Drama and games journalism, soggy leg joint edition

[Longknife]

 

 

Excuse me? Are we talking about the same GamerGate?

 

 

If anything, the issue is that gaming journalists are so corrupt that EVERY game is "10/10 go throw all your money at the developers now." There's no issue with critics being TOO critical.

 

As I stated earlier (and it was conveniently ignored by all the opposition), the issue is when they try to judge a game by how well it adheres to their moral code, and rather than simply having a website they themselves personally rely on because it always judges games based on a moral code, they wish for ALL critics to adhere to their personal moral code. That's spoiled, plain and simple. No, the world doesn't revolve around you, the world is largely built on democracy, and capitalism runs on adapting to the situation at hand properly and providing the service desired. Thus, most journalists don't adhere to your minority opinion about games. If you try to coerce them into doing so, yes there will be backlash and yes we'll see a boiling over point, such as now.

 

  No one is suggesting their voice is entirely unwelcome. What's suggested is their voice does not trump every OTHER voice out there. And yes, I'll bet my savings that they'll lose, solely on the grounds their idea of how to run things will not survive on the free market.

 

 

Yet you're still screaming about them being evil conspiracists instead of trying to trust the free market to sort the whole thing out. Despite your utter confidence in "their ideas not surviving on the free market". Huh.

 

Edit: also, for the nth time, I didn't suggest gaming culture has an issue with critics being TOO critical, it has an issue with critics being critical "in the wrong way". Which I find patently ridiculous.

 

 

 

How am I NOT trusting the free market?

 

What am I doing? I'm sitting here not visiting those websites and partaking in any calls to write companies and say I'm not happy with that website's work.

 

There's no panic. There's no attempt by me to take matters into my own hands somehow, there's no drastic movements or unreasonable demands on my part. I'm sitting here waiting for the free market to kick in to a large enough degree that either the journalists change their tone or those websites as we know it die out for their failure to adapt, much like Netflix ate Blockbusters alive.

 

Please, tell me how on EARTH I'm not trusting the free market? I literally just said I'd be willing to bet my savings the free market eats the SJW side alive.  I've got a good $20,000 worth of stock in Tesla Motors I'd be more than happy to cash out and place a bet on this with.

 

 

 

That I come here and rant about it and voice frustration...? This is on par with how I came to these very same forums and made a thread about how mind-boggling insane it is to me that the Sims 4 actually had a blind fan following willing to loyally pre-order the blatantly half-assed product. This is me coming here to say "guys am I insane or does anyone share my view" before I end up throwing myself off my balcony while saying "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

Edited October 17, 2014 by Longknife

[TrashMan]

 

The only real place for freedom of speech.

 

http://www.xkcd.com/1357/

 

 

If someone tries to forcefully shut you up because he doesn't like what you are saying, how is that not censorship and attack on free speech?

I'm not talking about the government here mind you.

I'm talking about the spirit of what free speech is.

Trying to hurt someone, get him in trouble or otherwise pressure him is deplorable either way you look at it.

[BruceVC]

 

@KaineParker Funny, and here I thought Texas has the highest horses of them all. Surely you haven't traded them in for ponies?

'Fraid not. We also don't wear cowboy hats either surprisingly. We do have some great shelters for abused women though.

 

http://www.hawc.org/en/support-us/donate-today/

 

Feel free to chip in whatever.

 

 

@ KP

 

I'll definitely donate to this initiative

 

I hope you aren't taking Primes comments too seriously, he is making some valid points but also having some fun at the same time with his jabs

 

We need a bit of humour in this thread because at times it gets too serious

 

And some of the comments have been quite funny

[TrashMan]

 

There is no "gaming mysgonistic bubble"

Gaming never had any "culture". Not in the real sense of the world.

 

 

...Right.

 

 

Reading comprehension.

 

 

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Oh push off . I'm not blaming any victims. I'm blaming the media that blew it completely out of proportion, polarized everyone, gave power to the trolls and lured them out of the woodwork to come down on the victims in force, and everyone who bought into that ridiculous narrative  It's all well and good to spin the wheel of politically correct discrediting and land on victim blaming but that doesn't make it anything else. (...)

 

The trolls have won and the moral outrage machine considers it a victory and I'm pissed because they hurt everything we've worked for.

 

 

And I still believe that pushing the same amount of responsibility to the "moral outrage machine" instead of the trolls doing the harrassing is a skeevy attitude.

 

(Also, let it be noted that I've pointed out in my first post on the matter that I don't believe you intended to do any victim-blaming. I'm not a big fan of arguing in bad faith.)

[PrimeJunta]

Ah well. Tell you what, I'll donate $50 to HAWC for both of us.

Cool. I'll match it for the Communists, then.

 

(It'll have to be a local one though as donating to a foreign political party is bad form, if the CPUSA even accepts donations from abroad, or are allowed to.)

 

@BruceVC: The Internet is serious business, don't you know?

[Longknife]

 

 

The only real place for freedom of speech.

 

http://www.xkcd.com/1357/

 

 

If someone tries to forcefully shut you up because he doesn't like what you are saying, how is that not censorship and attack on free speech?

I'm not talking about the government here mind you.

I'm talking about the spirit of what free speech is.

Trying to hurt someone, get him in trouble or otherwise pressure him is deplorable either way you look at it.

 

 

 

They're not attacking our free speech mind you, their simply failing their duties as journalists by refusing to report our voices and what we actually want. They conveniently interview and follow the narrative of the same minority (VAST minority) opinion and then preach that opinion as if it were the word of God.

 

 

  It's not an attack on free speech, it's just incredibly ass journalism.

 

  The closest any of it comes to an attack on free speech is that at some levels it does resemble coercion, in that various people within the industry - be they game developers, other journalists or indy game developers - have come forth and described a "pressure" to adhere to their standards. That's the closest it's come to attacking free speech, but even then the target isn't us.

 

 

Us? We're just blatantly ignored and not heard, DESPITE being their consumers. That won't end well for them.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

@KaineParker Funny, and here I thought Texas has the highest horses of them all. Surely you haven't traded them in for ponies?

'Fraid not. We also don't wear cowboy hats either surprisingly. We do have some great shelters for abused women though.

 

http://www.hawc.org/en/support-us/donate-today/

 

Feel free to chip in whatever.

@ KP

 

I'll definitely donate to this initiative

 

I hope you aren't taking Primes comments too seriously, he is making some valid points but also having some fun at the same time with his jabs

 

We need a bit of humour in this thread because at times it gets too serious

 

And some of the comments have been quite funny

I can certainly say I don't take Prime particularly seriously. Will admit that being called a Chinese manufacturing company was a little strange though.

 

Glad you could pitch in Bruce.

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

That I come here and rant about it and voice frustration...? This is on par with how I came to these very same forums and made a thread about how mind-boggling insane it is to me that the Sims 4 actually had a blind fan following willing to loyally pre-order the blatantly half-assed product. This is me coming here to say "guys am I insane or does anyone share my view" before I end up throwing myself off my balcony while saying "I don't want to live on this planet anymore."

 

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

 

 

 

The only real place for freedom of speech.

 

http://www.xkcd.com/1357/

 

 

If someone tries to forcefully shut you up because he doesn't like what you are saying, how is that not censorship and attack on free speech?

I'm not talking about the government here mind you.

I'm talking about the spirit of what free speech is.

Trying to hurt someone, get him in trouble or otherwise pressure him is deplorable either way you look at it.

 

 

So, continued harrassment to the point of people giving up their careers in gaming is not censorship and an attack on their artistic integrity/free speech/whatever, but trying to deal with said harrassment is deplorable, because our primary concern should totally lie with the harrassers. Got it.

 

 

 

There is no "gaming mysgonistic bubble"

Gaming never had any "culture". Not in the real sense of the world.

 

 

...Right.

 

 

Reading comprehension.

 

 

...The bolded part is an attitude that's addressed in the article, y'know. Reading comprehension, I guess?

[Zoraptor]

But whats a manboon? Seriously. Since it came from PJ then Im sure its intended as some withering insult but I cant even look it up. Someone help a brother out?

 

 

He almost certainly picked it up from Cleveland Mark Blakemore. If you don't know who Cleveland Mark Blakemore is I'm afraid there aren't enough minutes left in the life of the universe to adequately explain. PJ is basically doing a (pretty poor, though to be fair the full Blakemore experience wouldn't come close to passing moderation) impersonation of Cleve's posting style, in the reverse direction since the thought of Cleve as an SJW is not something that be comprehended by normal mortals.

[PrimeJunta]

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

 

Crap. In that case I think I may have made a faux pas.

[PrimeJunta]

I am humbled to be mentioned in context with that king of the 'Thals. Sadly, a lowly melonhead here.

 

Edit: Grimoire is a day 1 purchase, when it comes out. I'll be setting aside money from my pension for the purpose.

Edited October 17, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[aluminiumtrioxid]

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

 

 

Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless.

[Malcador]

So, continued harrassment to the point of people giving up their careers in gaming is not censorship and an attack on their artistic integrity/free speech/whatever, but trying to deal with said harrassment is deplorable, because our primary concern should totally lie with the harrassers. Got it.

s addressed in the article, y'know. Reading comprehension, I guess?

Still not convinced it is giving up careers really, versus doing the sensible thing and getting off Twitter. Or could just be flouncing. Either way it is pretty entertaining.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless.

So it's like a bunch of drunk people at a party?

 

That isn't a wholly inaccurate description of the internet as a whole really.

[Longknife]

 

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

 

 

Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless.

 

 

 

This story (the GamerGate story) is about a corrupt journalism market, and while that should be rather simple, it's absolutely fascinating to watch how far this goes and what kind of stuff they pull throughout the course of trying to dodge that issue and avoid acknowledging it. Just when you think the feminist shield is wearing out and it won't help them soon, suddenly the Guardian shows the same bias they show. Suddenly you're thinking "holy **** wtf bbq" because why the HELL is a journalism group not associated (or so we thought) with the corrupt gaming journalism group coming to their aide? How far is this thing going to go? And right when you think maybe there's something wrong with you as all the propaganda being spouted has you doubting the purpose, there's Wikileaks and a top executive at Microsoft cheering you on.

 

 

 

   It's absolutely fascinating to watch, and it's something a lot of us care about. Ever been the victim of corruption? I sadly have. Too many times than I wish to count, and each time absolutely devistating as you feel justice is a lie. And while we can't exactly do much from this forum in regards to bringing about tangible change (most we might do is relay info on which advertising groups to contact, or share quells of info), we can still sit here and try to make sense of "how the **** could this be allowed to happen?"

Edited October 17, 2014 by Longknife

[BruceVC]

 

 

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless.

So it's like a bunch of drunk people at a party?

 

That isn't a wholly inaccurate description of the internet as a whole really.

 

 

I just finished work now, its 11:20 pm....and I feel like getting drunk. Its been a long but relatively productive day, oh well there is always tomorrow to get a little inebriated

[Blarghagh]

 

 

Oh push off . I'm not blaming any victims. I'm blaming the media that blew it completely out of proportion, polarized everyone, gave power to the trolls and lured them out of the woodwork to come down on the victims in force, and everyone who bought into that ridiculous narrative  It's all well and good to spin the wheel of politically correct discrediting and land on victim blaming but that doesn't make it anything else. (...)

 

The trolls have won and the moral outrage machine considers it a victory and I'm pissed because they hurt everything we've worked for.

 

 

And I still believe that pushing the same amount of responsibility to the "moral outrage machine" instead of the trolls doing the harrassing is a skeevy attitude.

 

(Also, let it be noted that I've pointed out in my first post on the matter that I don't believe you intended to do any victim-blaming. I'm not a big fan of arguing in bad faith.)

 

 

Here's how I see it: I don't think that douche that doxxed and threatened Brianna Wu is a normal person. I think that person must have some kind of sociopathic disorder where they are addicted to negative attention or causing pain or whatever. It's like an alcoholic, except in the place of alcohol there's douchebaggery. And what Gawker media and even mainstream media has been doing, quite effectively, even if they don't intend to do so, is enabling this addiction. He saw another dev espousing a feminist message and put two and two together "if I attack this woman, the media will give me what I want". Obviously I condemn the guy, but I also condemn the media for giving him what he wants. At best, they have this "I don't negotiate with terrorists!" outlook and they don't realize they embody a figurative spawning pool for them. At worst, such as is the case with Leigh Alexander, they willingly and maliciously throw these victims under the bus and let the trolls descent upon them to prove their point. A "megaphone" indeed.

 

Listen, I condemn harassment but focusing on how one condemns harassment in the age of internet anonymity is just not useful. Therefore, I have to focus my ire on the next part that is to blame. Trust me, I've tried. I've been in the "trenches", I've reported about a thousand twitter trolls in just the last two weeks because I want GamerGate to be better. It does nothing. All the people I know who support the goal of journalistic ethics and are trying to make GamerGate a good thing? They have their heads in their hands because they keep being told "you can't talk about it while there are trolls" but it's impossible to remove them. It's not a viable or valid thing to ask. At this point, they're a force of nature.

[Malcador]

You need AA, Bruce.

[PK htiw klaw eriF]

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, cool. Venting frustration is an understandable goal. I just don't think there's any kind of meaningful conversation to be had when the only goal of a participant is to blow off steam.

Wait, that's not what this thread is for?

Much like gamergate itself, this thread is pretty much an amorphous blob which isn't really clear on what it's for, but has very strong feelings about it regardless.

So it's like a bunch of drunk people at a party?

 

That isn't a wholly inaccurate description of the internet as a whole really.

I just finished work now, its 11:20 pm....and I feel like getting drunk. Its been a long but relatively productive day, oh well there is always tomorrow to get a little inebriated

I find most times are a good time for getting drunk. Then again, I promised Wals I'd pick up his slack while he gives up drinking so I have to drink for two.

[BruceVC]

You need AA, Bruce.

 

Nah, I'm not a regular drinker but I am a binge drinker

[PrimeJunta]

@TrueNeutral That's changing too. There's serious discussion going on about what the responsibility of media like Twitter and Facebook should be about genuinely antisocial behavior. It's clear the current system isn't working, and it's ultimately affecting them as well.

 

There are solutions—technical, political, social, human—to that. Again, it'll be a while yet but it will happen.

 

I remember the Usenet before spam. It was a pretty wild place, but there was—in some forums anyway—pretty effective social controls on genuinely destructive behavior. Get seriously out of line and you'd get "twitted" or "kooked," after which people would mostly just point and laugh at you. That won't work on an open forum like Twitter. Some other solution will have to be found, and as is the way of such things, it will.

 

Edit: about that "it's not a normal person" thing. No, probably not. But that not-normal person felt encouraged and empowered by a horde of supporters. We're social primates. Social approval is really, really fundamental to what makes us tick. Would Anders Behring Breivik have shot up those kids if he hadn't had a validating echo chamber for his white supremacist, PUA, misogynist ideas? Would Elliot Rodger? Would any of those other spree killers? Somehow I don't think so.

 

"Nuts" is not an explanation or an excuse, it's an observation. Nutcases go nuts for reasons, and go nuts in particular ways for other reasons. Going "hey whoa I've nothing to do with that" after consistently validating their delusions and egging them on is a pretty cheap cop-out.

 

Same applies to anti-social stuff of lesser degrees than killing people of course.

 

(Also gotta point out that people who are actually nuts—as in, have diagnosed psychiatric disorders—are actually less likely to commit violent crimes than people who don't.)

Edited October 17, 2014 by PrimeJunta

[Blarghagh]

I'll believe it when I see it. I've been a message board junkie since I was eleven and the trolls were the only thing that never changed (other than getting worse).

 

EDIT: Well yeah, those who have diagnosed psychiatic disorders are getting treated. Or do you mean recognized?

[TrashMan]

 

 

So one time out of a bajillion threats.

Go on.

 

There has been three mass shootings and one bombing of shopping center in past 12 years in Finland, in every of these cases except one (our newest one where perpetrator got angry in line to food kiosk and decided to get his guns and kill everybody) there has been threats from perpetrator that they will do these acts in internet beforehand and each case police deemed those threats to be nothing but empty talks in internet, so much so that in one case the even gave weapon buy permit to perpetrator for weapon that he use in his killing spree even though they knew that he had threaten to shoot his fellow students. Which is why I think that internet threats should be taken as seriously as those that are made to face to face. If we don't take threats in internet seriously they will work as mask that obscures us to see those threats from people that actually will commit acts they threat to do and changes our attitudes towards hostile language so that we don't even blink when people use crude and uncivil language when they speak to us, which just make our society so much less pleasant to live (but that maybe just me not everybody else).

 

 

And for every one of those there is a million that amount to nothing.

Statistically, you have a higher chance of being stuck by lighting while in a rubber suit between two metal buildings.

 

Problem with taking everything seriously then it doesn't leave room for everything else.

 

You talk about a pleasant society to live in? I for one don't consider police states pleasant.

 

[Malcador]

I'll believe it when I see it. I've been a message board junkie since I was eleven and the trolls were the only thing that never changed (other than getting worse).

Only really preventive measure is to ruin anonymity online, which will be a shame when it is done.