Sensuki vs Medreth [Youtube Series]

[Sensuki]

Oh that spell actually lasts longer than a single attack does it? Going to have to try

 

And yeah the change to Intellect has made it a trashbag Attribute.

 

Durations and AoE / Deflection and Concentration would be better combos tbh, which I believe there is good evidence of.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Sensuki

[Hiro Protagonist II]

I've found since the beta released, there's always been two dumpable stats on ranged characters. Nothing will ever change.

[Sensuki]

I think if the attributes gave more / took more away per point then dumping them wouldn't be as good, but yeah the two defensive stats (in this version - Int and Con) will most likely always be dumpable on ranged units.

[aeonsim]

Eldritch Aim, is pretty nice you can usually get a couple of spells off after it.

 

I'm also finding "Fetid Caress" (lvl2 Wizard) to be pretty effective it doesn't have a massive AoE but you can usually catch 2-3 enemies (and the poor fighters :-D) with it and the combination of Paralysed and Sickened (big -ve to all defences and most attributes) makes them an easy target for anyone and anything.

The wiki claims -40 for Def, Ref & -100 dex (P) and -20 Wil, Fort & -1 all Ats (S) though I think it may be a little higher in the current build (not certain though).

[Fiebras]

There a lot of neat ablities that several classes have that the default BB party doesnt take into account, like the wizard´s Expose Vulnerabilities.

 

So whats the quickest way to get loads of gold to completely restructure the party?

Id like to try a party that actually takes into account the new skill system to see what I can cook up.

[Sensuki]

There is a mod floating around that makes recruiting adventurers free and enables the party manager, I think mutonizer made it. However it would not work with the latest patch, someone would need to port it across (I don't think it would be very difficult either).

[archangel979]

Is it too late to change the game into turn based one? :D :D

It seems like less work than fixing this mess.

Edited October 30, 2014 by archangel979

[Fiebras]

There is a mod floating around that makes recruiting adventurers free and enables the party manager, I think mutonizer made it. However it would not work with the latest patch, someone would need to port it across (I don't think it would be very difficult either).

 

Theres probably an easy way to tinker with the prices that doesnt require the mod, but Im bad with codes so Id probably just end up breaking the game.

[redneckdevil]

Would like u to try using slowmode and speedup in a video and see how different it is. I know ur testing on "default" but would like to see a video using the other modes, that way i could see side by side the difference in how combat feels.

[Gairnulf]

I killed off Medreth's gang today, from my second attempt ever. Playing on Normal difficulty, my character is a human rogue (meadowlands I think the culture's name was), dual wielding daggers. I ganged up on Medreth first, then let the Fighter keep the monk, ranger and the third thug engaged, while I was using the BB Rogue and my own character to kill the Boar (which I realize was a mistake) with the wizard and priest flinging offensive spells and buffs. Eventually I lost the BB Rogue and the BB Priest had to get into the melee as a result. By that time there was just one of the BB Fighter's dance partners left, along with the woman with the arquebus who was shooting at my PC. So I finished her off with the PC and mage, and then everyone ganged up on the last remaining thug.

 

I hadn't yet watched any of Sensuki's videos so it didn't occur to me to use any of the tactics and tricks he shows there. I went with my habits dating from BG - kill the most advanced enemy first, and from DAO - put emphasis on rogues's sneak attacks while the tank tries to tie down as many enemies as possible.

 

I've since cleared the woods before going back to the village to rest my party in the inn, and have the ruined statue and the cave dungeon

left to explore.

 

Strange, that contrary to what people say I find it easier to play v. 333. It's not like I have much experience, I only made two attempts at the beetles in v278 and hadn't played since. I use the slow time feature a lot though, and during the battle with Medreth the combat log was great help for explaining what's going on in the whole chaos.

 

I came up with an idea of how to make combat easier to control without drastic changes to the combat system, just to the UI, but I'll explain that at length tomorrow.

[Namutree]

Is it too late to change the game into turn based one? :D :D

Yes. That said I'll take even a bad RtwP system than a TB system any day. 

[Sensuki]

Strange, that contrary to what people say I find it easier to play v. 333. It's not like I have much experience, I only made two attempts at the beetles in v278 and hadn't played since.

Yeah in v301 they made it way easier. I personally preferred the difficulty level in v278 to v301 and v333, although none are perfect, and each difficulty level had OP stuff - Poison, Deep Wounds, Petrify, that Cystal Shard thing etc

[archangel979]

 

 

Is it too late to change the game into turn based one? :D :D

Yes. That said I'll take even a bad RtwP system than a TB system any day.

I guess you will get your wish than.

[Namutree]

 

 

Is it too late to change the game into turn based one? :D :D

Yes. That said I'll take even a bad RtwP system than a TB system any day.

I guess you will get your wish than.

 

It's not my wish; it's just the lesser of two evils. Not that I think combat in poe will be bad. I think we'll get combat that's decent, but decent is horrible compared to how fantastic IE combat is.

Edited November 1, 2014 by Namutree

[Gairnulf]

 

Strange, that contrary to what people say I find it easier to play v. 333. It's not like I have much experience, I only made two attempts at the beetles in v278 and hadn't played since.

Yeah in v301 they made it way easier. I personally preferred the difficulty level in v278 to v301 and v333, although none are perfect, and each difficulty level had OP stuff - Poison, Deep Wounds, Petrify, that Cystal Shard thing etc

The main thing is that they balance spells, talents, weapons etc. and that the interface is refined, so that the difficulty in combat comes from the enemies's tactics and AI vs the player's tactics and intelligence, and not from having to deal with poor interface design decisions. Once thathas been achieved, anyone can set the difficulty for themselves. Edited November 1, 2014 by Gairnulf

[archangel979]

 

 

 

 

Is it too late to change the game into turn based one? :D :D

Yes. That said I'll take even a bad RtwP system than a TB system any day.

I guess you will get your wish than.

It's not my wish; it's just the lesser of two evils. Not that I think combat in poe will be bad. I think we'll get combat that's decent, but decent is horrible compared to how fantastic IE combat is.

Oh it is. Because on a good day RTwP combat can maybe come close to turn based.

[Nonek]

As somebody whom has not yet played the beta (rather busy,) I have to admit that just watching Sensuki and others videos, the game does seem more suited to a turn based system. Especially with the use of so many skills from all the characters on screen. However i've not played it so may be mistaken.

[Namutree]

As somebody whom has not yet played the beta (rather busy,) I have to admit that just watching Sensuki and others videos, the game does seem more suited to a turn based system. Especially with the use of so many skills from all the characters on screen. However i've not played it so may be mistaken.

You're not mistaken. Josh has already said that he wanted to make a TB system, and it shows. The problem is that the turn based elements in poe don't fit well in a RtwP system.

 

Although being a turn based system would be bad as well, since turn based systems are nearly always a combination of very tactically limited and REALLY boring...

[Nonek]

Ah I see, thank you for the information.

 

Personally however I haven't found turn based combat systems to be limited or boring, in fact just the opposite, the sense of anticipation on the enemies turn and waiting for ones tactics to succeed or fail has always thrilled me. Even in pen and paper when one is waiting on the dice throw to delight or damn, there was always a great excitement to the move and counter move of turn based combat. I still hold TOEE and JA2 to be some of the finest combat systems i've ever experienced.

 

This is not to denigrate the IE games RTWP system however, I relished the challenges of both the IWD's and BG2's spell intensive battles, the optimum use of ones pawns and selection of casting choices, and look forward to similar challenges in Poe.

[prodigydancer]

Personally however I haven't found turn based combat systems to be limited or boring,

Almost all implementations of TB do limit player's micromanagement choices because combat sequence during every turn is governed by initiative. This is particularly bad for party based games with cross-class combos - you may have to fine tune every character's stats towards a specific initiative value. And if initiative is (partially) random it's even worse.

 

In sci-fi games TB combat also tends to favor camping - basically taking a favorable pre-fight position and abusing choke points. Which brings us to the boring part. Sniping from cover and relying on "ambush" mechanics (if available) is hardly exciting.

 

In fantasy games TB encourages CC spam and substituting summons for tanks.

Edited November 1, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

No it doesn't :/ Turn-based combat is actually very good with quite a few units, almost always better actually. Knights of the Chalice doesn't promote camping  , nor does The Banner Saga, however Expeditions: Conquistador does.

 

It's mostly because AP is usually shared between movement and attacks/other actions, so in many cases it's better to sit and wait and force the enemy to come to you in primarily ranged based turn-based games. 

[prodigydancer]

The Banner Saga

Well, it's hardly an example of a regular turn-based game. The Banner Saga combat system is unique and the game's genre is closer to pure tactics than to classic RPG.

 

I agree, however, that AP are another limiting factor. Also camping works both ways. E.g. pursuing a gunner who runs from cover to cover in WL2 is very annoying (early in game when you don't have enough accuracy to ignore cover CtH penalty).

Edited November 1, 2014 by prodigydancer

[Sensuki]

Underrail splits AP into movement and action points - I think that's a much better way of doing things.

 

http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=9657

Edited November 1, 2014 by Sensuki

[prodigydancer]

Underrail splits AP into movement and action points - I think that's a much better way of doing things.

And what if I don't want a character to move?

 

You see, RTwP is about freedom and TB is about limitations. Of course one may argue that those limitations are in fact stricter rules that help with streamlining and balancing combat. But denying that RTwP allows more micromanagement freedom is an exercise in futility.

[Sensuki]

I like both TB and RTwP, I don't think one is better than the other. Both combat systems can be good or ****ing terrible.