What PoE can learn from Wasteland 2 release? (faults and lessons to learn)

[Sky_walker]

Some time passed since the release of Wasteland 2 so IMHO it's about time to make a summary of what PoE can learn from Wasteland 2.

 

Wasteland 2 was pretty much the first big "old-school RPG resurrected" in this recent flood to come, so I find it very relevant to the Pillars of Eternity and I'd love to see what you guys think.

 

Tell us what you guys liked and disliked in Wasteland 2 and how PoE can take clues from Wasteland 2 on it's future, final release of the game? Any particular points you didn't like a lot in the game and either gladly see "done right" in Pillars of Eternity, or would like to see done well in future?

 

Let me start Beware very long post, for TL;DR read first sentence and then last few of each point.

• First 5 hours of gameplay matter.  They matter a lot. People will post bad reviews online if they won't get engaged in the game during the beginning of a storyline.
  Wasteland 2 really screwed beginning of the game. It was boring, long, with nothing to spark your interest. Main plot was one of the weakest links, but side-quests didn't do it much of a favor either. Stories do get better somewhere past 12 hours, but most of  people will never see that before posting their negative opinion online and/or quitting the game. I wouldn't know any of this not the fact that my internet went down and I got no other games on my hard drive. There's literally nothing in first hours of Wasteland 2 writing that sets it apart from "all the other RPGs" out there. And that directly translates to all these reviews riddled with complains that you see online.
  PoE really needs to have that "spark" in at least some of the first few main storyline quests. There really needs to be something driving people's interest into the game. Even if you'd have tons of interesting things in last 5 hours of the main plot - it'd be meaningless for good 99% of people who never got there. And let's not forget about the side-quests. Flooding the game with "go there kill that" or "go there fix that" quests doesn't make it better or content rich. It turns game into the grind.
• Graphics DO matter. When asked people will tell you that they don't, but in the end they will have an impression of a "cheap" game. And graphics isn't just the amount of details game got, but also how "inspiring" locations are and how much "ave" do they bring, how good character animations are, how "alive" does the game world feel.
  I have well over 20 hours on Wasteland 2 (no idea how much exactly, but still) and so far I haven't seen anything I would call "amazing", anything that would make me want to explore certain location. Everything feels static, dull, repetitive. There's almost no animation in the game world (trees are perfectly still, windmills don't move, none of the NPCs interact with anything around them) and character animations feel very unnatural, almost as if they'd be floating underwater.
  PoE even in it's current state delivers much better experience on both fronts: Amount of details and how "inspiring" locations are. So I only can hope that game continues in that direction and in first hours of the gameplay people will see some amazing locations I also hope that we will see more elements brining "life" to the game, such as people moving stuff around, attending their every day duties (eg. house wifes washing their clothes by the river, kids catching butterflies, traders traveling between the towns and when in town - people buying stuff from them, etc. - everything that adds to the immersion and makes game world feel "real", not just a static scene you move around).
• Non-combat characters. I want them, and reading many reviews posted online: it seems like people in general do want them too.
  Sadly I don't have enough grasp on PoE just yet to comment whatever they're done "right" or "wrong" - I got somewhat mixed-towards-positive feelings at the moment, but in general: Making a game where you absolutely need to have every single character outputting DPS is a very bad game design. So is the fact that non-combat characters can be used relatively rarely and their skills don't really matter do due save&load&save&load cycle.
  Wasteland 2 is riddled with purely percentage-based skill-checks that literally ask player to reload the game over and over again. I'm not the kind of player who does that in almost any game at all, but Wasteland 2 pretty much forced me to do so (scarity of ammo combined with visible %, fully random loot, overleveled obstacles, critical failures and much more... there's an awful lot of things they designed in a way that's pushing people towards save&load cycle).
• Combat - Wasteland 2 combat is simple to grasp: You got guns that you shoot at the enemy, explosives that you throw at the enemy, some melee combat and a very basic cover system. That's pretty much all. Sadly this simplicity lead to the creation of something I would call "the most boring combat model in last 5 years or more". Simplicity is the only positive I can find in how Wasteland 2 combat was designed. Everything else about it is just plain wrong. At the beginning of game ammunition is horribly expensive (you sell heavy machine gun for less than 10 bullets?!) and difficult to find (especially if you don't reload to get ammo types you need), tactical challenges are close to none, the only reason to use certain types of weapons is that they use different types of ammo, random encounters are horribly repetitive and happen in more-or-less 4 locations that repeat over and over again, turns are tedious and completely take out any immersion from the game... it all feels like playing Draughts with a 5 year old kid where you know you will win for sure, only question is how long you will have to sit and wait for that.
  Basically: Wasteland 2 shows what's wrong with Turn-Based combat and adds it's own issues on top if that.
  Current version of PoE looks like a heaven full of variety, possibilities and abilities. You care about your characters and game flow is much more natural than in turn-based combat. There's basically no comparison. Only problem I have with it is that it's much harder to grasp (for me the hardest part was remembering all of the abilities, what goes where and when....).
• Opponents - Wasteland 2 is crippled by another problem related to combat - opponents. There's basically 3 types of them: Ranged, Melee, and explosives (throwing dynamite, etc.). Within each of these types there's basically no variety. You always deal with them in exactly the same way. There is absolutely no reason to adapt your tactics from one encounter to another, change your weapons, change formation, do anything differently than you would in a previous encounter. It's always the same: Spread around behind the covers, shoot, move on. Yes, enemies do use different weapons and either come close or stay behind accordingly, but that's pretty much where the variety between different AI models ends.
  The AI variety between different NPCs, even within the same type, is something I would love to see in every RPG I play. I don't care if game got 3 or 30 types of opponents - I do care how they behave.
  I would love to see some of the NPCs in enemy groups focusing only on healers (even if it'd mean putting themselves in danger), or trying to stay at the maximum range of their abilities (cowardly caster ), or blindly rushing in the middle of my group hoping to kill a team leader with melee weapon... ideas can go on and on.
  Wasteland 2 did two things wrong with their AI opponents: they lack variety and they lack in AI department. PoE got "variety" part by far better, but I still would like to see some different AI behaviors.
• Useless skills - again something that I don't feel knowledgeable enough to judge in PoE, but Wasteland 2 is riddled with skills and attributes that literally have next to no use. Most obvious example is the alarm disarming skill. Through whole my gameplay so far there's been just one place where using that skill was benefitial in any other way than few free XP points. Most of the alarms are either in a middle of enemy groups that you are going to kill or right next to them. And the only effect alarms have is calling in enemy support... which is already dead by the time I get to opening alarm-secured boxes/doors/whatever.
  Similar thing with "luck" attribute - in theory it affects everything, in practice 1 upgrade to the skill gives much better bonuses than attributes invested in "luck", considering how many skills you get comparing to few attributes - it's a complete waste of points that could be put in other, by far more beneficial, attributes. Sadly you can't really tell that until you are will into the game (at least past lvl 10) so it only adds to the frustration.
  I'm fine with situational skills, but when "situational" means "useful only once per 5 hours of a game" then something is obviously wrong.

 

 

Edited September 27, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Infinitron]

1) Don't completely screw up your non-English localization.

 

2) Don't release right when Steam completely changes its user interface and takes down your ad banner.

 

3) Don't release at the same time as a bunch of insanely popular Early Access hobo simulators.

 

4) And yeah, graphics.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Infinitron

[IndiraLightfoot]

Sky_walker: Thanks for taking the time to write that post. In general, your points on WL2 and the potential pirtfalls for PoE make sense.

 

In defence of WL2, which I really like playing, I'd like to say that if you happened to make a worthwhile and versatile party and reach 25h or more into the game, it becomes much more fun. At least it did for me, even the combat and the placement of your party, and its use of tactics. However, yeah, the start, perhaps five hours is surprisingly weak. The graphics look stale and repetitive at times, and some of it has been done in a rush. Take a look at Highpool and the mountainous area there, for instance. And skills - one point in barter on one character is enough, and Animal Whisperer was bugged, but most other skills I've had some use of, even the Toaster Repair.

 

Other lessons for PoE to learn from WL2:

-The character models are actually clearer and more visible WL2

-The isometric plain vs models is more correct in WL2

-Non-combat skills, while pretty boring implementation, really matters in WL2

-The inventory system far exceeds the one in PoE

-The small-increment xp system is better IMHO than quest-xp-only

-Although pulp fiction, there are tonnes and tonnes of great descriptions and dialogues, and lots of great humour too.

-The music in WL2 has been surprisingly repetitive. The mood is good, but it's not really taking off. I reckon Justin will beat that

-WL2 is a reasonably open world. Hopefully, PoE will be at least as open as that

-The log book feels generic and uninspired, I have a feeling that PoE will come up with something better

-Both critical hits and critical misses are in. I hope PoE will have that as well, and skip the graze attrition agony

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sky_walker]

Sky_walker: Thanks for taking the time to write that post. In general, your points on WL2 and the potential pirtfalls for PoE make sense.

 

In defence of WL2, which I really like playing, I'd like to say that if you happened to make a worthwhile and versatile party and reach 25h or more into the game, it becomes much more fun. At least it did for me, even the combat and the placement of your party, and its use of tactics. However, yeah, the start, perhaps five hours is surprisingly weak. The graphics look stale and repetitive at times, and some of it has been done in a rush. Take a look at Highpool and the mountainous area there, for instance. And skills - one point in barter on one character is enough, and Animal Whisperer was bugged, but most other skills I've had some use of, even the Toaster Repair.

 

Other lessons for PoE to learn from WL2:

-The character models are actually clearer and more visible WL2

-The isometric plain vs models is more correct in WL2

-Non-combat skills, while pretty boring implementation, really matters in WL2

-The inventory system far exceeds the one in PoE

-The small-increment xp system is better IMHO than quest-xp-only

-Although pulp fiction, there are tonnes and tonnes of great descriptions and dialogues, and lots of great humour too.

-The music in WL2 has been surprisingly repetitive. The mood is good, but it's not really taking off. I reckon Justin will beat that

-WL2 is a reasonably open world. Hopefully, PoE will be at least as open as that

-The log book feels generic and uninspired, I have a feeling that PoE will come up with something better

-Both critical hits and critical misses are in. I hope PoE will have that as well, and skip the graze attrition agony

Hehe, seems like we got very different point of view on many things.

- My party is "worthwhile and versatile" already. There's literally no battle I can loose unless I intentionally make stupid things, like sending my medic to duel with enemy boss just for lols , and across my part I got enough skill to open or fix anything I encounter. Somehow though it didn't make game much more fun. On a plus side though: after 20 hours of gameplay (!!!!) it finally seems that ammunition is something I actually can not only afford but even have a surplus of. Still not enough to consider selling any type of bullets, but enough for me not to run out of ammo in next-to-all of my characters as it happened in very early stages of a game where melee weapons come to be borderline mandatory due to ridiculous scarcity of ammunition. (And: yes, I did use different types of ammunition across my team members, however I tried to avoid save&load cycles as much as possible)

- "toaster repair" is a primary example of "badly done skill" - something that's usable only... once per major location hub? In some it isn't at all, in other it's twice, but still - it's something you use once per X hours of gameplay. For me it's a very bad design. Regardless how "funny" some people find it.

- Non-combat skills do matter, I didn't say they don't, but making non-combat character is pretty much pointless in a current state of game. You absolutely need everyone outputting damage or otherwise these tedious battles become unbearable.

- Inventory system in both games - PoE and WL2 - is very bad. For me it doesn't make much of a difference. Though yes, I do agree that WL2 is better.

- WL2 doesn't have any true open-world. It's all based on simple point-to-point hubs with linear dungeons and rather cramped locations. Think about that: when last time you seen large open space in WL2 that would fill a whole screen? Everything, always is filled with walls. Be it visible or invisible, but still: walls, and tunnels everywhere. RNC is probably the closest one to making an illusion of open space, but even there you have invisible wall no further away than 20 meters from any point.

- I think we have a different definition of what "graze attrition agony" is For me it's when you have to chop your way through the opponents over and over again falling asleep while doing it. And that's precisely what Wasteland 2 combat is. Pretty much all of it. Critics are just a fun gadget, that's all.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Sky_walker

[IndiraLightfoot]

No worries, mate.

 

And yes, I agree about the ammo, 20 hours (or 25 h for a completionist playthrough like my first) seems to be the sweet spot. As son as you have that Citadel, things get a bit more manageable - and you do realize that you literally can turn trash into treasure, and dung into dough, hehe.

 

I'm really fond of slow turn-based combat. Heck, I really liked M&M X, so as long as I like the basic recipe, I can keep going for 100+ hours.

 

Also, true about that false "open world" - that is generally the case in CRPGs like this. I really hope that PoE will have some illusionary freedom in regards to exploring and the critical plot paths. 

Edited September 27, 2014 by IndiraLightfoot

[Sky_walker]

Yes, well, 20 hours is a huge investment very few people are ready to take these days to come out from initial misery WL2 offers. Especially if you consider that main plot of many RPGs these days lasts for less than that (what is it of Skyrim, the latest huge RPG hit? 8 hours? if at all).

 

As for the open world.... well.... look at Fallout 2 - it had plenty of locations that made you feel like you are on a desert (1 / 2 / 3) - WL2 feels like you're constantly in a canyon. Or very clumped settlement inhabited by roughly 10 people (in some places it feels like there's just 5 people living there, rarely it's morel like 20). Fallout 2 "cities" somehow felt much bigger and more spacious (1 / 2-largeScreen). Heck, even Planescape Torment felt more open and non-linear than Wasteland 2 does, though PT had tons of locations with very little space and you could say the same about it - that there are always walls 20 meters away from you (PT town fragment - notice buildings you can walk around (they're not hugging the invisible wall like WL2 buildings do), some got more than one exit, there's plenty of open space between the buildings, or another town - even though it seems chaotic it actually is layed out in a logical way that makes some sense for a real town, WL2 towns rarely if ever make any logical sense (eg. well far away from city center in RNC, or shops in some dead-ends instead of being in a center or exit/entrance to the town, or a strange lack of any sleeping rooms even though traveling traders are a common place) ), heck even initial location (screen) gave you more options to interact with it (the environment) than nearly all of the WL2 locations do.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Sky_walker

[Malignacious]

• Graphics DO matter. When asked people will tell you that they don't, but in the end they will have an impression of a "cheap" game. And graphics isn't just the amount of details game got, but also how "inspiring" locations are and how much "ave" do they bring, how good character animations are, how "alive" does the game world feel.

 

This is the most important bit, across all gaming genres. In fact, animations are much more important than graphics and more significant because there is a clear ceiling for it.

 

Poor animations just destroy any enthusiasm for a game, most people feel it but can't pinpoint it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Malignacious

[Gromnir]

 

• Graphics DO matter. When asked people will tell you that they don't, but in the end they will have an impression of a "cheap" game. And graphics isn't just the amount of details game got, but also how "inspiring" locations are and how much "ave" do they bring, how good character animations are, how "alive" does the game world feel.

 

This is the most important bit, across all gaming genres. In fact, animations are much more important than graphics and more significant because there is a clear ceiling for it.

 

Poor animations just destroy any enthusiasm for a game, most people feel it but can't pinpoint it.

 

...

 

again, complete unclear on the concept. PoE is a throwback game with a purposeful retro look. graphics do matter but for this game, the kinda graphic features and nuance you seem overly concerned with are less important than almost any game we would care to mention. in fact, am betting that if this game looked exact like toee, the majority o' backers would be ok with that.

 

if we were recreating an asteroids or space invaders arcade game simulator and we got complaints 'bout dated graphics, we would be similarly dismissive. 

 

honest. you are not getting it.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Malignacious]

I'm pretty sure you belong into an exceedingly marginal group of nostalgia-fetish people, so your opinion is really quite irrelevant.

[Leferd]

Nostalgia-fetish people backed this game.

[Malignacious]

Nostalgia-fetish people backed this game.

 

Yes, and now if they want even more money than that backing, far more, they have to go beyond the nonsensical nostalgia bubble and actually put some production values in it.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Malignacious

[Gromnir]

I'm pretty sure you belong into an exceedingly marginal group of nostalgia-fetish people, so your opinion is really quite irrelevant.

PoE is reactionary. there is a niche o' crpg fans who have had to grudgingly accept mass effect, skyrim and dragon age as the current and future trend o' crpgs. this vocal and dedicated niche has been clamoring for a game more like bg2 for over a decade. obsidian recognized that while a major publisher would not, and perhaps could not make a game for that niche, a kickstarter could mine funds from that seemingly disenfranchised source o' the game buying community. in point o' fact, the amount o' funds obsidian were able to garner for a retro game that were emphasizing those qualities that made the ie game so popular exceeded expectations. the dedicated/rabid crpg purists (*chuckle*) who has sometimes unfairly looked at modern crpgs and seen the emphasis o' graphical flair over role-play substance recognized that PoE were aiming for the kinda reactionary nostalgia they had lobbying for these past many years. 

 

PoE is a kickstarter precisely 'cause it were aiming to offer a reactionary product to a disenfranchised niche o' crpg purchasers. the fact that you do not understand that basic premise is either the result o' you not reading the kickstarter page, or not believing that the goals o' obsidian stated in the kickstarter were meant to be taken seriously. in either case, your comments reveal a fundamental "unclear on the concept" kinda misconception on your part.

 

HA! Good Fun!

[Cantousent]

There's also a difference between retro graphics and bad graphics.  On the other hand, I don't think the graphics are *bad* in either WL2 or PoE.  I think they look good.  Some of the backdrops in PoE are actually quite pretty, and that's just the beta.  Even better, PoE still has some time to polish the graphics.

 

I've had fun with WL2, and I've used just about every skill in the game so far.  I just hope that I don't end up regretting putting points into disarming alarms because that would just be sad.  Still, Walker's account sounds reasonable, so I suspect he's right about it.  Damn!

[Malignacious]

 

PoE is a kickstarter precisely 'cause it were aiming to offer a reactionary product to a disenfranchised niche o' crpg purchasers. 

 

What does that have to do with putting basic production values into the game?

Stop making this silly false dichotomy where something is subtracted from the game if it actually has good animations and visuals.

 

You don't make any sense.

[Malignacious]

I don't think the graphics are *bad* in either WL2 or PoE.  I think they look good.  

 

Animations are more important than graphics.

I can still play Resident Evil 4 precisely because it has great animations.

Great animations never age, and that gives a significant longevity to games, because animations have a clear ceiling. Unlike the graphics.

Edited September 27, 2014 by Malignacious

[Gromnir]

to cant

 

be careful of wl2 leadership skill too, 'cause it is 1/2 as useful as described... which makes it not particular useful. and animal whisperer can result in wall-o'-success bugs. and save often, 'cause lord knows how many quests is still borked.  and there is clear correct v. bad builds and if you mistaken think that strength is an important ability for a melee build, you may end up with a near useless ranger. and...

 

*shrug*

 

to mal

 

"You don't make any sense."

 

right back at you. this were a kickstarter. the money they got from fans were specifically to build a retro game-- a throwback to the ie games. to take limited resources and invest them in some o' the style-over-substance suggestions you has made would be working completely at odds with the design goals for the project. 

 

nobody wants the game to look bad. nobody wants bad graphics to interfere with combat, but investing in "production values" is what many PoE backers see is wrong with current crpgs. major publishers spend so much time and effort and money adding rag doll physics (HA!) to a game and they forget that what is important in a squad-based tactical combat game with rpg elements is the depth and fluidity o' combat, and the role-play options. as for production values in general, the niche fans that have supported PoE seem far more concerned with the portrait selection than the stuff that has your shorts in a twist.

 

with a kickstarter such as PoE, there ain't enough money to make this game appeal to everybody, but that weren't the goal. obsidian were seeking to satisfy the niche we described, and the niche we described would be satisfied with toee graphics if combat were fluid and compelling and if there were loads o' role-play options. this IS a niche game, for niche fans and it gots a relative small budget compared to current crpgs made by major publishers. 

 

you

 

don't

 

get 

 

it

 

HA! Good Fun!

 

ps 

 

edit: darn quote function keeps going weird on us... oh well

Edited September 27, 2014 by Gromnir

[AlperTheCaglar]

 

Animations are more important than graphics.

I can still play Resident Evil 4 precisely because it has great animations.

Great animations never age, and that gives a significant longevity to games, because animations have a clear ceiling. Unlike the graphics.

 

The fact that you adore Resident Evil 4, and mention that console drivel on a thread that examines the possibilities of an old school cRPG speaks volumes about your taste.

Edited September 27, 2014 by AlperTheCaglar

[Malignacious]

Edited out racist comments. 

 

~ Gorgon

[samm]

I think what says more about his preferences is that he plays RE4 *because of its animations* xD

 

And on topic: Apparently, WL2 has changed a lot during backer beta phase and still undergoes balancing changes. So one lesson from this could be to keep the mechanics as simple as possible, so they're easier to tweak with less unforeseeable side effects.

 

[edit]

Ok, so he's just gone full retard. Reported.

Edited September 27, 2014 by samm

[Leferd]

Edited out racist comments. 

 

~ Gorgon

Well, there's that.

[W.MacKinnon]

Hey no need to troll the man for liking RE4. That game was great. (The scene on the river with the mutant crocodile was awesome.) These are very different games and both have merits, Crpg vs Third-person Shooter. I think it's worth recognizing that a large demographic prefers high-end graphics. This isn't that game with a budget for Dragon Age 3 or Witcher 3 graphics. So to expect that level of graphic production is over-reaching - sadly; but this game doesn't have a 10+million dollar budget.

 

On Topic of what Pillars can learn from Wasteland 2. Wasteland actually delivered more then I expected; as I was highly suspect of Inxile. (there previous releases being what they were. Bards Tale, Hunted, etc.) So much so I didn't back it, only reason I have a copy is due to my Pillars backing. I agree with Sky_Walker that combat in Wasteland 2 gets boring quickly, already Pillars has superior game play in this area due to class powers. Though at this stage without a clear combat log or rulebook; combat in Pillars it's quite confusing. Wasteland is superior in that regard(rules transparency), having simple combat - the thing to remember is the combat log in PoE is likely gimped in the demo due the game still being balanced. Otherwise we forum goers might be up in arms about a rules change, like halving the damage of a weapon type, or doubling of another.

 

Trap builds exist in Wasteland, as my blunt melee/toaster repairman PC can attest. Hopefully none present themselves in Pillars. So far the closest to a trap build I've made in the Pillars beta demo, was when my grimoire disappeared from my wizards inventory, making his class powers unusable(first beta build).

 

Save-scumming is much in effect in Wasteland 2, every chest is random loot. Every locked door, every skill check basically you save before attempting. Even playing the Pillars beta demo, I haven't had the need to save before every enemy encounter.  PoE likely will have a small amount of save-scumming, but evidence from the demo means it'll be less the Wasteland.

 

Storywise, Wasteland 2 is average fair. By that it's not terrible, it hasn't had any moments I went dear god - who wrote this scenario. It has a small amount of funny charm that Fallout had (Pushing the red button in the Citadel, the Night Terror.) I recognize the game wasn't going for funny charm so it's seldom appearance is okay. I haven't fully completed the Campaign yet, but Sky-walker is right that it takes awhile to find it's legs.

 

The biggest thing I hope Pillars has that Wasteland failed to give is interesting party members. Wasteland reminded me more of Jagged Alliance meets Ice Wind Dale, basically all PC's are blank slates with no personality. With Obsidian's writers experience I'm sure we'll see some great character development, as most of their rpg games have at least talking NPC party members.

 

EDIT: Noticed a few replies when I was writing this. Malignacious learn some respect. Flaming people is unacceptable behavior. This is a public forum sure, but comparing a person to a terrorist organization that beheads people. I can only shake my head.

[AlperTheCaglar]

.

 

Put some yogurt on it, it'll help the burn.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Gfted1
Edited out racist comments.

[ManifestedISO]

There's nothing left to salve, or save. Troll blew up like Arzt on LOST. (Albeit much more insensitively ... Leslie was a delightful character, helpful, funny ... not at all like bits up there.)

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=35kWxQCTuWA

Edited September 27, 2014 by ManifestedISO

[TheisEjsing]

.

Edited September 28, 2014 by Gfted1
Edited out racist comments.

[Cantousent]

That was so weird.  :Can't confused shaking his head icon:

 

Anyhow, back to regularly scheduled programming.  Like M.MK up above, I find some of the WL2 material campy and funny.  It has a certain charm.  I don't think PoE is being built in quite the same way, and I don't want it to get too campy, but a little levity is good.  Also like W.MK, I didn't back WL2, although I *did* back ToN.  I have enjoyed playing the game so far.  I'm taking Grom and Walker's advice, however, and restarting with some minor tweaks.  I don't mind living with mistakes in my build, but I *do* get irritated with having a skill next to useless.  I'll keep toaster repair just for the camp value, but I'll narrow my skill focus to ditch ones with extremely limited use.