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Radical to-the-bone changes in combat

combat ie games tactics rpg

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18 replies to this topic

#1
constantine

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Combat is too complicated to be fixed and is the weakest part in a game where it should be its strength.


-Suggestions:

1.bring back the IE 'invisible' combat round. Limit attacks/spellcasting on that basis. Since there is a new faction in Dexterity, have the ability score influence the above somehow, eitherwise change DEX's function (it's pretty useless as it is now anyway).

2.Attack resolution- damage dealt must both be simplified. Current mechanics are too complicated for no reason other than causing trouble.
You must come closer to IE (D&Dish) terms. The simpler it is, the better to 'control' combat as a developer- the better to control, the easier to craft interesting encounters/ manage difficulty/ create balance to classes-weapons.

3.Work on Engagement.
Many believe the mechanic must be dropped altogether, I am not among them.
If it is to stay, serious reworking must be done, like toning down how punishing disengagement hits are and limiting the rad-area at which those hits occur.


Please share thoughts.
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#2
Ieo

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Shouldn't this be in the backer beta forums?

#3
constantine

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Why ?

#4
Mr. Magniloquent

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Melee combat is actually where PoE gets things right. The concepts are all solid, fixing them is just a matter of balance and degree. Some weapon and armor statistics are overdone in my opinion, and DT vs DR most certainly causes problems--but again, it's a balance issue. That's all rather minor in the grand scheme of things.

 

Where there seems to be a conflict is in deciding how lethal combat should be. The mechanics suggest a lethal and simulationist bent, but at the same time ad hoc attempts to allow a high frequency of said lethal combat. It's a bit of a contradiction. The Health/Endurance mechanic is an obvious attempt to bridge that gap, but I'm not sure it can be. The intricacy of the rules are only further complicated by the deliberate absence of curative magic. While I understand the choice, it only makes balancing all the more complex.

 

Attack resolution is probably the place to start in fixing that. The introduction of grazing hits has proven to be something of an ordeal. I don't think it should be removed, but it certainly isn't doing Obsidian any design favors.


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#5
Sensuki

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Got all this covered in my next thread about combat (although I am leaving Melee Engagement until later because if I add that in various people will complain).

Haven't worked out exactly what to do about action speed yet, but I'll have a think about it. The formulas probably need a slight tweak.



#6
constantine

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Got all this covered in my next thread about combat (although I am leaving Melee Engagement until later because if I add that in various people will complain).

Haven't worked out exactly what to do about action speed yet, but I'll have a think about it. The formulas probably need a slight tweak.


I look forward to your work & hope that you try to remove stuff rather than trying to make it all work as it is now.

I really hope you give engagement one more chance & try to make it work. I believe that when the mechanic works correct & after some tweaking, it will introduce a good strategy aspect in combat.
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#7
Sensuki

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PM'd you the list, btw.

Engagement is a flawed system 8) There are better ways to handle character stickiness.

Edited by Sensuki, 29 October 2014 - 09:30 AM.


#8
Sir Newbie

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PM'd you the list, btw.

Engagement is a flawed system 8) There are better ways to handle character stickiness.

What better ways ? I'm all eyes (it's a genuine question and concern). I really want to know more about sticky mechanics (i am still traumatized by a grouilleux who bypassed 4 warriors of mine to kill my weakened spell-less wizard in BG1) !


Edited by Sir Newbie, 29 October 2014 - 01:19 PM.


#9
constantine

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PM'd you the list, btw.

Engagement is a flawed system 8) There are better ways to handle character stickiness.

I ve read the ideas you re working on and I liked them, they really sound like they can fix the chaos that is combat as of now. However, like Sir Newbie, I too would like to see your thoughts on engagement, since there is no mention of it.

The thing about attribute system, I believe they are low priority concern right now, first of we need a solid combat system.

Edited by constantine, 29 October 2014 - 02:12 PM.


#10
Sensuki

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Yeah pretty much. I still need to have a think about Action Speed as well.

I think Engagement should be removed and class 'stickiness' should be handled through abilities.

One example - The Paladin could have an aura that slowed enemy movement speed in a small AoE by a certain percentage (let's say 30%), this would allow you to chase any character if they were running away and perform hits on them while they are moving, etc.

Fighters could cause the hobbled effect for short duration (2-3 secs) on Interrupts or something.

Those are just really rough off the top of my head examples, but you shouldn't get a "free" attack against units that decided to move away from you in real-time games.

Edited by Sensuki, 29 October 2014 - 02:23 PM.

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#11
constantine

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Interesting thought.

I like engagement, however I don t think it should be any more punishing that D&D's Attack of Opportunity.

In the attempt to remove the cheesy tactics of the IE games, Josh & team have overdone it, while all that is required is smart enemy AI.

#12
Lephys

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I hate the invisible combat round, because it's an arbitrary mishmash of turn-based representation and real-time representation. You can move around as much as you want in 3 seconds, but all actions suddenly occur on a 3-second metronome tick. Ugh...

Sure, PnP D&D's rounds were representative of 3-second intervals, methinks (at least in some version... I'm not familiar with all of them). But, everything was still broken up into turns. Imagine if you decided what you wanted to do -- "I want to cast Fireball here" -- and the DM was like "Okay, everyone just all moved to different places. NOW THE ROUND BEGINS! Congrats. You just cast fireball at an empty spot on the ground."

Double-ugh. It's the worst of both worlds. You can't react to things real-time, because you have to react to 3-second intervals of actions, and you can't really take your time like in turn-based, because everyone's jogging around constantly, and everyone goes all at once.
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#13
constantine

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Those are just really rough off the top of my head examples, but you shouldn't get a "free" attack against units that decided to move away from you in real-time games.


I understand the concern. One can get mauled to the death by disengagement attacks, when such attacks would occur once per round in a different kind of game.

I m up for it however, after some tweaking. Like when disengagement atk replaces the normal melee atk, all the while reseting the wait time between attacks.

One cannot get infinite free atks, and when they do, those atks should replace his normal atk rate, in the least.

Just a quick thought.

#14
Flayeriv

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For those of us not in the Beta, any chance for links so I can observe more on what you guys have discussed?



#15
constantine

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You can check out one of many Sensuki's videos in the Backer Discussion forum section.

#16
Sensuki

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I have lots of PE vids on my youtube channel - https://www.youtube....qkygJxzwo7UC-gQ

#17
Yonjuro

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One example - The Paladin could have an aura that slowed enemy movement speed in a small AoE by a certain percentage (let's say 30%), this would allow you to chase any character if they were running away and perform hits on them while they are moving, etc.

Fighters could cause the hobbled effect for short duration (2-3 secs) on Interrupts or something.

 

 These are good ideas. In the latter case, it could be a reason to build a low damage high action speed fighter to hold enemies by generating more interrupts (assuming that attributes were reworked to support the idea). This is the kind of thing that can make more builds viable (and also different from each other).



#18
archangel979

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Yes, they should copy D&D4e ideas on holding enemy at bay with melee characters, it is well suited for cRPG games (and reason why it didn't work as well in PnP).

#19
Falkentyne

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After watching the videos, yea I can see the problem with disengagement in real time.  Since In turn based games, everyone does their attack in turn, but real time/phase based games exploit a mechanic that was designed specifically for turns, so yeah please, Obsidian, remove disengagement1







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