Journalism and sexism in the games industry

[Blarghagh]

Props to Stephen Totilo for coming to talk to TotalBiscuit.

 

Also, game developer Adrian Chmielarz made an interesting post regarding why he is starting to lean Pro-GamerGate: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sdmj1k

Edited October 30, 2014 by TrueNeutral

[Longknife]

 

”Opposition to sex based oppression and equal rights and/or liberation for the female sex.”

 

You ask for a defining stance of feminism and then dismiss it because feminism ‘has no defined stances’. I’m not sure what you’re expecting here, there’s no high-pope of feminism to decide what feminism is and isn’t.

 

 

 

That's exactly the problem. Because as much as you'd like to believe your definition is universally understood and adhered to by all women, it gets interpreted 20,000 ways and isn't even fully agreed upon, which results in the entire movement effectively being a free ticket to call others misogynistic at this point.

 

Just yesterday McIntosh and that guy that loves Hitler were accusing Sommers - a feminist - of being anti-feminism and pro-misogyny. As I said, it's literally a free ticket to make hysterical claims that pull on people's emotional strings. That needs to stop, and until then, good luck to ANYONE carrying that title asking to be taken seriously.

[Barothmuk]

Because as much as you'd like to believe your definition is universally understood and adhered to by all women, it gets interpreted 20,000 ways and isn't even fully agreed upon.

Can't be certain but I'm pretty sure most if not all would accept the definition I provided.

 

Where they differ is how they identify oppression and the praxis they use to combat it.

 

Just yesterday McIntosh and that guy that loves Hitler were accusing Sommers - a feminist - of being anti-feminism and pro-misogyny.

That's internet discourse for you.

[Blarghagh]

I'm going to agree with Barothmuk that feminism can't be completely defined by radicals. I think it's dishonest to say so while railing against people completely defining GamerGate by radicals. But at the same time, these GamerGaters have seriously damaged the movement in the eyes of the public as the radical feminists have. Ironically, they're the same thing. I think most if not all GamerGaters would accept this definition:

 

 

What definition people accept does not often correlate with the perception of them, or even how they act.

[Longknife]

I'm going to agree with Barothmuk that feminism can't be completely defined by radicals. I think it's dishonest to say so while railing against people completely defining GamerGate by radicals. But at the same time, these GamerGaters have seriously damaged the movement in the eyes of the public as the radical feminists have.

 

I think you've completely missed my point.

 

I'm saying that if feminism as a collective would merely come forward and define itself and the terms it's so fond of, it would be very very very easy to seperate themselves from the radicals they wish not to be associated with. They could point at their own doctrine and easily explain how these radicals breach it and therefore don't represent them, but this doesn't happen. Feminism is decades old, and yet it's never done this, with various branches and beliefs springing up under it, but with every single one of them all preferring to make the term "feminism" their own. At this point it feels like a very petty and childish battle over a shiny title they all seem to want, and I question why they don't either come together to define it properly (and inadvertently weed out radicals from using the name by doing so) or just walk out and coin a new term for themselves unpolluted by radicals.

 

 

You may draw a parallel between that and GamerGate and how some have asked GamerGate to change its hashtag to denounce the harassers. But GamerGate actively HAS denounced it's harassers and radicals. There's evidence of this in multitudes of ways. Comparatively, Sommers and Anita denounce each other, but there is no feminist "hub" that throws it's backing behind one or the other, so one does not seem more valid than the other.

 

And through it all, while sensible people can recognize that no, you don't define a group by its radicals, the fact of the matter is that the name "feminism" is currently being dragged through the mud....and this is not the first time. There's a reason Emma Watson mentioned that she's noticing women are becoming ashamed to be known as feminists. This is again yet another side effect of feminism not properly defining itself and all its terms: it allows the radicals to freely trash the name by making it their own.

 

Finally, he wishes to call me ignorant of feminism so this is my fault. It is not my duty to educate myself on YOUR ideologies and YOUR way of thinking. My tone might be different if, for example, let's say David Pakman interviewed Sarkeesian and asked what feminism means to her and I blatantly skipped that video, but this is not the case. None of them have made an attempt to teach, only use the name as a convenient shield and weapon. Again, this is what separates GamerGate from the feminist side. And no, I would not consider feminist frequency to be a lesson in feminism both because it can be blatantly misleading and dishonest, and because while it sometimes does s fantastic job of teaching real feminism tropes, it doesn't do anything to try and explain the perceived meaning behind them. It falls flat as "this is the smurfette principle. It exists BECUZ PATRIARCHY." Ya ok. Don't get me wrong you can draw your own conclusions from such things....but that's kind of the problem with feminism: everyone seems to be drawing their own conclusions and opinions, all under the guise of the same cause, and typically with the end result of hysterics and smear campaigns.

[Nonek]

 

Props to Stephen Totilo for coming to talk to TotalBiscuit.

 

 

Personally I think Mr Biscuit let the gentleman off very lightly on the subject of ethics, Mr Totilo talked a good game, but both of the reporters mentioned only declared their conflcits of interest after the fact. This is clearly a breach of ethics and any good editor should see it as his duty to judge such knowing omissions in a draconian manner, whereas Mr Totilo is content to do nothing at all, not even have the reporters who he admits breached ethics, issue an apology.

 

All together I found that interview was a classic demonstration of double talk and evasion, where the editor gives his reporters carte blanche to even sleep with their subject matter, but not be judged impartial or tainted at all. A journalist of course can have friends, but they must not include anyone in his professional sphere, ones private life must be seperated, this is not difficult or unknown.

[Fighter]

Kotaku's breaches of ethics warrant more than just adding in disclosure all quiet like. In the current environment their way of handling it is disrespectful.

[Blarghagh]

While I agree that he gets off lightly and I seriously disagree with some of the things he does, he does at least try to defend his practices without, for the most part, attacking anyone else and he's put himself available for discussion. As one of the few who has been willing to do so, he's earned a certain amount of respect. He's also incredibly clear on that he doesn't want some of these things that GamerGate is against to happen again, such as when GamerGate says "disclose if you're donating to a patreon", he takes it further with "if it breaks trust, we're not going to do it at all anymore".

 

He's not giving in to demands, but he's made concessions and engaging in dialogue when the majority of the journalists, editors and outlets involved have had radio silence other than "nuh uh, if you criticize me at all you're a misogynist". This is a start. The fact that this dialogue is taking place and TotalBiscuit decided to let him say his piece and did not turn it into a hit piece is something that I respect, even if some of the opinions and actions are things I do not.

 

I think the major problem in this debate is that it's been such an enormous cluster**** of demonisation and dehumanisation and I think this is a step in the right direction when it comes to trying to fix it and even though this was a fairly defensive showing of Mr. Totilo, at least he showed.

[Fighter]

Fair enough. The fact he came out to talk is a big plus already.

[Malcador]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IosGtGjUxvQ

[Fighter]

No surprise there. It's only women who get attacked. Only feminists ever get a voice. But everything is patriarchy, logical yeah...

[Nonek]

While I agree that he gets off lightly and I seriously disagree with some of the things he does, he does at least try to defend his practices without, for the most part, attacking anyone else and he's put himself available for discussion. As one of the few who has been willing to do so, he's earned a certain amount of respect. He's also incredibly clear on that he doesn't want some of these things that GamerGate is against to happen again, such as when GamerGate says "disclose if you're donating to a patreon", he takes it further with "if it breaks trust, we're not going to do it at all anymore".

 

He's not giving in to demands, but he's made concessions and engaging in dialogue when the majority of the journalists, editors and outlets involved have had radio silence other than "nuh uh, if you criticize me at all you're a misogynist". This is a start. The fact that this dialogue is taking place and TotalBiscuit decided to let him say his piece and did not turn it into a hit piece is something that I respect, even if some of the opinions and actions are things I do not.

 

I think the major problem in this debate is that it's been such an enormous cluster**** of demonisation and dehumanisation and I think this is a step in the right direction when it comes to trying to fix it and even though this was a fairly defensive showing of Mr. Totilo, at least he showed.

 

I agree with most of your points but have to say that some of the aforementioned demonisation and dehumanisation is fairly much unfixable, the shows of utter contempt and hatred cannot really be forgotten, especially when they're directed at ones audience whom have in reality given the publications existence in the first place. For such people as Ms Alexander and Mr Biddle, I can't see any improvement in the toxic atmosphere of game journalism without their removal.

[Longknife]

I agree with most of your points but have to say that some of the aforementioned demonisation and dehumanisation is fairly much unfixable, the shows of utter contempt and hatred cannot really be forgotten, especially when they're directed at ones audience whom have in reality given the publications existence in the first place. For such people as Ms Alexander and Mr Biddle, I can't see any improvement in the toxic atmosphere of game journalism without their removal.

 

 

This goes beyond the movement to basic customer reactions.

 

For example IGN has been rather neutral on this, surprisingly. I say surprisingly cause they'd be one of the firsts on everyone's list for writing paid reviews. But now it seems they're willing to take this opportunity to reflect and fix that. While I'm willing to give them a pass in the sense of the GamerGate movement in that I won't be encouraging their advertisers to jump ship....I'm still not motivated to read their stuff. I might click an article from IGN if it's relevant to my interests, but I know they write bought reviews so I always take their stuff with a grain of salt and actively avoided their reviews in the past if I could.

 

  Should I, for example, feel compelled to now go out of my way to read articles written by IGN or Totilo in support of their actions during GamerGate...? No, screw that. I'm still your customer, I still need motivation and you still have to sell me on the idea you provide a worthy service. If your article interests me, I might read, but I'm not going to be playing sides and supporting certain journalists on the principle of them partaking in positive actions (or rather, neutral actions) during GamerGate.

 

We are the customers, plain and simple, and our motivation to read things written by the standard old names is currently at an all time low. Their problem, not ours, and we should not be expected to keep their boat afloat. Even if GamerGate actively told people to make efforts to support his work, I doubt it'd work, because in that sense people care more about personal motivations.

[Longknife]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IosGtGjUxvQ

 6:35

 

"I'm well liked."

 

God damn does this woman ever stop lying?

[TrashMan]

Oh, Base Mom bashes another radical femnist card:

[kirottu]

The feels part II:

[Longknife]

Oh, Base Mom bashes another radical femnist card:

 

 

I have to speak out on this. Being raised by a single mother, I'm well aware that yes, this is an issue. What this doesn't address is that this whole discussion refers to "on average," and much of her citations come from businesses or business-relevant organizations themselves. I would be willing to bet money, for example, that you'd be less likely to see wage discrimination amongst higher paying jobs such as psychiatry or amongst lawyers, but I'm sure this also means a woman who works in a "replaceable" position with a restaurant or tech support is going to receive lower pay. The 23 cent that dicusses is a national average, and I would argue that this actually means certain regions of the country and certain jobs are actually discriminating far more ($1.50 less per hour, for example) while some don't at all. This does not invalidate the claim as it actually means that for certain positions and certain regions of the country, this is actually more important of an issue to tackle. Not long before GamerGate started I actually stumbled across a study where employers were admitting that they will pass over hiring a mother or a would-be mother (woman who would like to have kids) to get out of paying for maternity leave: businesses are logical by design, and sadly this means they sometimes wish to get back that money they might lose via maternity leave and the like.

 

   Having said that, I personally wish this were the issue feminists WOULD focus on, and not stupid bulls*** like how big are the **** on Princess Peach. And while I may disagree with some of the methodology Sommers proposed in this video (or didn't propose in some cases), I still can appreciate that we need to look at things realistically and not sensationally. However, from experience of being raised by a single mother, partly in a more old fashioned and conservative culture, I've experienced for myself how she earned about ~$2.50 less than male counterparts with similar qualifications, as that issue came up when she would later sue her employer for firing her right before I was about to get an expensive surgery their insurance didn't want to cover. And no, those guys weren't just ****, cause her current employer now also undercuts her, though thankfully not as drastically.

[Meshugger]

Best Sargon of Akkad so far:

http://youtu.be/3F7Xze27wKE?list=UU-yewGHQbNFpDrGM0diZOLA

 

Pretty damn good. The guy should look more into post-modernism, that's pretty much the philosophy of these guys. It is simply:

 

- Rejection of reason

- Rejection of empirical knowledge

- Rejection of theory

- Sceptisism to concepts

- Everything is a construct of something else

- Personal truths through personal emotional experience, not objective truths through logical statements

- Critical theory, "the end of all theories"

 

Now, doesn't all of that sound familiar to this whole debacle?

[Fighter]

 

This has to be a joke...

[Meshugger]

Get the **** outta here, that can't be true.

[Longknife]

 

This has to be a joke...

 

 

We need a screencap with a name. If we get that then holy **** is this warped.

 

 

I already doubt it though based on the person covering their tracks and saying the message is gone, and that they had just enough time to conveniently post it word for word but not actually screencap it. To truly investigate it, demand a name of a mod from the person, then just confront the mod and ask about it. I'm sure you'd be able to tell from their reaction and personality if it were true, and a liar would probably bail or claim they forget the name.

Edited October 30, 2014 by Longknife

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

I'm going to be skeptical. Too outright harsh and not enough whining to seem authentic.

[Blarghagh]

I really, really hope that was fake.

[Fighter]

Here is the original discussion: http://www.reddit.com/r/TransSupport/comments/2ks7k2/who_should_i_take_this_up_with_im_literally/

[kirottu]

It has to be fake. That's like a whole another dimension of Mcintosh scale. A dimension I don't want believe exists.