Will spells in this game retain the same power and impact that they had in BG and BGII?

[Fubby]

Just found this game, and BG1 is my absolute favorite game of all time, so I am pretty happy right now.

 

But I was wondering, will the spells be as powerful as they were in the BG series? My absolute favorite thing about the bg series was how powerful the spells were, and trying to find the best strategy with those spells. The diversity and power of all the spells gives the game so much combat diversity, there are just so many options. For instance like when you first get fireball in BG1. It just obliterates everything. I was just wondering if this game would have a similar idea, where there are huge arsenals of very powerful spells to choose from to make combat diverse. And of course since your enemies have the exact same aresenal of spells, you have to try to outsmart the enemy as opposed to just brute forcing them.

 

Sorry that this post was kind of just talking about BG, but I have been hoping for years that another game would come along like the series, especially because of the spell system. I think the beta testers have access to the game, so I was wondering if anyone would be able to compare the spell systems or anything. No matter the answer I will almost certainly preorder the game, but a similar spell system would essentially make this my dream game.

 

 

[Gorionsson]

I'll give you a really short answer:

 

No. Wizards are considerably weaker compared to the Baldurs Gate series.

Some of the other classes (like druid or cipher) have overpowered abilities, but this will probably be balanced out i future beta versions.

I believe obsidian have stated that they wanted magic to be less OP than in the IE games.

Poe is also a low to mid-level adventure, so BG2 levels of magic epicness is not to be expected.  

Edited October 26, 2014 by Gorionsson

[Fubby]

Damn, kind of a shame imo. I really enjoyed the power of mages, and while I admit it was somewhat excessive sometimes (I remeber many situations where sending in my mage alone did better than the whole party), it really made me feel like I was a powerful party in a world full of people with similar power, and clashing with that was really fun. I also enjoyed the overpowered spells and combos. Trying to find the most insane and broken strategies was also a lot of fun the the BG series.

 

But hey, maybe someone will mod the game to make the spell system equally powerful as it was in BG. It was just so much fun having godlike mages clashing.

[anameforobsidian]

Eh.  I would have agreed with you before I did my sword coast stratagems playthrough.  It works really well for BG1, but mage fights that take 5 to 10 minutes of real time because mages' entire spellbooks are protections are not fun.  Nor is being needled to death with melf's minute meteors.

[Gorionsson]

Well, what wizards can do in Poe on higher levels, we just don't know yet.

 

However, I always thought the power level of most creatures in the Baldur's gate setting was rather silly.

Just like in fantasy literature, I prefer a low magic world,- not a high epic one. One of the few things about those games that I didn't like.

 

Also, crowd control magic was really useful in the IE games, and you had an array of interesting situational spells.

This is very different in Poe. At least so far in the beta. 

 

Oh, and you probably won't find a spell that works like an "I win" button.

Edited October 26, 2014 by Gorionsson

[Hiro Protagonist II]

Wizards are kind of meh. Ciphers and Druids are really good and better than Wizards imo. 

[Fubby]

Will the spells still be complex and diverse at least? The variety was another thing I loved about the games, even if it was unbalanced, it was fun to try new stuff. 

 

Also, have the beta testers seen the whole spellbook? Perhaps mags get real firepower later in the game? Idk, quite frankly arcane magic was my favorite thing about the BG series. I really hope this game retains at least some of it.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Will the spells still be complex and diverse at least? The variety was another thing I loved about the games, even if it was unbalanced, it was fun to try new stuff. 

 

No, they shall not. The most complex spells you will likely see for the wizard class are those questionably conceived spells where the wizard changes places with an enemy.

 

Also, have the beta testers seen the whole spellbook? Perhaps mags get real firepower later in the game? Idk, quite frankly arcane magic was my favorite thing about the BG series. I really hope this game retains at least some of it.

 

Not likely. Mr. Sawyer resents what makes D&D wizards unique and interesting. Thus, he is resolved to make PoE wizards mechanically MMO-esque in spell variety.

 

But hey, maybe someone will mod the game to make the spell system equally powerful as it was in BG. It was just so much fun having godlike mages clashing.

 

Count on it. It will likely be one of the first major mods created after release.

[Gfted1]

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

[Captain Shrek]

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

I have a feeling that they don't scale because the higher level spells are just the scaled spells of lower level. Need to check though. 

[Gfted1]

 

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

I have a feeling that they don't scale because the higher level spells are just the scaled spells of lower level. Need to check though. 

 

 

I believe they are, but why not scale them instead of making a new spell / name? I was wondering if anyone knew why the devs took that route.

[Mr. Magniloquent]

 

 

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

I have a feeling that they don't scale because the higher level spells are just the scaled spells of lower level. Need to check though. 

 

 

I believe they are, but why not scale them instead of making a new spell / name? I was wondering if anyone knew why the devs took that route.

 

 

All very good questions. Nobody really knows. I thought is that since they intended spells to graduate to per encounter/at will frequency, that spells did not need scaling. That's just me reaching for an answer though. Not scaling spells sure increases their work-load and dilutes the identity of spells. Lots of redundancy pushing out resources that could have made a more robust and unique selection. Games like the 13th Age and D&D 5th edition have only one spell, but that it scales in power according to the level of the spell slot used to memorize it. Example: Lvl 1 Charm behaves as an ordinary level 1 Charm. Charm memorized in a level 9 slot functions as Mass Dominate Monster, but is referred to as a lvl 9 Charm.

 

That approach, along with a spell point system could really save PoE spell casting. I was working on a proposal for these very things. I've created a meticulous excel file chalk full of pivot tables for on-the-fly balancing, I just haven't had the time to draft up the actual proposal piece yet. Adulthood and all of that. I digress. Spell points and spell scaling. PoE needs them. The good news is, a functioning spell point system already exists--they just need to get more work out of it!

[Gfted1]

I thought is that since they intended spells to graduate to per encounter/at will frequency, that spells did not need scaling.

That's a great point. I hadn't thought of that.

[Fubby]

Well then I guess I will just have to wait for the mods to come. At least it seems like some people agree with me, so hopefully a mod does come. But I guess it will be interesting to try something more new anyways, as ofc this is a new game, not just a reskin of BG.

[anameforobsidian]

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

 

The transition from daily to encounter to at will implicitly means spells scale by level.  Using nine fireballs in an encounter is way more powerful than nine acid arrows or chromatic orbs.

[Flayeriv]

As a non-beta guy it will be interesting to see how magic gets balanced out against other aspects of combat, such as melee, ranged, how it tables against armour, etc.

Is there any chance for a pseudo war-wizard though? One thing I greatly enjoy doing in games (even if it's sub-optimal) is casting buffs and things like 'tenser's transformation' on my wizard then send him wading into melee combat. Yeah, I could make a pure fighter, but a wizard who does this just feels more interesting.

[Jarmo]

I'm hoping the writing of the game reflects whatever the power of wizards is going to be. Or the other way around.

In fantasy games, it seems almost mandatory to have powerful wizards as the movers and shakers of kingdoms.

 

If the gameplay suggests high level wizards are no more and possibly less powerful than high level any other class,

there's a possibility for a lore vs gameplay evidence conflict I very much dislike.

 

Like Arcanum, portraying firearms as the great change and a new order in the world. While in game, magic very much rules.

Or Fallout 2, New Reno, where the one gang rules by the power of their (actually completely rubbish) laser pistols.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Jarmo

[Gfted1]

 

I never understood why spells don't scale in PoE. Is there a particular reason? In the expansion, will it be called Fireball9000? I really hope so. That will make me lol.

 

The transition from daily to encounter to at will implicitly means spells scale by level.  Using nine fireballs in an encounter is way more powerful than nine acid arrows or chromatic orbs.

 

 

Frequency does not equal spell power. For example a spell that does 5-10 damage at level 2 isn't going to be useful at level 12, no matter how many times I can cast it. Unless Im out of everything else I guess.

[AussieNick]

Well then I guess I will just have to wait for the mods to come. At least it seems like some people agree with me, so hopefully a mod does come. But I guess it will be interesting to try something more new anyways, as ofc this is a new game, not just a reskin of BG.

 

Hopefully Mages won't be too weak, especially considering their abilities are limited per day. I also liked how they were almost your most pivotal party member in BGII (aside from Protection from Magic Weapons....urgh that was a horrible spell that made fighting Mages tedious waiting games).

 

The way I see it they should be the 'glass cannon' kinda class. Able to throw out instakill or high damage AoE's a limited number of times per day, but if they draw aggro they go down pretty easily if they don't have all their short duration wards up.

 

Anyway, there is plenty of time til release day and I still have faith ><

[Flayeriv]

 

Frequency does not equal spell power. For example a spell that does 5-10 damage at level 2 isn't going to be useful at level 12, no matter how many times I can cast it. Unless Im out of everything else I guess

 

Clearly you never used to combine Magic Missile, Alacrity and Time Stop in BG2.

[Silent Winter]

^but there'll be no time-stop in PoE -> That amounted to several MMs at once = more power per shot.

I liked MM because it scaled with level and was insta-cast (pretty much) so it remained useful throughout most of the game (sometimes needing Lower-Resistance first against later enemies)

 

I'll wait and see how PoE's spells play - having level-x fireball for various levels seems boring on paper but when taking into account casts per-day, it might work out well in practice. (I've run out of high-power fireballs but I can still cast mid-power ones)

[Mr. Magniloquent]

Spells should have been organized according to effect, then scaled to level. For example, anything with the Petrification effect would have a minimum spell level of X, but its variables like damage/duration/aoe would scale with character level. In this way, you only have to design a spell once and it always remains useful. This allows you to spend time designing unique, useful, and interesting spells, rather than rehashing higher tiers of the same spell.

 

PoE also has a great deal of spell levels. Designing ten levels of spells across....4 classes would be monumental. Having them all cast from relatively exclusive and narrowly defined roles will be a challenge. Compound that with spell not scaling....and you're looking at a whole lot of Final Fantasy "Firaga III" type junk spells. It's a problem.

[Lephys]

Spells should have been organized according to effect, then scaled to level. For example, anything with the Petrification effect would have a minimum spell level of X, but its variables like damage/duration/aoe would scale with character level. In this way, you only have to design a spell once and it always remains useful. This allows you to spend time designing unique, useful, and interesting spells, rather than rehashing higher tiers of the same spell.

Yeah! I have no qualms with some later-tier Firestorm (for example) spell being "better" overall than Fireball, as long as it does something DIFFERENT from Fireball. I don't want to have to cast "greater fireball," when I could just cast a better fireball. A Warrior doesn't use "Greater Sword Swing." He just gets better with his sword swings. So, from a gameplay standpoint, it's a lot more enjoyable than feeling like you're having to re-acquire the same thing over and over again. The fact that your progress has no effect on your spells makes 'em feel more like grenades than spells.

[Vaeliorin]

Spells should have been organized according to effect, then scaled to level. For example, anything with the Petrification effect would have a minimum spell level of X, but its variables like damage/duration/aoe would scale with character level. In this way, you only have to design a spell once and it always remains useful. This allows you to spend time designing unique, useful, and interesting spells, rather than rehashing higher tiers of the same spell.

 

PoE also has a great deal of spell levels. Designing ten levels of spells across....4 classes would be monumental. Having them all cast from relatively exclusive and narrowly defined roles will be a challenge. Compound that with spell not scaling....and you're looking at a whole lot of Final Fantasy "Firaga III" type junk spells. It's a problem.

The solution is obvious. Remove mages. Swords for everyone!

[Lephys]

I thought the more obvious solution was to just give Mages mana-blades. STILL SWORDS FOR EVERYONE!

Edited October 30, 2014 by Lephys