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Is Might a Dump Stat? Is Perception THE DPS stat?

attribute might perception dump stat dps accuracy

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#41
Monte Carlo

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OMG! The stat system is BORKEN!!!11elevenses1!!!

 

But it is.


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#42
nipsen

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Would somebody kindly point out the to-hit/damage dependency for stats for a poor forum lurker,  as in, is there a wiki entry somewhere?

 

It seems that Accuracy (per)  gives better chance to hit and to crit.

 

I wonder if you could fix the balance of stats by leaving Accuracy(per) as more of a better hit but not crit chance and assign intellect as giving a wider crit range.

 

It seems to me the AOE/range thing is a little too class specific, switching to crit range should benefit all classes,

 

you could motivate it as critical hits being the genius ability to exploit a situation to cause maximum damage.  (or healing? can you crit with healing spells?)

 

Here's how it was supposed to work: "Yeah, the way we display the non-verbose final roll is always relative to the standard ranges: Miss on <=5, Graze on 6-50, Hit on 51-95, Crit on >=96.  Defense is subtracted from Accuracy and then applied as a modifier to the roll itself.  E.g. the attacker has 52 Accuracy and the defender has 30 Defense.  The difference is 22.  Three attacks happen in sequence.  The actual rolls are 65, 43, and 84.  Those are modified to 85 (Hit), 65 (Hit), and 106 (Crit).  There are two exceptions to this: a natural roll of <=5 can never be better than a Graze and a natural roll of >=96 can never be worse than a Hit, no matter how much the table gets skewed." So says Josh.

 

So since dex increases accuracy (with various modifiers), and Int increases threat range (with some limitations I think), it always was possible to create a fighter without MAX-MIN stats, who still do fairly high and consistent damage. Because of the accuracy bonus (and high attack roll bonuses), he would convert hits that would have been misses into grazes and hits. And there's be a generous amount of criticals as well. In difficult fights against quick high def targets, that fighter (with similar, but not identical strengths as the rogue) would likely be one of the main damage dealers. OMG the system is BORKERN!! because might can be dropped!!!

 

Against heavy DT targets, however, things get more difficult. Because now all those grazes and hits never do any damage at all. Only the crits actually do any damage for the elf running around swatting the Orc with a sword. And a high might stat, or something that bypasses armor, becomes critical. And OMG!!! THE SYSTEM IS BROOOOKKKKEEBNNNN!!!!! Because now only Might works.

 

Btw, now you suddenly you see the appeal of the barbarian as well, who can temp between the two roles at the cost of defense and other interrupt-based abilities the fighter is extremely well suited for.

 

So that's just the attacks of the fighter builds, while ignoring the defenses for a while. Which is equally interesting. And that's how one class can encompass several completely different types of builds, that pass into the territory of the other classes, and vice versa.

 

 

-----

 

The question is what exactly, if anything, was actually changed this time around. It is this: Perception became Accuracy, and defense bonuses became "deflection", governed by Intellect. Resistance became the governing stat for duration, rather than Int.

 

And what has happened with the rest? Does perception still govern chance to cause interrupts? Does defense bonuses (that used to come from dex) still improve your chances to overcome your resistance checks for interrupts against you? We don't know, because now apparently defense comes from intelligence and perception, rather than dexterity and constitution. 

 

What have you accomplished then, you bastards? You have switched around existing values so that the intuitive synergies between might, dexterity, intelligence and perception makes more mattthemattical sense, if you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics underneath, and couldn't care less about roleplaying a character before POURING OVER THE ENTIRE STAT SHEET for hours.

 

And in return, you can now make a kind of character who is for example extremely perceptive and intelligent, and choose a class that offsets the penalties form dumping all the other stats. You can make a dwarf fighter who is hardy and crafty. And because he's a good mechanic, he can also dodge bullets. 

 

I'll tell you what you've accomplished. You've managed to accomplish nothing whatsoever except making the system more unintuitive and more difficult to play into. And you've removed the probability that I'll ever really enjoy the fighting and the mechanics of the game again. It'll be the dialogue, and **** the rest.

 

That's what you've accomplished. So thank you so ****ing much, **** ****ing superfans. That's the last I'll say about this. **** you.

 

 

OMG! The stat system is BORKEN!!!11elevenses1!!!

 

But it is.

 

By definition, as per your subjective feeling? Or is it more of a group and a PR thing, where the system isn't working unless a majority of the entire group somehow seems to like it at the same time.

 

Go to hell.

 

Seriously, what the **** are you guys even doing around here? What do you want?



#43
IndiraLightfoot

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First Malignacious, and now nipsen - two floor-clearing posts in like 24H.

 

I borrowed this from TheisEjsing:

 

 

 

 



#44
nipsen

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Oh, and here are all my thoughts laid out in a video:

1236250_742690865802349_8165995430199381



#45
Sensuki

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So since dex increases accuracy (with various modifiers), and Int increases threat range (with some limitations I think), it always was possible to


Intellect never increased the threat range.

What have you accomplished then, you bastards? You have switched around existing values so that the intuitive synergies between might, dexterity, intelligence and perception makes more mattthemattical sense, if you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics underneath, and couldn't care less about roleplaying a character before POURING OVER THE ENTIRE STAT SHEET for hours.


Dude, it's clear that you know less about the mechanics underneath than most other people do as you keep making false claims and chucking a tantrum over nothing.
 

And in return, you can now make a kind of character who is for example extremely perceptive and intelligent, and choose a class that offsets the penalties form dumping all the other stats. You can make a dwarf fighter who is hardy and crafty. And because he's a good mechanic, he can also dodge bullets.


We didn't say anything about adding Deflection to Intellect, that wasn't our idea and I agree it's dumb, but not in the way you think it is. 
 

I'll tell you what you've accomplished. You've managed to accomplish nothing whatsoever except making the system more unintuitive and more difficult to play into. And you've removed the probability that I'll ever really enjoy the fighting and the mechanics of the game again. It'll be the dialogue, and **** the rest.


The only thing more unintuitive is Intellect and Resolve really.
 

That's what you've accomplished. So thank you so ****ing much, **** ****ing superfans. That's the last I'll say about this. **** you.


Didn't realize you were a manchild, but okay.

#46
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I just don't get how something that was so simple and could have been fixed by just giving deflection to resolve and maybe 1/2 other bonuses to perception resulted in half the stats functions completely changing.  I like the 10 is 0 thing but the rest of the stat changes are pretty bad in my opinion.  Change int back to what it was, leave might alone, leave con alone, give accuracy back to dex maybe even let it keep it's speed bonus though I am not sure it needs it, let perception keep it's range thing give it back the interrupt chance and give it like a small percentage chance to convert hit's to crits, give deflection to resolve.

 

Boom you are done.


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#47
nipsen

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So since dex increases accuracy (with various modifiers), and Int increases threat range (with some limitations I think), it always was possible to


Intellect never increased the threat range.

 

 
Well, my understanding was that the bonus from int skewed the scale for the severity of the wounds you inflicted. I.e., made the critical hits hurt more. That isn't reflected in the stats directly, and it's not dependent on derived bonuses from stats. And it won't show up until the damage compounds and stamina depletes. So if the intention to make that was implemented in the game, then Int would affect the severity of critical hits. Example: a more severe critical hit snaps endurance and speed, making the amount of stamina to be depleted before a knock-out would perhaps as much as halve.
 

 

What have you accomplished then, you bastards? You have switched around existing values so that the intuitive synergies between might, dexterity, intelligence and perception makes more mattthemattical sense, if you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics underneath, and couldn't care less about roleplaying a character before POURING OVER THE ENTIRE STAT SHEET for hours.


Dude, it's clear that you know less about the mechanics underneath than most other people do as you keep making false claims and chucking a tantrum over nothing.

 

Clearly. And watch my video in the post above for the full explanation.
 

 

And in return, you can now make a kind of character who is for example extremely perceptive and intelligent, and choose a class that offsets the penalties form dumping all the other stats. You can make a dwarf fighter who is hardy and crafty. And because he's a good mechanic, he can also dodge bullets.


We didn't say anything about adding Deflection to Intellect, that wasn't our idea and I agree it's dumb, but not in the way you think it is.

 

Then how? Was dodge/deflection added as a non-class specific bonus - that you can skew an existing variable with a stat? Was it never in the game until now? Does it add value to a stat that had none before? If so, why? Is the actual benefit extremely small? We don't seem to know any of this - but that of course doesn't stop people from wishing for mechanically consistent stats that fit into an extremely specific style of play. Which you now seem to be getting from the devs. Who, for whatever reason, feel that this is now what people want - over a system easy to ROLEPLAY with, in a ROLEPLAYING GAME. Because that's just for dorks and nerds.
 

 

I'll tell you what you've accomplished. You've managed to accomplish nothing whatsoever except making the system more unintuitive and more difficult to play into. And you've removed the probability that I'll ever really enjoy the fighting and the mechanics of the game again. It'll be the dialogue, and **** the rest.


The only thing more unintuitive is Intellect and Resolve really.

 

Yes..?

Someone can be extremely headstrong, and yet completely f'n thick in the head. Someone can be a magnificent genius, but has no discipline or control of any sort, and can be talked into doing anything, for any reason.

And these concepts are unknown, because...?
 

 

That's what you've accomplished. So thank you so ****ing much, **** ****ing superfans. That's the last I'll say about this. **** you.


Didn't realize you were a manchild, but okay.

 

Brilliant. I also have only one single mood, and always act in a 100% predictable pattern regardless of context, in case you hadn't deduced that on beforehand.



#48
Sensuki

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Well, my understanding was that the bonus from int skewed the scale for the severity of the wounds you inflicted. I.e., made the critical hits hurt more. That isn't reflected in the stats directly, and it's not dependent on derived bonuses from stats. And it won't show up until the damage compounds and stamina depletes. So if the intention to make that was implemented in the game, then Int would affect the severity of critical hits. Example: a more severe critical hit snaps endurance and speed, making the amount of stamina to be depleted before a knock-out would perhaps as much as halve.


Where are you getting this information from? Intellect in PE BB Attribute System v1 only affected Durations and AoE. It would have some effect on the magnitude of non-damaging hits where the effect duration scales with grazes and crits. However only at a flat percentile value of -50% (0.5% per attribute point) or +50% (+1.5% per attribute point).
 

Clearly. And watch my video in the post above for the full explanation.


Your video is an image, you should have added in a youtube UI over the top of it if you wanted to trick me into opening it.
 

Then how?


Let me answer your questions first.

  • Was dodge/deflection added as a non-class specific bonus - that you can skew an existing variable with a stat?

Yes

  • Was it never in the game until now?

Never a part of attributes, yes.
 

  • Does it add value to a stat that had none before?

Yes it does, which is the entire point of adding it.
 

  • If so, why?

Because to meet Josh's design goals properly, the attributes need to give more balanced benefits
 

Is the actual benefit extremely small?


It is at the moment, because they changed the way the Attributes give bonuses. 10 is 0 and anything less actually gives negative effects.
 

Then how?


I think it's dumb because adding Deflection and AoE together is pretty crap for most classes. It's really good for Paladins and Chanters though. Intellect as it was before was way better. I also don't think it makes that much sense from an RP perspective unless you go by that D&D splat book that had Intellect based Fighter stuff ... Duellisty type thing.

Durations and Concentration together on Resolve makes sense to me from an RP perspective, but I think Deflection and Concentration makes more sense, and Durations and AoEs should go together on Intellect.

Here's the thing though, I'm not sure if you've read much of Josh Sawyer's posts about the attribute system, but he has said he wants it to be a gamey system rather than a simulation-y system where the attributes are balanced via the combat benefits, with 'making sense' from an RP perspective being a secondary concnern. That's how it's been all along, we took that into account when designing our alternate system and this new version goes even further in the 'making less sense' department IMO even though they think it makes more sense than ours.
 

Someone can be extremely headstrong, and yet completely f'n thick in the head. Someone can be a magnificent genius, but has no discipline or control of any sort, and can be talked into doing anything, for any reason.

And these concepts are unknown, because...?


My understanding is that this stuff doesn't really matter too much in combat because the attribute system revolves around balance in combat. This stuff is only important for Dialogue and Scripted Interactions. And it already does what it's supposed to do there.
 

Brilliant. I also have only one single mood, and always act in a 100% predictable pattern regardless of context, in case you hadn't deduced that on beforehand.


Well you're flailing your arms around ignoring the actual reasons for things, and making your own up due to your negative experience with ... what game was it ? Gears of War or something.


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#49
Monte Carlo

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Would somebody kindly point out the to-hit/damage dependency for stats for a poor forum lurker,  as in, is there a wiki entry somewhere?

 

It seems that Accuracy (per)  gives better chance to hit and to crit.

 

I wonder if you could fix the balance of stats by leaving Accuracy(per) as more of a better hit but not crit chance and assign intellect as giving a wider crit range.

 

It seems to me the AOE/range thing is a little too class specific, switching to crit range should benefit all classes,

 

you could motivate it as critical hits being the genius ability to exploit a situation to cause maximum damage.  (or healing? can you crit with healing spells?)

 

Here's how it was supposed to work: "Yeah, the way we display the non-verbose final roll is always relative to the standard ranges: Miss on <=5, Graze on 6-50, Hit on 51-95, Crit on >=96.  Defense is subtracted from Accuracy and then applied as a modifier to the roll itself.  E.g. the attacker has 52 Accuracy and the defender has 30 Defense.  The difference is 22.  Three attacks happen in sequence.  The actual rolls are 65, 43, and 84.  Those are modified to 85 (Hit), 65 (Hit), and 106 (Crit).  There are two exceptions to this: a natural roll of <=5 can never be better than a Graze and a natural roll of >=96 can never be worse than a Hit, no matter how much the table gets skewed." So says Josh.

 

So since dex increases accuracy (with various modifiers), and Int increases threat range (with some limitations I think), it always was possible to create a fighter without MAX-MIN stats, who still do fairly high and consistent damage. Because of the accuracy bonus (and high attack roll bonuses), he would convert hits that would have been misses into grazes and hits. And there's be a generous amount of criticals as well. In difficult fights against quick high def targets, that fighter (with similar, but not identical strengths as the rogue) would likely be one of the main damage dealers. OMG the system is BORKERN!! because might can be dropped!!!

 

Against heavy DT targets, however, things get more difficult. Because now all those grazes and hits never do any damage at all. Only the crits actually do any damage for the elf running around swatting the Orc with a sword. And a high might stat, or something that bypasses armor, becomes critical. And OMG!!! THE SYSTEM IS BROOOOKKKKEEBNNNN!!!!! Because now only Might works.

 

Btw, now you suddenly you see the appeal of the barbarian as well, who can temp between the two roles at the cost of defense and other interrupt-based abilities the fighter is extremely well suited for.

 

So that's just the attacks of the fighter builds, while ignoring the defenses for a while. Which is equally interesting. And that's how one class can encompass several completely different types of builds, that pass into the territory of the other classes, and vice versa.

 

 

-----

 

The question is what exactly, if anything, was actually changed this time around. It is this: Perception became Accuracy, and defense bonuses became "deflection", governed by Intellect. Resistance became the governing stat for duration, rather than Int.

 

And what has happened with the rest? Does perception still govern chance to cause interrupts? Does defense bonuses (that used to come from dex) still improve your chances to overcome your resistance checks for interrupts against you? We don't know, because now apparently defense comes from intelligence and perception, rather than dexterity and constitution. 

 

What have you accomplished then, you bastards? You have switched around existing values so that the intuitive synergies between might, dexterity, intelligence and perception makes more mattthemattical sense, if you know absolutely nothing about the mechanics underneath, and couldn't care less about roleplaying a character before POURING OVER THE ENTIRE STAT SHEET for hours.

 

And in return, you can now make a kind of character who is for example extremely perceptive and intelligent, and choose a class that offsets the penalties form dumping all the other stats. You can make a dwarf fighter who is hardy and crafty. And because he's a good mechanic, he can also dodge bullets. 

 

I'll tell you what you've accomplished. You've managed to accomplish nothing whatsoever except making the system more unintuitive and more difficult to play into. And you've removed the probability that I'll ever really enjoy the fighting and the mechanics of the game again. It'll be the dialogue, and **** the rest.

 

That's what you've accomplished. So thank you so ****ing much, **** ****ing superfans. That's the last I'll say about this. **** you.

 

 

OMG! The stat system is BORKEN!!!11elevenses1!!!

 

But it is.

 

By definition, as per your subjective feeling? Or is it more of a group and a PR thing, where the system isn't working unless a majority of the entire group somehow seems to like it at the same time.

 

Go to hell.

 

Seriously, what the **** are you guys even doing around here? What do you want?

 

 

nerd+rage.png

 

Ha ha ha his rage tastes like sweet butter.

 

All I want is an intuitive stats system that makes some sense.


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#50
Karkarov

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All I want is an intuitive stats system that makes some sense.

Not sure I agree with all the nit picking you guys are doing but this line makes tons of sense.



#51
Monte Carlo

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* shrugs *

 

I just want the stats to do stuff you expect them to do. I'm taking quite a lot of flak for the heresy of pointing out that it's not very intuitive to have a fighter for whom intelligence is more important than strength (for example).

 

Guys, listen in - the emperor is naked. I know many of you will find this shocking but there it is. This stat system is FUBAR.

 

None of the infinity engine games had this stat algebra going on where you have to second guess which stat does what, along with grazes and deflection. Simple doesn't have to be stupid. In fact not simple, elegant. This system isn't elegant. It's obtuse.

 

Furthermore, the idea that I suddenly have to understand MMO tropes (damage dealer / dps / tank) when playing a game marketed as an Infinity Engine tribute is another slap in the face. If I make a fighter I expect a durable combatant whom I can tweak within the class. Nothing more and nothing less.

 

At the moment the character-building system in poE is like a complex joke only Josh and a few of his admirers seem to understand. The shills on this forum who dig it might be happy but trust me the rest of the gaming population are about to brew up a big cauldron of WTF once this hits the streets.

 

Happily, it's not too late to change it.


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#52
nipsen

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Well, my understanding was that the bonus from int skewed the scale for the severity of the wounds you inflicted. I.e., made the critical hits hurt more. That isn't reflected in the stats directly, and it's not dependent on derived bonuses from stats. And it won't show up until the damage compounds and stamina depletes. So if the intention to make that was implemented in the game, then Int would affect the severity of critical hits. Example: a more severe critical hit snaps endurance and speed, making the amount of stamina to be depleted before a knock-out would perhaps as much as halve.


Where are you getting this information from? Intellect in PE BB Attribute System v1 only affected Durations and AoE. It would have some effect on the magnitude of non-damaging hits where the effect duration scales with grazes and crits. However only at a flat percentile value of -50% (0.5% per attribute point) or +50% (+1.5% per attribute point).

 

So it was there, but I'm clearly wrong about everything I said. And it had the effect I suggested, but I'm wrong about how that works as well. Got it.
 

Here's the thing though, I'm not sure if you've read much of Josh Sawyer's posts about the attribute system, but he has said he wants it to be a gamey system rather than a simulation-y system where the attributes are balanced via the combat benefits, with 'making sense' from an RP perspective being a secondary concnern. That's how it's been all along, we took that into account when designing our alternate system and this new version goes even further in the 'making less sense' department IMO even though they think it makes more sense than ours.

It seems to me he hasn't actually said much about how it works. The piece about accuracy, int and perception, is from the official news-thread about fighters and barbarians where Josh posted. 
 
And here's the kicker - where have you read that Josh's intention is to create a game-y system over one that makes narrative sense? Or a stat system that is 100% removed from dialogue and narrative as a principle?
 
That is what your suggestion for improvement is. And the tendency to go that route certainly is there with the latest patch. But where does that come from? And how are you able to rationalize it..?
 

Because the attribute system revolves around balance in combat. This stuff is only important for Dialogue and Scripted Interactions. And it already does what it's supposed to do there.

So again, that perception helps with interrupts. And that intellect helps with more severe criticals, part of which is simply adding direct health damage it seems. Just as resolve helps any class resist interruption -- is not only not existent in your retelling of how the system works. You also want to specifically remove the importance of these in the stat-makeup at character creation, unless you specifically want a character to do only dialogue.

 

Until the idea apparently is to maximize the combat relevance of "dialogue only stats", while removing the narrative consistency completely.
 
Again. Why would you want that? What does it accomplish? Other than allowing max-min builds based on Might to function without severe penalties and draw-backs in terms of party wipes, I mean.
 

Well you're flailing your arms around ignoring the actual reasons for things, and making your own up due to your negative experience with ... what game was it ? Gears of War or something.

So where did I make up anything? As you admit, INT and PER as well as RES are..were relevant in combat, and they were relevant before the patch as per design. It was relevant, even though YOUR and Matt's suggestion denies it is from the outset, or assumes it's not there. It was also narratively consistent with how the characters could be role-played, and allowed, like I specifically explained, for example the int and perception based fighter to exist. It would also allow the truly fanatical paladin who could ignore wounds and keep going with his blessing. He would be no superman, but have solid faith literally sustaining him (the character would again be easy to role-play into the dialogue system - he gains solid reputations, he is not swayed by arguments, he is favoring the consistent honesty approaches, etc). It would allow the clever ranger who is extremely fast and nimble, who almost consistently will have his or her abilities trap or pin the target, although they do little damage outside shapeshifts or buffs. It would allow the slow and fat rogue who rarely gets into position, but can still deal a ton of damage and pick locks. It would allow the dwarven fighter that rely on the class' hardiness but is actually relatively fast and quick for dwarves. Etc., etc. It's endless.

 

And now it's just the same across everything, unless it's predefined in the class, with the added on ability modifiers that favor your and Matt's Might builds. 

 

So with your and matt's suggestion, just as with the curious changes to the current beta - the system changes. Into, by your own admission, a "game-y" system rather than a more narratively consistent one. You admit it, and you are now getting what you want. Although you put the reason for why this should be changed into a game-y system rather than the previous one that made sense (and came out of nowhere I guess) on Josh's design intention.

 

So where, Sensuki, am /I/ making something up?

 

And where did Josh ever signal the intention to make a stat and combat system that had no relation to the narrative? It's the opposite of what he's been saying from the beginning. It's also the opposite of what the first system was and so successfully accomplished that I hardly didn't believe my ears when some of you started complaining.

 

And that's been my problem with your mangling here - you make this entire thing up out of whole cloth, put in something that seems familiar from the IE games, and convince yourself that it somehow fits with what was the "true intention". And you flail and cry at everyone who points that out. We make things up, we don't know what we're talking about, and we haven't made 50 hours of video or made a pdf with our explanations of how things should be. And Josh agrees with you, even though I have no idea where that comes from.

 

But you're the one in the right, because you say so.

 

Look, I don't know whose ear you're having at Obsidian, I don't care how you're gaining exclusivity on the feedback here. Just please stop doing it. 

 

Or maybe have yourself and Matt put on the credits for the game as "The people who mangled the stat system and convinced us that everyone wanted this and that it fit with the game as the kickstarter pledge said". That'd be perfectly fine as well.

 

But I don't want that system. If you spelled out what you wanted instead of insisting you're intending and accomplishing the opposite of what you're actually doing for the sake of promoting it, I seriously doubt you would have many others want the system as well. But at least I don't want a system that is disconnected to role-playing the character. If you want that, you can write a mod and play the game that way yourself. Hell, just maximize the abilities and give you a million stat points and shut up about it, I don't care! 

 

And if you force the rest of us to play your system as well, I'll have you credited, one way or the other, for doing that after the game releases. And I'll have Obsidian raked over the fire for tossing out a well-working system because they put the loudest fans ahead of the design-intention they had. Because I won't have much entertainment value from the game, and that's how I'll get the return from my evidently wasted pledge money.



#53
nipsen

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At the moment the character-building system in poE is like a complex joke only Josh and a few of his admirers seem to understand. The shills on this forum who dig it might be happy but trust me the rest of the gaming population are about to brew up a big cauldron of WTF once this hits the streets.

 

Happily, it's not too late to change it.

Then by all means, monte - do tell us where you picked up that the system until the current build didn't make sense.

 

Was it, perhaps, here on the forum?



#54
Sensuki

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And here's the kicker - where have you read that Josh's intention is to create a game-y system over one that makes narrative sense? Or a stat system that is 100% removed from dialogue and narrative as a principle?


His posts here, His posts on Something Awful, his posts on badgame.net, his Tumblr and Twitter, his interviews (including the RPGCodex Q&A 2013 where he first revealed what he wanted to do with the attribute system).

So again, that perception helps with interrupts.


In PE BB v301 Attribute System Perception no longer helps with Interrupts.

In the "Sensuki&Matt516 system" Perception still affects Interrupt, but it also affects Accuracy now too because Interrupt relies on the Accuracy score to be effective, therefore making an Interrupt based build a good build.

And that intellect helps with more severe criticals, part of which is simply adding direct health damage it seems.


Intellect doesn't help with more severe criticals, it increases your Deflection thereby reducing the chance of being critted. In the old system, Intellect did not do anything to critical hits, it increased the base duration of abilities, which has nothing to do with attack damage. Not sure where you're getting at with that.

You also want to specifically remove the importance of these in the stat-makeup at character creation, unless you specifically want a character to do only dialogue.


No. I don't know where you're getting this idea from, it's just something you are imagining.

Until the idea apparently is to maximize the combat relevance of "dialogue only stats", while removing the narrative consistency completely.


There are no dialogue only stats.

Again. Why would you want that? What does it accomplish? Other than allowing max-min builds based on Might to function without severe penalties and draw-backs in terms of party wipes, I mean.


All Attributes will probably be used pretty equally in dialogue. Attribute design needs to be balanced in the dialogue system SEPARATELY to how it is balanced for combat. In other systems they are both taken into account, but not in Pillars of Eternity, they are separate systems.

As you admit, INT and PER as well as RES are..were relevant in combat, and they were relevant before the patch as per design.


Intellect was fine but Perception and Resolve were completely dumpable in combat. You might not have thought so but pretty much everyone else did, including the developers. They do something, but the bonus is not great on it's own and High Perception combined with Low Accuracy is a trap build. Your Interrupt is not useful if you are only missing and grazing.

It was also narratively consistent with how the characters could be role-played


Our version is no different in this regard IMO, but I couldn't care less about roleplaying though, I'm more interested in the combat systems.

And now it's just the same across everything, unless it's predefined in the class, with the added on ability modifiers that favor your and Matt's Might builds.


No it's not.
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#55
illathid

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Nipsen, Josh stated that stats should be more handy than simulationist, but so far hasn't said anything about thier narrative standing.

Are you conflating simulationism with narrative? Because the two are very different and I don't see how the new stats lack narrative consistency.

Also, if you're upset with the changes you shouldn't blame Matt and Sensuki too much. Shortly after they posted their paper Josh said he had already been working on a similar changes to the stats himself. So we probably would have gotten the same or very similar changes this update even if they hadn't posted anything.

#56
Sensuki

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So with your and matt's suggestion, just as with the curious changes to the current beta - the system changes. Into, by your own admission, a "game-y" system rather than a more narratively consistent one. You admit it, and you are now getting what you want. Although you put the reason for why this should be changed into a game-y system rather than the previous one that made sense (and came out of nowhere I guess) on Josh's design intention.


Our system aims for balance of the mechanical benefits that each attribute gives.

Attribute Design in Pillars of Eternity is not how I would design them if I was going to make a D&D style game. Our design tries to find the best balance within the constraints of our understanding of the design goals that Josh has laid out.
 

And where did Josh ever signal the intention to make a stat and combat system that had no relation to the narrative? It's the opposite of what he's been saying from the beginning. It's also the opposite of what the first system was and so successfully accomplished that I hardly didn't believe my ears when some of you started complaining.


http://www.rpgcodex....ent.php?id=9059
 

Infinitron has an exclusive request:
I'd like us to try to get a Kodeks Eksklusive look at Project Eternity's ability scores in this Q&A. We know they already exist. Let's see how crazy they are.

Josh: The specific list may change, but the biggest difference players will notice in Attributes (compared to A/D&D ability scores) is that all of their bonuses are uniformly applied instead of being keyed to specific types of weapons or attacks. E.g. one Attribute affects bonus damage (and healing) and one affects bonus accuracy -- regardless of the weapons or spells being used.

We would like your character concepts to be viable regardless of how you distribute your Attributes. Part of our solution for this is decoupling things like Attribute-based accuracy and damage bonuses from specific types of gear or class abilities. The focus of your character may change based on how you shift the points around, but we want to avoid setting up "must-have" and "must-dump" stats.
‚Äč


Here is some info from the Attribute System first revision in late 2013:
 

Strength affects your Health and number of inventory slots. Constitution affects Stamina. Dexterity affects Accuracy. Perception affects Critical Damage. Intellect affects Damage and Healing. Resolve affects Durations and AoE size. We may slightly shift these, but this is what we will be working with in the foreseeable future.

Each defense (other than Deflection) is equally influenced by two stats. Aside from level, the attributes that contribute to each defense are the primary determining factors of that defense. Class (now) rarely has a large influence on a character's defenses.

Fortitude - Strength and Constitution
Reflexes - Dexterity and Perception
Willpower - Intellect and Resolve

Deflection is the exception to this. While Fort/Ref/Will share roughly equal time in defending characters, Deflection is the most commonly-attacked defense. It is not influenced by any attribute and is mostly determined by level and class. Characters like fighters and paladins have great base Deflection. Characters like priests and wizards do not.


Does Intellect Damage and Healing make narrative sense to you?

Combat and Narrative (Dialogue/Scripted Interactions) are different. You are starting to sound like smudboy who thinks that Turn based combat is worse than RTwP because it makes less "narrative sense".
 

Look, I don't know whose ear you're having at Obsidian, I don't care how you're gaining exclusivity on the feedback here. Just please stop doing it.


I don't have anybody's ear. I don't have exclusivity on feedback. And I will not stop doing anything that I am doing. You will just have to suffer my presence.
 

And if you force the rest of us to play your system as well


Our system wasn't used. I made it into a mod. I do not care what they do for attributes now, as I can just make whatever I want into a mod. If you want the original system I can mod it back in for you and send you the link.


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#57
Sensuki

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http://forums.obsidi...dpost&p=1508219

This will sound like BS, but just before lunch, I wrote this chart on my board:
 
3EIRkOa.jpg

 
2) Accuracy makes as much, if not more, sense on Perception as it would on Dexterity.

3) Dexterity should modify Action Speed by 2% per point.

 
Here is proof that they were already going to add in Action Speed into the system before we proposed ours, and they were also going to move Accuracy to Perception.
 
Deflection was not added into the attribute system because of our paper, but because the community wanted it. It was not solely because of Mine and Matt's paper. People had been asking for attribute based Deflection for a while because AC was in the IE games system. There were only a few people (such as Karkarov) who didn't want it.

Edited by Sensuki, 28 September 2014 - 09:34 AM.

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#58
Hellraiser789

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Yeah I know. Point is that the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Perception (aka 1 Accuracy) is (in general) higher than the marginal % DPS increase from 1 point in Might when and only when the enemy's Deflection is higher than your Accuracy. Once your Accuracy gets above 5 greater than their Deflection, Might starts being worth more (a LOT more).

 

A bit behind, but wouldnt this require Might to rely heavily on Perception? Because if your accuracy relies on Perception, and Might is only better if your accuracy is higher, that means Might relies on Perception right? Or does the boost in Perception not make as much a difference as your class's base accuracy? Also, are there currently any other ways to improve accuracy other than Perception? And does your accuracy get better as you level up?

 

Sorry for so many questions - dont have the beta so I cant test this stuff myself.



#59
Sensuki

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Accuracy doesn't rely on Perception. The Accuracy bonus from Perception is added to your Accuracy score. The bonus you get from Perception is actually pretty small compared to what you get from Class, Progression, Items and Buffs.

Might does not scale with level, and Might gives a higher per point bonus than Perception does to DPS if ACC-DEF = +6 or higher.

#60
Hellraiser789

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Accuracy doesn't rely on Perception. The Accuracy bonus from Perception is added to your Accuracy score. The bonus you get from Perception is actually pretty small compared to what you get from Class, Progression, Items and Buffs.

Might does not scale with level, and Might gives a higher per point bonus than Perception does to DPS if ACC-DEF = +6 or higher.

 

Ah, okay. Thanks for helping me understand the system better. 

 

And dont let those guys bother you. We all know you make those suggestions and stuff because you are looking to improve the game and we appreciate all the hard work you've been contributing to the project. Regardless of whether they used your suggestions or not, I'm sure it helps them with considerations and ideas, and if they happen to seem like they listen to you more than others, I'd say its because you present sound and logical conclusions based upon your ideas and understanding of the system. 

 

So keep up the good work!







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