Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Orogun01]

An interesting development 

http://theralphretort.com/gawker-owner-nick-denton-admits-gamergate-sabotage/

[Enoch]

@ Meshugger:  Waah, they said mean things about me!  They should be fired for hurting my feelings!

 

@ TrueNeutral:  Well, from what I've read of your contribution to these threads, you've got a better reason than most to care intently about the quality and honesty of games journalism-- it affects your livelihood and that of the folks you work and associate with.  And the point about reviews and critiques is solid-- games journalism has very low standards, because it is not especially attractive to folks in terms of either money or prestige.  But from the point of view of an ordinary consumer, if you take folks at their word and assume that this is only about games journalism ethics, the emotional intensity of their complaints take on

.  I don't doubt that such folks exist, but one can understand how opponents and mass media folks covering the controversy have concluded that most of the vocal supporters are at least a little influenced by stuff beyond media ethics. Edited November 4, 2014 by Enoch

[Gorgon]

Reading the main stream media's (it's such a tired term) coverage of gamergate has done nothing to instil in me a sense that surely there are 'journalists' and there are, you know, old fashioned actual journalists - that those still exist. 

 

They barely even mention what was my main grievance the whole time that games journalists are in a symbiotic relationship to games publishers and PR departments and that  it is therefore practically impossible for them not to be aware of one another's needs. Imagine a food critic who relied on revenue from the resturant he was reviewing to have a pay check every month. What would such a review be worth to anyone ?. At the end of the day the customers still need to know if the food is any good. There is going to be some kind of evaluation of that... The metaphor is getting long winded but you get my point. 

 

That's the stake I have in Gamergate. I had vain hopes that there would be some kind of groundswell of shame swept on game sites that would force them to change. Anita Sarkeesian, I wish her well in her career as a media critic, or whatever she is. May she sell milions of books, as long as I don't have to read them.  

[aluminiumtrioxid]

@ Meshugger:  Waah, they said mean things about me!  They should be fired for hurting my feelings!

 

 

Actually, not even that. Well, okay, maybe 3 or 4 did out of the 18 they like to complain about.

[Malcador]

Hey, hurt feelings is true damage and cause for a Twitter campaign these days.

 

After all isn't GG evil due to nasty Twitter posts to Quinn and her buddies?

Edited November 4, 2014 by Malcador

[Tale]

I decided to venture into this thread a little today against my better judgement and was delighted by what I saw. Trashman talking about fighting against imaginary monsters.

 

And then I remembered something, I have a fun little plugin installed.

Even if we were to win, the skeleton's won't stop attacking us.

Guess what it does?

 

Even when I realized this, my interpretation of this angle of the debate is unchanged. Tilting at windmills.

[Malcador]

Ah, you're one of those people.

[BruceVC]

 

 

Part of the reason journos and media are corrupt is because they got inflitrated by SJW's.

 

The fact that they are SJWs is not important. The corruption is the problem, and any group is capable of being corrupt. We've already made post discussing the christian game sites, and how we approve of their methods. This situation could easily be the reverse; where zealous christian journalists were the corrupt ones and it was the SJW game sites that are the admirable model.

 

 

 

So Brianna, Anita and Zoe - they have impacted us by crying "mysogony" and spinning their narrative. A narrative the media was too quick to jump on to.

 

The 3 are a symptom of a problem, and technically small fish. But make no mistake in thinking we're just fighting against game journos. Even if we were to win, the SJW's won't stop attacking us.

 

The 3? What are they; some kind of super villains in a western fantasy? These three are just anti-gamergate critics. Their only importance is what you give them. If we win; they can attack us all they want; after all, we will have won. The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalism; is the day I (and anyone reasonable) loses interest in gamergate.

 

 

 

GamerGate is about ethics in game journalism - this may be the only reason *some* GGers joined. 

 

From what I understand it's why *most* joined, and it's the only cause that justifies the term 'gamergate'. If gaming journalism isn't the point of gamergate; don't you think it's a misleading term? 

 

 

 I fight for ethics and professionalism in the media (ALL media) too, but to me personally, the main fight is against SJW's.

The game journos are just the fist fight. Once they are taken care off, we can move onto other targets.

 

Gamergate should NOT have a political agenda. Gamergate is first and foremost a consumer revolt. This isn't about politics, or social engineering. This is about corrupt gaming journalism, and how gamers are being mistreated by these websites. If fighting SJWs is your goal; go ahead and start a movement against them rather than join a consumer revolt about journalistic ethics.

 

Also, if gamergate even does have a battle after we win this fight; cleaning up mainstream journalism would be a better net step than going after SJWs some more.

 

 

Good post Namutree, you make your posts in a very convincing and reasonable way. I admire that character trait

 

I am just surprised you are still part of GG as its already crossed that line you stated where you said "The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalists "

 

There are many examples of this from certain members of GG

 

Its odd you can't seem to see it ?

[Namutree]

 

.

HAHAHHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH!!! I loved this video!!!

[Namutree]

 

 

 

Part of the reason journos and media are corrupt is because they got inflitrated by SJW's.

 

The fact that they are SJWs is not important. The corruption is the problem, and any group is capable of being corrupt. We've already made post discussing the christian game sites, and how we approve of their methods. This situation could easily be the reverse; where zealous christian journalists were the corrupt ones and it was the SJW game sites that are the admirable model.

 

 

 

So Brianna, Anita and Zoe - they have impacted us by crying "mysogony" and spinning their narrative. A narrative the media was too quick to jump on to.

 

The 3 are a symptom of a problem, and technically small fish. But make no mistake in thinking we're just fighting against game journos. Even if we were to win, the SJW's won't stop attacking us.

 

The 3? What are they; some kind of super villains in a western fantasy? These three are just anti-gamergate critics. Their only importance is what you give them. If we win; they can attack us all they want; after all, we will have won. The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalism; is the day I (and anyone reasonable) loses interest in gamergate.

 

 

 

GamerGate is about ethics in game journalism - this may be the only reason *some* GGers joined. 

 

From what I understand it's why *most* joined, and it's the only cause that justifies the term 'gamergate'. If gaming journalism isn't the point of gamergate; don't you think it's a misleading term? 

 

 

 I fight for ethics and professionalism in the media (ALL media) too, but to me personally, the main fight is against SJW's.

The game journos are just the fist fight. Once they are taken care off, we can move onto other targets.

 

Gamergate should NOT have a political agenda. Gamergate is first and foremost a consumer revolt. This isn't about politics, or social engineering. This is about corrupt gaming journalism, and how gamers are being mistreated by these websites. If fighting SJWs is your goal; go ahead and start a movement against them rather than join a consumer revolt about journalistic ethics.

 

Also, if gamergate even does have a battle after we win this fight; cleaning up mainstream journalism would be a better net step than going after SJWs some more.

 

 

Good post Namutree, you make your posts in a very convincing and reasonable way. I admire that character trait

 

I am just surprised you are still part of GG as its already crossed that line you stated where you said "The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalists "

 

There are many examples of this from certain members of GG

 

Its odd you can't seem to see it ?

 

So far no website has been boycotted for having SJW sympathies. If any ever do, or if the anti-SJW elements get out of hand; I'm out. So far though; people like Trashman are a small minority.

 

So I don't think GG has crossed that line, or is even headed in that direction. I feel once we win this first fight; SJWs will be off our radar, and people like Trashman will need to find another bandwagon to jump on. Maybe they'll find a movement about father's rights and try to turn that into an anti-SJW crusade.

[Meshugger]

 

 

12 major sites declared that there is a gamer culture, that it is dead, that everyone disagreeing is a white, womanhating neckbeard, and there is no debate to be had.

 

 

Except that didn't actually happen.

 

 

From the very same link, the Gamasutra article:

 

 

"These obtuse ****slingers, these wailing hyper-consumers, these childish internet-arguers -- they are not my audience. They don’t have to be yours. There is no ‘side’ to be on, there is no ‘debate’ to be had."

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

 

Part of the reason journos and media are corrupt is because they got inflitrated by SJW's.

 

The fact that they are SJWs is not important. The corruption is the problem, and any group is capable of being corrupt. We've already made post discussing the christian game sites, and how we approve of their methods. This situation could easily be the reverse; where zealous christian journalists were the corrupt ones and it was the SJW game sites that are the admirable model.

 

 

 

So Brianna, Anita and Zoe - they have impacted us by crying "mysogony" and spinning their narrative. A narrative the media was too quick to jump on to.

 

The 3 are a symptom of a problem, and technically small fish. But make no mistake in thinking we're just fighting against game journos. Even if we were to win, the SJW's won't stop attacking us.

 

The 3? What are they; some kind of super villains in a western fantasy? These three are just anti-gamergate critics. Their only importance is what you give them. If we win; they can attack us all they want; after all, we will have won. The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalism; is the day I (and anyone reasonable) loses interest in gamergate.

 

 

 

GamerGate is about ethics in game journalism - this may be the only reason *some* GGers joined. 

 

From what I understand it's why *most* joined, and it's the only cause that justifies the term 'gamergate'. If gaming journalism isn't the point of gamergate; don't you think it's a misleading term? 

 

 

 I fight for ethics and professionalism in the media (ALL media) too, but to me personally, the main fight is against SJW's.

The game journos are just the fist fight. Once they are taken care off, we can move onto other targets.

 

Gamergate should NOT have a political agenda. Gamergate is first and foremost a consumer revolt. This isn't about politics, or social engineering. This is about corrupt gaming journalism, and how gamers are being mistreated by these websites. If fighting SJWs is your goal; go ahead and start a movement against them rather than join a consumer revolt about journalistic ethics.

 

Also, if gamergate even does have a battle after we win this fight; cleaning up mainstream journalism would be a better net step than going after SJWs some more.

 

 

Good post Namutree, you make your posts in a very convincing and reasonable way. I admire that character trait

 

I am just surprised you are still part of GG as its already crossed that line you stated where you said "The day gamergate is about anything but corrupt journalists "

 

There are many examples of this from certain members of GG

 

Its odd you can't seem to see it ?

 

So far no website has been boycotted for having SJW sympathies. If any ever do, or if the anti-SJW elements get out of hand; I'm out. So far though; people like Trashman are a small minority.

 

So I don't think GG has crossed that line, or is even headed in that direction. I feel once we win this first fight; SJWs will be off our radar, and people like Trashman will need to find another bandwagon to jump on. Maybe they'll find a movement about father's rights and try to turn that into an anti-SJW crusade.

 

 

Good points but there is already a concerted effort from some at GG to close down certain websites, like Gamasutra and RPS, by getting companies to stop advertising on them. We already saw Intel pull from Gamasutra. Personally I don't think  this type of belligerent campaign will amount to much but you can't deny this is direct targeting of SJ friendly websites?

[Meshugger]

@ Meshugger:  Waah, they said mean things about me!  They should be fired for hurting my feelings!

 

Of course unprofessional conduct against their consumers should be punished and they should be fired. No other industry allows this childish behaviour. 

[Namutree]

 

 

Good points but there is already a concerted effort from some at GG to close down certain websites, like Gamasutra and RPS, by getting companies to stop advertising on them. We already saw Intel pull from Gamasutra. Personally I don't think  this type of belligerent campaign will amount to much but you can't deny this is direct targeting of SJ friendly websites?

 

Gamesutra has been very poor to us. Please read Meshugger's post above. This isn't because they're SJWs; it's because they're jerks. So... Yeah, boycott them. I don't care about Anita/Wu/Zoe because they aren't supposed to represent our interest, and they aren't journalists. Gamesutra is game website; I expect they will treat their own consumer base with respect.

 

They don't.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Namutree

[Blarghagh]

@ TrueNeutral:  Well, from what I've read of your contribution to these threads, you've got a better reason than most to care intently about the quality and honesty of games journalism-- it affects your livelihood and that of the folks you work and associate with.  And the point about reviews and critiques is solid-- games journalism has very low standards, because it is not especially attractive to folks in terms of either money or prestige.  But from the point of view of an ordinary consumer, if you take folks at their word and assume that this is only about games journalism ethics, the emotional intensity of their complaints take on

.  I don't doubt that such folks exist, but one can understand how opponents and mass media folks covering the controversy have concluded that most of the vocal supporters are at least a little influenced by stuff beyond media ethics.

 

Point is conceded, GamerGate has a major PR problem in that there are some very vocal idiots involved. I don't believe the majority of GG is like that, however and I also believe that a lot of this has to with the fact that those vocal idiots are consistently favored when the media discusses it over the people who actually have legitimate bones to pick and I'm pretty sure that's a strategic ploy to keep the focus on them so nobody has to deal with possibly industry shifting changes. It's pretty self-fullfilling to call the idiots the most vocal when journalists are the ones giving them a voice. Thankfully, this has started to change slowly with voices like John Bain (Total Biscuit) and Erik Kain and even Jennie Bharaj (even though she's obviously inexperienced at interviews) getting into the spotlight to actually discuss those things. I have huge respect for David Pakman and his show over this because his show is incredibly progressive and yet he had no problem looking at GGs perspective.

 

I've pointed this out before, but if what happened really is that misogynist jerks really just made outlandish stuff up and thousands upon thousands of people actually bought into that, then those people must have already felt very alienated and distrustful towards game journalists and it is in their best interest to adress that. Engage those people, listen to what they have to say and do your best to convince them otherwise. Continually acknowledging trolls while ignoring them is only going to make you look more guilty. Especially when doing it means marginalising and downplaying millions of voices, many of whom are minorities (I don't believe for a second that more than a tiny fraction of #NotYourShield is bots or that they are just stupid people who internalized discrimination) and many of whom are good people who just want things to get better and are completely willing to put their money where their mouth is by donating to charities and women game jams like TFYC. It takes either a worldview so cynical that I'm not comfortable even thinking about or an ulterior motive to do so.

 

Just my two cents. That video was hilarious, by the way.

 

 

I decided to venture into this thread a little today against my better judgement and was delighted by what I saw. Trashman talking about fighting against imaginary monsters.

 

And then I remembered something, I have a fun little plugin installed.

Even if we were to win, the skeleton's won't stop attacking us.

Guess what it does?

 

Even when I realized this, my interpretation of this angle of the debate is unchanged. Tilting at windmills.

 

 

What does it do? I don't know it.

 

EDIT: What is wrong with me today? I am like some kind of typo machine.

Edited November 4, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

https://openstandard.mozilla.org/yes-gamergate-is-everyones-issue/

 

Nothing new really, but nice to see Young getting exposure outside of Techraptor.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

Two weeks ago, video game critic King of Pol was sent a kitchen knife in the mail with a note instructing him to “please kill yourself.” Just four days later, a fire was reported at his house, sending a team of fire fighters to intimidate the Internet figure. King of Pol had his information previously leaked onto the Internet, allowing for such attacks to occur, frequently and anonymously.

 

Wow, did that really happen? I didn't even hear about this one.

[Meshugger]

 

Two weeks ago, video game critic King of Pol was sent a kitchen knife in the mail with a note instructing him to “please kill yourself.” Just four days later, a fire was reported at his house, sending a team of fire fighters to intimidate the Internet figure. King of Pol had his information previously leaked onto the Internet, allowing for such attacks to occur, frequently and anonymously.

 

Wow, did that really happen? I didn't even hear about this one.

 

 

Yup. Where's his TV-spot?

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

Two weeks ago, video game critic King of Pol was sent a kitchen knife in the mail with a note instructing him to “please kill yourself.” Just four days later, a fire was reported at his house, sending a team of fire fighters to intimidate the Internet figure. King of Pol had his information previously leaked onto the Internet, allowing for such attacks to occur, frequently and anonymously.

 

Wow, did that really happen? I didn't even hear about this one.

 

Yup. Where's his TV-spot?

Between a Kardashian selfie and some rich people telling the poor what to do.

 

And yes, KoP was sent a knife and had the fire department called to his residence due to a claim of him being suicidal.

[Malcador]

What does it do? I don't know it.

 

EDIT: What is wrong with me today? I am like some kind of typo machine.

Replaces SJW with Skeleton. Some sort of incredibly passive aggressive extension for browsers - used for other things I imagine.

[Blarghagh]

 

 

 

Two weeks ago, video game critic King of Pol was sent a kitchen knife in the mail with a note instructing him to “please kill yourself.” Just four days later, a fire was reported at his house, sending a team of fire fighters to intimidate the Internet figure. King of Pol had his information previously leaked onto the Internet, allowing for such attacks to occur, frequently and anonymously.

 

Wow, did that really happen? I didn't even hear about this one.

 

Yup. Where's his TV-spot?

Between a Kardashian selfie and some rich people telling the poor what to do.

 

And yes, KoP was sent a knife and had the fire department called to his residence due to a claim of him being suicidal.

 

 

See, it's things like this that make it a lot harder to denounce the harassment coming from GG because the other side is just as bad, if not worse. It's like harassment is the goddamn status quo and that pisses me the hell off.

 

 

What does it do? I don't know it.

 

EDIT: What is wrong with me today? I am like some kind of typo machine.

Replaces SJW with Skeleton. Some sort of incredibly passive aggressive extension for browsers - used for other things I imagine.

 

 

Oh haha! Neat. What plugin is it? I want it.

[Meshugger]

It's not harrasment if you're rightous about it.

 

That's usually the rationalization that i hear.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

Two weeks ago, video game critic King of Pol was sent a kitchen knife in the mail with a note instructing him to “please kill yourself.” Just four days later, a fire was reported at his house, sending a team of fire fighters to intimidate the Internet figure. King of Pol had his information previously leaked onto the Internet, allowing for such attacks to occur, frequently and anonymously.

 

 

Wow, did that really happen? I didn't even hear about this one.

 

Yup. Where's his TV-spot?

Between a Kardashian selfie and some rich people telling the poor what to do.

And yes, KoP was sent a knife and had the fire department called to his residence due to a claim of him being suicidal.

 

See, it's things like this that make it a lot harder to denounce the harassment coming from GG because the other side is just as bad, if not worse. It's like harassment is the goddamn status quo and that pisses me the hell off.

I have no problem denouncing harassment wherever I see it, and I will continue to do so regardless of who is doing the harassing or who the victim is. If those on the pro-corruption side are willing to look the other way when the harassment is from one of their own or the victim is someone they dislike, I think that shows a lot about their character.

[Malcador]

I expected better of you, TrueNeutral, but - https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/sjw-to-skeleton/kckodmjikeoncekpplppkkcjolofmacc?hl=en

 

Is what I think it is, for Chrome anyway.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/video-games/gamergate-interviews/12400-Daniel-Vavra-GamerGate-Interview

 

Daniel Varva again.