertarianism When you run a business, you are subject to non-discrimination laws. Religious organizations can get around this, but I fail to see how a for profit business deserves a free pass here. Would it be fair for your local bar to only serve white people? This is really the point GD, substitute the word gay for African American and ask how you or society would feel about a bakery not making cakes for an African American couple ? Bigotry is bigotry and it doesn't matter how you try to sugar coat it That is apples and oranges on this particular case. He didn't kick them out of his store, he didn't refuse to sell them a dozen doughnuts. They asked for a specific thing he did not feel comfortable supplying "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 What I’m seeing now is something insidious following this though. A number of businesses, one bakery in particular has refused to make a cake for a gay couple. They are now facing lawsuits and criminal prosecution. Just as no one should be able to stop a gay couple from getting married, no one should be compelled to participate in it either. That is the difference between progressivism and libertarianism When you run a business, you are subject to non-discrimination laws. Religious organizations can get around this, but I fail to see how a for profit business deserves a free pass here. Would it be fair for your local bar to only serve white people? Like I said to Bruce, he did not kick them out of his shop and he did not refuse to serve them. He refused a specific request based on his religious principles. If a Kosher butcher shop refused to sell you pork chops would you sue them or just go somewhere else? "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Heh, I know GD well enough to know that scenario is not going to win him over. That's why I used a bar in my hypothetical scenario! "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Well, one thing is for sure Obsidian games attract the most interesting people I came for PoE, I stayed to post pictures of women and troll the off-topic. Heck I came here for KOTOR2 and never left. "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guard Dog Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Ok one last post (I had a lot of catching up to do) this is the actual story: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/12/Christian-Baker-Willing-to-Go-to-Jail-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake As I've posted before this does not rise near the level "We don't serve your kind here" One thing I noted though, the owner claims he is refusing the service because he is faithfully following Jesus. I can't speak for Jesus but He did tell us to 'Love one another: just as I have loved you". I suspect He would have made the cake. I would have too. Their money is just as green as anyone else's. It's the "comply or go to jail" I have a problem with. 1 "While it is true you learn with age, the down side is what you often learn is what a damn fool you were before" Thomas Sowell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BruceVC Posted November 14, 2014 Author Share Posted November 14, 2014 Ok one last post (I had a lot of catching up to do) this is the actual story: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/12/Christian-Baker-Willing-to-Go-to-Jail-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake As I've posted before this does not rise near the level "We don't serve your kind here" One thing I noted though, the owner claims he is refusing the service because he is faithfully following Jesus. I can't speak for Jesus but He did tell us to 'Love one another: just as I have loved you". I suspect He would have made the cake. I would have too. Their money is just as green as anyone else's. It's the "comply or go to jail" I have a problem with. I'm sorry but when I see that type of religious hypocrisy it just frustrates me..the point being its amazing how some people choose to practice the hate\animosity part within the Bible and not focus on the positive like what Jesus said about "Loving your neighbour " "Abashed the devil stood and felt how awful goodness is and saw Virtue in her shape how lovely: and pined his loss” John Milton "We don't stop playing because we grow old; we grow old because we stop playing.” - George Bernard Shaw "What counts in life is not the mere fact that we have lived. It is what difference we have made to the lives of others that will determine the significance of the life we lead" - Nelson Mandela Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hurlshort Posted November 14, 2014 Share Posted November 14, 2014 Ok one last post (I had a lot of catching up to do) this is the actual story: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/12/12/Christian-Baker-Willing-to-Go-to-Jail-for-Declining-Gay-Wedding-Cake As I've posted before this does not rise near the level "We don't serve your kind here" One thing I noted though, the owner claims he is refusing the service because he is faithfully following Jesus. I can't speak for Jesus but He did tell us to 'Love one another: just as I have loved you". I suspect He would have made the cake. I would have too. Their money is just as green as anyone else's. It's the "comply or go to jail" I have a problem with. How is that not saying we don't serve your kind here? They are asking for the same cake that any straight couple can get from the bakery. The crazy thing is part of the evidence used against him in the court case showed that he took an order to make a cake for a wedding between two dogs. The jail time is also a bit sketchy. He is saying he would rather go to jail. The courts are saying he needs to serve cakes to everyone and educate his staff, and document who he refuses service to. Now if he continues to discriminate and run his business, he could face fines and a very unlikely jail sentence. It's more likely he will be fined and lose his business license, but that will depend on the judge. It's actually more reasonable than the Oregon baker, who got hit with a bunch of legal fees over $100k. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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